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landing on floats

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Walter Klatt

landing on floats

Post by Walter Klatt » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:15 am

Don't know, Bob, maybe everything is relative, but I don't notice
that tendency with mine. I even do downwind landings as long as
the wind is not too strong. I just make sure I touch down with a
nose high attitude so that only the step contacts first. You
definitely never want the forward part of your float to touch on
initial contact which is true with any floatplane. Even that I
have done, with no bad consequences other than the requirement to
pull back on the stick quickly to keep the bows from digging in.
The old ultralight I used to fly on floats many years ago was
less forgiving than my Rebel and I do remember that nose digging
in feeling on that one. Glassy water is definitely more sticky,
but it is also very easy to slow it down enough and then wait for
it to touch. As long as your nose is up and you touch in the step
area, no problem.

I also land with 1/2 flaps generally, and usually full flaps on
glassy water.

Without flying with you Bob, it's hard for me to say, but my
guess is that you need to hold it off a little longer before
touching down to get your attitude right.

What is your empty c of g on floats, and what is your float angle
of incidence relative to the fuselage floor bottom or bottom of
top window sill? Mine is 10.7 and 2.5 degrees.

Walter
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Bob
Fisher
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 5:08 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: landing on floats


hi guys question? of all the float planes i have
flown over the
past 18 years, the rebel seems to have by far the
greatest tendency to
stop quickly just after landing and lean forward just
as if the brakes
were applied.

am i doing anything wrong ? it seems to get off the
water very
quickly so i believe the angle of the floats is ok weight
distribution?

ideas or similiar experiences tha bob fisher
rebel amphib 342




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Walter Klatt

landing on floats

Post by Walter Klatt » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:15 am

I know what you mean with the nose wheels coming down hard
sometimes. That will happen to me if I let it get too nose high
(slow) when landing on pavement. Normally I fly it on a little
faster and that doesn't happen even when solo and lightly loaded.
Sort of opposite to normal 3 pointers when on wheels.

Walter
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 6:10 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: landing on floats


What I found was when I was by myself and about 1/4 to
3/8 tanks landing on
pavement the nose wheels would slap down pretty
quickly and you couldn't
hold the nose wheels off with elevator. When I added a
passenger and fuller
tanks I could (since they move the c of g back...like
anything you put into
a rebel). SO I tried throwing a gallon of water in
each rear compartment and
I can hold the nose wheels off for a while on roll out
for a nice smooth
transition to 4 wheels down.

On the water in a light chop I was fine without the
ballast, but on glassy
water I thought I was toast...but as Walter is
indicating could be (and may
very well be) technic as well. I had a high time float
pilot tell me "if you
can see the lake in front of you when landing you're
dead!". In otherwords
if you don't have the nose up enough to block your
view you haven't rotated
enough!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Fisher" <rgfisher@zeuter.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 8:15 PM
Subject: Re: landing on floats

do i have to carry this stuff around forever how
be i remove the prop!
fish

how was the meeting today i got stuck here with
company that couldn`t
leave until it was too late
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 8:03 PM
Subject: Re: landing on floats

Bob, put some weight in the back! I added a gallon
(10lbs) of water to
each
rear float compartment and it made a big difference.

First landing I did on glassy water just about
required a change of
pants.
I
went into the shoulder harness so hard I thought I
was going over!
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Fisher" <rgfisher@zeuter.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 8:08 PM
Subject: landing on floats

have flown over the
the greatest tendency to
just as if the
brakes
off the water very
ok weight
fisher rebel amphib 342
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Wayne G. O'Shea

landing on floats

Post by Wayne G. O'Shea » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:15 am

Bob, put some weight in the back! I added a gallon (10lbs) of water to each
rear float compartment and it made a big difference.

First landing I did on glassy water just about required a change of pants. I
went into the shoulder harness so hard I thought I was going over!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Fisher" <rgfisher@zeuter.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 8:08 PM
Subject: landing on floats

hi guys question? of all the float planes i have flown over the
past 18 years, the rebel seems to have by far the greatest tendency to
stop quickly just after landing and lean forward just as if the brakes
were applied.

am i doing anything wrong ? it seems to get off the water very
quickly so i believe the angle of the floats is ok weight
distribution?

ideas or similiar experiences tha bob fisher rebel amphib 342




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Bob Fisher

landing on floats

Post by Bob Fisher » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:15 am

hi guys question? of all the float planes i have flown over the
past 18 years, the rebel seems to have by far the greatest tendency to
stop quickly just after landing and lean forward just as if the brakes
were applied.

am i doing anything wrong ? it seems to get off the water very
quickly so i believe the angle of the floats is ok weight
distribution?

ideas or similiar experiences tha bob fisher rebel amphib 342




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Bob Fisher

landing on floats

Post by Bob Fisher » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:15 am

do i have to carry this stuff around forever how be i remove the prop!
fish

how was the meeting today i got stuck here with company that couldn`t
leave until it was too late
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 8:03 PM
Subject: Re: landing on floats

Bob, put some weight in the back! I added a gallon (10lbs) of water to
each
rear float compartment and it made a big difference.

First landing I did on glassy water just about required a change of pants.
I
went into the shoulder harness so hard I thought I was going over!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Fisher" <rgfisher@zeuter.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 8:08 PM
Subject: landing on floats

hi guys question? of all the float planes i have flown over the
past 18 years, the rebel seems to have by far the greatest tendency to
stop quickly just after landing and lean forward just as if the brakes
were applied.

am i doing anything wrong ? it seems to get off the water very
quickly so i believe the angle of the floats is ok weight
distribution?

ideas or similiar experiences tha bob fisher rebel amphib 342




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Wayne G. O'Shea

landing on floats

Post by Wayne G. O'Shea » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:15 am

What I found was when I was by myself and about 1/4 to 3/8 tanks landing on
pavement the nose wheels would slap down pretty quickly and you couldn't
hold the nose wheels off with elevator. When I added a passenger and fuller
tanks I could (since they move the c of g back...like anything you put into
a rebel). SO I tried throwing a gallon of water in each rear compartment and
I can hold the nose wheels off for a while on roll out for a nice smooth
transition to 4 wheels down.

On the water in a light chop I was fine without the ballast, but on glassy
water I thought I was toast...but as Walter is indicating could be (and may
very well be) technic as well. I had a high time float pilot tell me "if you
can see the lake in front of you when landing you're dead!". In otherwords
if you don't have the nose up enough to block your view you haven't rotated
enough!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Fisher" <rgfisher@zeuter.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 8:15 PM
Subject: Re: landing on floats

do i have to carry this stuff around forever how be i remove the prop!
fish

how was the meeting today i got stuck here with company that couldn`t
leave until it was too late
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 8:03 PM
Subject: Re: landing on floats

Bob, put some weight in the back! I added a gallon (10lbs) of water to
each
rear float compartment and it made a big difference.

First landing I did on glassy water just about required a change of
pants.
I
went into the shoulder harness so hard I thought I was going over!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Fisher" <rgfisher@zeuter.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 8:08 PM
Subject: landing on floats

hi guys question? of all the float planes i have flown over the
past 18 years, the rebel seems to have by far the greatest tendency to
stop quickly just after landing and lean forward just as if the
brakes
were applied.

am i doing anything wrong ? it seems to get off the water very
quickly so i believe the angle of the floats is ok weight
distribution?

ideas or similiar experiences tha bob fisher rebel amphib 342




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Bob Patterson

landing on floats

Post by Bob Patterson » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:15 am

Hi Bob !

Sounds pretty normal - sure makes it easy to get into
small lakes !! ;-)

Couple of thoughts, though ... you might want to put
about 50 lb. at the back of the baggage area if you're solo.
Also, I always used full flap for landing (& take-off) - this means
you should be touching down SLOWLY, with the nose up, and pull back
once it touches - too much speed will increase the nose-over
tendency ... Carrying a bit of power until touchdown can
help get it slowed down, too ....

You're right, though - the Rebel really does come down off
the step & slow down quickly ! It's a bit scary the first time,
but you'll come to love it !! :-) Just haul back quickly !

....bobp

-----------------------------------orig.-------------------
At 08:08 PM 5/16/04 -0400, you wrote:
hi guys question? of all the float planes i have flown over the
past 18 years, the rebel seems to have by far the greatest tendency to
stop quickly just after landing and lean forward just as if the brakes
were applied.

am i doing anything wrong ? it seems to get off the water very
quickly so i believe the angle of the floats is ok weight
distribution?

ideas or similiar experiences tha bob fisher rebel amphib 342




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Bob Fisher

landing on floats

Post by Bob Fisher » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:15 am

thanks guys i think i`m still too flat and a little too fast i`ll just
hold it off a little longer and try gain with an extra person on board
maybe my bride of 37 yrs can be that ballast rr of the c of g!
good advice thanks much fish
----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 8:31 PM
Subject: RE: landing on floats

Don't know, Bob, maybe everything is relative, but I don't notice
that tendency with mine. I even do downwind landings as long as
the wind is not too strong. I just make sure I touch down with a
nose high attitude so that only the step contacts first. You
definitely never want the forward part of your float to touch on
initial contact which is true with any floatplane. Even that I
have done, with no bad consequences other than the requirement to
pull back on the stick quickly to keep the bows from digging in.
The old ultralight I used to fly on floats many years ago was
less forgiving than my Rebel and I do remember that nose digging
in feeling on that one. Glassy water is definitely more sticky,
but it is also very easy to slow it down enough and then wait for
it to touch. As long as your nose is up and you touch in the step
area, no problem.

I also land with 1/2 flaps generally, and usually full flaps on
glassy water.

Without flying with you Bob, it's hard for me to say, but my
guess is that you need to hold it off a little longer before
touching down to get your attitude right.

What is your empty c of g on floats, and what is your float angle
of incidence relative to the fuselage floor bottom or bottom of
top window sill? Mine is 10.7 and 2.5 degrees.

Walter
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Bob
Fisher
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 5:08 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: landing on floats


hi guys question? of all the float planes i have
flown over the
past 18 years, the rebel seems to have by far the
greatest tendency to
stop quickly just after landing and lean forward just
as if the brakes
were applied.

am i doing anything wrong ? it seems to get off the
water very
quickly so i believe the angle of the floats is ok weight
distribution?

ideas or similiar experiences tha bob fisher
rebel amphib 342




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Bob Fisher

landing on floats

Post by Bob Fisher » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:15 am

hi walter about 2.9 degrees i`m not sure about the c of g yet ! i
still have to balance it on a tube and find the point where it balances
when level. fish
----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 8:31 PM
Subject: RE: landing on floats

Don't know, Bob, maybe everything is relative, but I don't notice
that tendency with mine. I even do downwind landings as long as
the wind is not too strong. I just make sure I touch down with a
nose high attitude so that only the step contacts first. You
definitely never want the forward part of your float to touch on
initial contact which is true with any floatplane. Even that I
have done, with no bad consequences other than the requirement to
pull back on the stick quickly to keep the bows from digging in.
The old ultralight I used to fly on floats many years ago was
less forgiving than my Rebel and I do remember that nose digging
in feeling on that one. Glassy water is definitely more sticky,
but it is also very easy to slow it down enough and then wait for
it to touch. As long as your nose is up and you touch in the step
area, no problem.

I also land with 1/2 flaps generally, and usually full flaps on
glassy water.

Without flying with you Bob, it's hard for me to say, but my
guess is that you need to hold it off a little longer before
touching down to get your attitude right.

What is your empty c of g on floats, and what is your float angle
of incidence relative to the fuselage floor bottom or bottom of
top window sill? Mine is 10.7 and 2.5 degrees.

Walter
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Bob
Fisher
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 5:08 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: landing on floats


hi guys question? of all the float planes i have
flown over the
past 18 years, the rebel seems to have by far the
greatest tendency to
stop quickly just after landing and lean forward just
as if the brakes
were applied.

am i doing anything wrong ? it seems to get off the
water very
quickly so i believe the angle of the floats is ok weight
distribution?

ideas or similiar experiences tha bob fisher
rebel amphib 342




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Legeorgen

landing on floats

Post by Legeorgen » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:15 am

I don't have a problem with nosing over in water but I land with a pretty
high nose attitude, the way Walter said and the way my instructor drilled into
be. I landed one time in training with the nose slightly down from the norm and
he was all over me for it. It made an impression on me!

I always land with 1500 RPM on land to give me plenty of elevator for flare.
If I'm landing without power I keep an extra 10 to 15 MPH for the same reason.
Works for me.

Bruce



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Legeorgen

landing on floats

Post by Legeorgen » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:15 am

My angle is 3.5* float to wing. This might be a reason my nose is even higher
on landing.

Bruce



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Walter Klatt

landing on floats

Post by Walter Klatt » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:15 am

At 2.9, you definitely should be able to get the nose higher and
the plane slowed sufficiently before touchdown. Of course, the c
of g matters, too, so hopefully yours is no worse forward than
most of us.

Walter
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Bob
Fisher
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 7:31 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: landing on floats


hi walter about 2.9 degrees i`m not sure about
the c of g yet ! i
still have to balance it on a tube and find the point
where it balances
when level. fish
----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 8:31 PM
Subject: RE: landing on floats

Don't know, Bob, maybe everything is relative, but I
don't notice
that tendency with mine. I even do downwind landings
as long as
the wind is not too strong. I just make sure I touch
down with a
nose high attitude so that only the step contacts first. You
definitely never want the forward part of your float
to touch on
initial contact which is true with any floatplane.
Even that I
have done, with no bad consequences other than the
requirement to
pull back on the stick quickly to keep the bows from
digging in.
The old ultralight I used to fly on floats many years ago was
less forgiving than my Rebel and I do remember that
nose digging
in feeling on that one. Glassy water is definitely
more sticky,
but it is also very easy to slow it down enough and
then wait for
it to touch. As long as your nose is up and you
touch in the step
area, no problem.

I also land with 1/2 flaps generally, and usually
full flaps on
glassy water.

Without flying with you Bob, it's hard for me to say, but my
guess is that you need to hold it off a little longer before
touching down to get your attitude right.

What is your empty c of g on floats, and what is
your float angle
of incidence relative to the fuselage floor bottom
or bottom of
top window sill? Mine is 10.7 and 2.5 degrees.

Walter
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Bob
Fisher
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 5:08 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: landing on floats


hi guys question? of all the float planes i have
flown over the
past 18 years, the rebel seems to have by far the
greatest tendency to
stop quickly just after landing and lean forward just
as if the brakes
were applied.

am i doing anything wrong ? it seems to get off the
water very
quickly so i believe the angle of the floats is ok weight
distribution?

ideas or similiar experiences tha bob fisher
rebel amphib 342




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Walter Klatt

landing on floats

Post by Walter Klatt » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:15 am

3.5 heh, (thought you had 3.0), you really went all out with
yours. Would be interested what that does for your water
take-offs.

You're also right on with the 1500 RPM for power on landings and
extra speed at the flare with no power. For glassy water I go at
1700 which makes for a nice slow descent, although it does really
extend the landing.

Walter
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Legeorgen@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 9:16 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: landing on floats


My angle is 3.5* float to wing. This might be a reason
my nose is even higher
on landing.

Bruce



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Legeorgen

landing on floats

Post by Legeorgen » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:15 am

A smooth glassy water landing done right make it hard to tell the exact
moment when you have landed. I think it's very difficult and you take a risk in
miss judging when you attempt a short glassy water landing.

I always thought I would land to fast carrying power on landing on a runway
but all that drag of floats and rigging slows you down real quick. I find my
float landing at home are no longer (by much) than my straight wheel landings
used to be.

I'm still learning to fly amphibs. I only have 25 hours on a straight float
Supper Cub and 45 on my Rebel amphib. And having a lot of fun too!

The only thing better might be an amphib Moose but on my plane budget right
now I would have to have a real mission for an MP-14 Moose, to justify the
extra expense.


Bruce



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