Starter Problems - O-320

[Rick Harper]

G'day From Down Under Wayne ...

Rick here in SUNNY & HOT OZ !

Yep ... I've been warned that the Skytech starter is prone to "locking
in/on" too !

(and I've just bought one)

Something like/ about the solenoid welding itself ON ... not sure from what
as yet ... gotta ask around some more.

When I find out more I'll let you know.

Also : a while back you asked me about someone doing "outback tours" of OZ
.... I made several enquiries at the time & got no replies ... (I remembered
hearing of the main organizer Bernie Saroff having heart problems)

I subsequently forgot a.....l....l...... about it ,.then found your old
e-mail

... Seeing some more people who know him at our Aviation Barby (BBQ) on
Sunday .... I'll ask them again :)


Rick & Wendy Harper
16 Tor Road
Dee Why
NSW 2099
Australia
Home (02) 9971 7889
Mobile 0416 041 007

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Wayne
G. O'Shea
Sent: Wednesday, 21 January 2004 12:41 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Starter Problems - O-320

Nice sunny day this morning so I plugged in my preheater and headed to the
shop. Squalls were on their way when I poked my head out the door about 4
hours later and wasn't going to miss the opportunity for a quick flight so
pulled the plane out, jumped in and fired her up.

Started right away, but I had that mental feeling something wasn't right.
Amp gauge jumped over to 30A and I brushed it off as the first run in quite
awhile and cold. Volt gauge always needs a light tap to get it off the seat
and then it's fine, but this time it only got to 10volts. Again shrudged it
off as a cold instrument sticking. There I sat for almost 10 minutes letting
everything warm up before heading into the snow. Now I thought I smelled
something odd and wait...what's that weird noise. About 11 minutes into this
the sound became a clanking like the prop/spinner was falling off. I turned
off the mag switch & master to shut down quickly. Got out moved the prop and
found the starter not engaged but just rubbing the flywheel ring. After I
was done calling the Skytec corp every name in the book (82 hrs on this one!
and as I've stated before I love them). I got back in again and turned the
master back on. Didn't dawn on me right away what was happening but the
starter was running when I threw the master switch!! I turned it on and off
a couple times and this quit happening, then got out with a big screwdriver
and pushed the bendix back from the flywheel, turned the mags on -- hand
swung and got in my flight before "winter" returned. Full 13.8V+ as soon as
it started up so everything now fine in this respect.

After the flight I came to the conclusion that the remote starter solenoid
must have stuck in the energized positon. Once the engine started and I
moved the key to Both, the solenoid must have stuck from frost/cold/spark
weld or something and held the starter engaged and running on the flywheel,
causing the 10 volt reading high charge current etc and of course the
expensive part a totally mangled bendix drive on my Skytec 122PM (*#*#(%!!
. I have removed the remote starter relay from my firewall and am replacing
with a new one while the local electric motor rebuilder has a go at my
starter drive.

Other than sharing my shitty day and the advise that when it just doesn't
look/feel/smell right it probably isn't....has anyone else ever had this
happen to you and is there any experience with or chance that my
OFF/R/L/BOTH/START key switch was the culprit and the internals of the
switch stayed connected to the start circuit even though I had turned it to
both and actually all the way back to OFF and the starter would run when the
master was turned on. Would hate to get my starter back on with a new remote
starter relay and have this happen again if someone else on here has ever
had the mag switch start postion stick I'd sure like to know. I guess
another option is to do some rewiring and just get rid of the start solenoid
and strictly use the one on the starter.

Thanks,
Wayne



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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Picked up my overhauled 12-122LS Skytec starter today! Huge bill of $72cdn +
tax. $40 labour/$18 for new drive and $14 for a set of brushes. Sure alot
better than the $354US + shipping for a new one!

Anyone interested ...for reference the drive # is 1.01.0623.1 ...but of
course I don't know from whom, but your rebuilder would probably recognize
the #/supplier and the fact that it's a Ford Permanent Magnet starter
wrapped up inside a Skytec casting.

One interesting thing was found when bench testing the Skytec (and it's not
something the overhaul caused ...as I have a 12-149PM here as well - brand
new in box and it does the same thing!). With the jumper wire in place to
auto engage the solenoid... when power is removed after the starter is up to
speed ..the drive is slow to retract and doesn't really do so until the
thing quits spinning and then it clicks back. Seems that the starter...
while coasting to a stop makes enough power (or inductance) to back feed the
solenoid and hold it out. If you remove the jumper and use it to pull the
solenoid in and disconnect it to shut down, the drive snaps back immediately
while still spinning.... as you have removed the coil from this "feed back".

Starting to think it might be a good idea to remove the jumper and bring
power direct to both the remote solenoid and the starter solenoid lugs. Then
use the start switch circuit that pulls in the remote solenoid as it was
(since the existing switch/CB/wire can't handle the 35A-50millisecond spike
of the starter solenoid) except that instead of the high load output from
this remote solenoid feeding the high load lug on the starter..feed the
internal solenoid input on the starter from it with a #10 wire to get the
quick snap back on the drive to lessen the chances of it staying out on the
ring gear. This will leave the ability to "idiot light" the remote output
wire that feeds the starter solenoid so if the remote contactor ever welds I
will know the starter is going to run. Unfortunately now that power is feed
directly to the starts big lug... if the contactor in the starter solenoid
itself welds together the starter will run steady once the master is turned
on and the idiot light will not come on! Maybe forget the idiot light all
together and just remember what High charging current - Low voltage reading
means on the gauges next time. I'm sure I won't forget anytime soon!

All comments/advise/wives tails welcome!!

Thanks,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 9:42 PM
Subject: Re: Starter Problems - O-320

One question though. How will you know if the integral starter contactor
has welded? You won't have any electrical system indications or noise as
I understand it. I guess it is not a problem as long as the starter
drive retracts properly.

Pretty sure my Subaru one will have noise because if the contactor welds
it will try to hold the drive gear engaged according to what I
understand of the diagrams. I plan to take it apart and check that
though when I check the contact condition. The thing is that I don't
want to use an extra contactor if it could mask such a condition until
after I'm airborne. I might be happier with a 40 amp relay to drive the
solenoid instead of a large remote contactor to switch the main current.

Bob has many evenings worth of excellant reading there on his site.
I especially like the stuff on voltage spikes.

Ken

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Yep, the idiot light will still help even if the contactor on the

starter

welds together. As long as the remote is still functioning properly the
starter will shut off as soon as I let go of the key. IF the light stays

on

I know the remote has welded together and the starter is going to run

then

for sure (if welded together or I leave the jumper on it). Thanks for

the

link Ken!

Wayne

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

No David! What I was stating is that the internals of the Skytec LS and PM
starters are simply an off the shelf Ford Permanent Magnet starter stuffed
into a new casting to fit the Lycoming!

Not going to touch your wife's "tail"!! )

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Ricker" <ricker@inherentsys.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 7:57 PM
Subject: Re: Starter Problems - O-320

Wives tails??? Wayne, where are you going with that? (your PC spell &

grammar

checker is in the mail....) ;^0

OK, back on topic, a few days ago you mentioned using one of the Ford

starters

and saving the $354US for the SkyTec, what did you have in mond here or

did you

mean when it comes time to re-build a worn out one?

Cheers,

Dave R
www.elite583.cjb.net, no starter yet, heck, no engine yet either!

"Wayne G. O'Shea" wrote:

Picked up my overhauled 12-122LS Skytec starter today! Huge bill of

$72cdn +

tax. $40 labour/$18 for new drive and $14 for a set of brushes. Sure

alot

better than the $354US + shipping for a new one!

Anyone interested ...for reference the drive # is 1.01.0623.1 ...but of
course I don't know from whom, but your rebuilder would probably

recognize

the #/supplier and the fact that it's a Ford Permanent Magnet starter
wrapped up inside a Skytec casting.

One interesting thing was found when bench testing the Skytec (and it's

not

something the overhaul caused ...as I have a 12-149PM here as well -

brand

new in box and it does the same thing!). With the jumper wire in place

to

auto engage the solenoid... when power is removed after the starter is

up to

speed ..the drive is slow to retract and doesn't really do so until the
thing quits spinning and then it clicks back. Seems that the starter...
while coasting to a stop makes enough power (or inductance) to back feed

the

solenoid and hold it out. If you remove the jumper and use it to pull

the

solenoid in and disconnect it to shut down, the drive snaps back

immediately

while still spinning.... as you have removed the coil from this "feed

back".

Starting to think it might be a good idea to remove the jumper and bring
power direct to both the remote solenoid and the starter solenoid lugs.

Then

use the start switch circuit that pulls in the remote solenoid as it was
(since the existing switch/CB/wire can't handle the 35A-50millisecond

spike

of the starter solenoid) except that instead of the high load output

from

this remote solenoid feeding the high load lug on the starter..feed the
internal solenoid input on the starter from it with a #10 wire to get

the

quick snap back on the drive to lessen the chances of it staying out on

the

ring gear. This will leave the ability to "idiot light" the remote

output

wire that feeds the starter solenoid so if the remote contactor ever

welds I

will know the starter is going to run. Unfortunately now that power is

feed

directly to the starts big lug... if the contactor in the starter

solenoid

itself welds together the starter will run steady once the master is

turned

on and the idiot light will not come on! Maybe forget the idiot light

all

together and just remember what High charging current - Low voltage

reading

means on the gauges next time. I'm sure I won't forget anytime soon!

All comments/advise/wives tails welcome!!

Thanks,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 9:42 PM
Subject: Re: Starter Problems - O-320

One question though. How will you know if the integral starter

contactor

has welded? You won't have any electrical system indications or noise

as

I understand it. I guess it is not a problem as long as the starter
drive retracts properly.

Pretty sure my Subaru one will have noise because if the contactor

welds

it will try to hold the drive gear engaged according to what I
understand of the diagrams. I plan to take it apart and check that
though when I check the contact condition. The thing is that I don't
want to use an extra contactor if it could mask such a condition until
after I'm airborne. I might be happier with a 40 amp relay to drive

the

solenoid instead of a large remote contactor to switch the main

current.

Bob has many evenings worth of excellant reading there on his site.
I especially like the stuff on voltage spikes.

Ken

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

starter

the

stays

on

run

then

for

the

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--
David A. Ricker
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada

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[David Ricker]

Wives tails??? Wayne, where are you going with that? (your PC spell & grammar
checker is in the mail....) ;^0

OK, back on topic, a few days ago you mentioned using one of the Ford starters
and saving the $354US for the SkyTec, what did you have in mond here or did you
mean when it comes time to re-build a worn out one?

Cheers,

Dave R
www.elite583.cjb.net, no starter yet, heck, no engine yet either!

"Wayne G. O'Shea" wrote:

Picked up my overhauled 12-122LS Skytec starter today! Huge bill of $72cdn +
tax. $40 labour/$18 for new drive and $14 for a set of brushes. Sure alot
better than the $354US + shipping for a new one!

Anyone interested ...for reference the drive # is 1.01.0623.1 ...but of
course I don't know from whom, but your rebuilder would probably recognize
the #/supplier and the fact that it's a Ford Permanent Magnet starter
wrapped up inside a Skytec casting.

One interesting thing was found when bench testing the Skytec (and it's not
something the overhaul caused ...as I have a 12-149PM here as well - brand
new in box and it does the same thing!). With the jumper wire in place to
auto engage the solenoid... when power is removed after the starter is up to
speed ..the drive is slow to retract and doesn't really do so until the
thing quits spinning and then it clicks back. Seems that the starter...
while coasting to a stop makes enough power (or inductance) to back feed the
solenoid and hold it out. If you remove the jumper and use it to pull the
solenoid in and disconnect it to shut down, the drive snaps back immediately
while still spinning.... as you have removed the coil from this "feed back".

Starting to think it might be a good idea to remove the jumper and bring
power direct to both the remote solenoid and the starter solenoid lugs. Then
use the start switch circuit that pulls in the remote solenoid as it was
(since the existing switch/CB/wire can't handle the 35A-50millisecond spike
of the starter solenoid) except that instead of the high load output from
this remote solenoid feeding the high load lug on the starter..feed the
internal solenoid input on the starter from it with a #10 wire to get the
quick snap back on the drive to lessen the chances of it staying out on the
ring gear. This will leave the ability to "idiot light" the remote output
wire that feeds the starter solenoid so if the remote contactor ever welds I
will know the starter is going to run. Unfortunately now that power is feed
directly to the starts big lug... if the contactor in the starter solenoid
itself welds together the starter will run steady once the master is turned
on and the idiot light will not come on! Maybe forget the idiot light all
together and just remember what High charging current - Low voltage reading
means on the gauges next time. I'm sure I won't forget anytime soon!

All comments/advise/wives tails welcome!!

Thanks,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 9:42 PM
Subject: Re: Starter Problems - O-320

One question though. How will you know if the integral starter contactor
has welded? You won't have any electrical system indications or noise as
I understand it. I guess it is not a problem as long as the starter
drive retracts properly.

Pretty sure my Subaru one will have noise because if the contactor welds
it will try to hold the drive gear engaged according to what I
understand of the diagrams. I plan to take it apart and check that
though when I check the contact condition. The thing is that I don't
want to use an extra contactor if it could mask such a condition until
after I'm airborne. I might be happier with a 40 amp relay to drive the
solenoid instead of a large remote contactor to switch the main current.

Bob has many evenings worth of excellant reading there on his site.
I especially like the stuff on voltage spikes.

Ken

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Yep, the idiot light will still help even if the contactor on the

starter

welds together. As long as the remote is still functioning properly the
starter will shut off as soon as I let go of the key. IF the light stays

on

I know the remote has welded together and the starter is going to run

then

for sure (if welded together or I leave the jumper on it). Thanks for

the

link Ken!

Wayne

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--
David A. Ricker
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada





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[Drew Dalgleish]

Hi Wayne
Seems to me something like an automotive headlight relay switch to drive
the starter solenoid would work. I'm using a toyota starter that I bought
at the junkyard. It still had a short peice of #8 or 10 wire attached so I
just used the same wired through a heavy duty push button switch.
Drew Dalgleish




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[Legeorgen]

That's what I'd do Wayne...just remember what a high charge low voltage
reading on the gauge means, next time. It's to much work for what it's worth to
rewire and idiot light proof the starter/solinoid. Go fly and have fun!

Bruce G



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[klehman]

Wayne

You might want to look at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Ap ... 22-23h.dwg
which is a reference for what I mentioned earlier regarding a fix for
run on with PM starters. As you have surmised this approach would stop
the run on and also allow use of a small relay instead of a remote
contactor if you wanted. A known problem and solution anyway. If you
can't display the .dwg file, it essentially is just a 20 amp relay in
series with a fuselink (short piece of light guage wire) wired across
the starter terminals to replace that shorting wire between the main
current terminal and the solenoid terminal. Bob calls it a starter
run-on relay but it also removes the solenoid surge current from the
starter switch if you choose not to use a remote contactor.

Incidently circuit breakers are so slow acting that I suspect a 10 amp
c/b would be fine to power most integral starter solenoids. The inrush
current would be hard on the start switch as you noted but cars seem to
do OK with that arrangement with fairly moderate contacts. I would not
hesitate to wire such a circuit with a 18 or 20 ga. wire appropriate for
the c/b.

Ken

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Picked up my overhauled 12-122LS Skytec starter today! Huge bill of $72cdn +
tax. $40 labour/$18 for new drive and $14 for a set of brushes. Sure alot
better than the $354US + shipping for a new one!

Anyone interested ...for reference the drive # is 1.01.0623.1 ...but of
course I don't know from whom, but your rebuilder would probably recognize
the #/supplier and the fact that it's a Ford Permanent Magnet starter
wrapped up inside a Skytec casting.

One interesting thing was found when bench testing the Skytec (and it's not
something the overhaul caused ...as I have a 12-149PM here as well - brand
new in box and it does the same thing!). With the jumper wire in place to
auto engage the solenoid... when power is removed after the starter is up to
speed ..the drive is slow to retract and doesn't really do so until the
thing quits spinning and then it clicks back. Seems that the starter...
while coasting to a stop makes enough power (or inductance) to back feed the
solenoid and hold it out. If you remove the jumper and use it to pull the
solenoid in and disconnect it to shut down, the drive snaps back immediately
while still spinning.... as you have removed the coil from this "feed back".

Starting to think it might be a good idea to remove the jumper and bring
power direct to both the remote solenoid and the starter solenoid lugs. Then
use the start switch circuit that pulls in the remote solenoid as it was
(since the existing switch/CB/wire can't handle the 35A-50millisecond spike
of the starter solenoid) except that instead of the high load output from
this remote solenoid feeding the high load lug on the starter..feed the
internal solenoid input on the starter from it with a #10 wire to get the
quick snap back on the drive to lessen the chances of it staying out on the
ring gear. This will leave the ability to "idiot light" the remote output
wire that feeds the starter solenoid so if the remote contactor ever welds I
will know the starter is going to run. Unfortunately now that power is feed
directly to the starts big lug... if the contactor in the starter solenoid
itself welds together the starter will run steady once the master is turned
on and the idiot light will not come on! Maybe forget the idiot light all
together and just remember what High charging current - Low voltage reading
means on the gauges next time. I'm sure I won't forget anytime soon!

All comments/advise/wives tails welcome!!

Thanks,
Wayne

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[David Ricker]

Good, I'm glad we got that straightened out!! )))

Dav

"Wayne G. O'Shea" wrote:

No David! What I was stating is that the internals of the Skytec LS and PM
starters are simply an off the shelf Ford Permanent Magnet starter stuffed
into a new casting to fit the Lycoming!

Not going to touch your wife's "tail"!! )

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Ricker" <ricker@inherentsys.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 7:57 PM
Subject: Re: Starter Problems - O-320

Wives tails??? Wayne, where are you going with that? (your PC spell &

grammar

checker is in the mail....) ;^0

OK, back on topic, a few days ago you mentioned using one of the Ford

starters

and saving the $354US for the SkyTec, what did you have in mond here or

did you

mean when it comes time to re-build a worn out one?

Cheers,

Dave R
www.elite583.cjb.net, no starter yet, heck, no engine yet either!

"Wayne G. O'Shea" wrote:

Picked up my overhauled 12-122LS Skytec starter today! Huge bill of

$72cdn +

tax. $40 labour/$18 for new drive and $14 for a set of brushes. Sure

alot

better than the $354US + shipping for a new one!

Anyone interested ...for reference the drive # is 1.01.0623.1 ...but of
course I don't know from whom, but your rebuilder would probably

recognize

the #/supplier and the fact that it's a Ford Permanent Magnet starter
wrapped up inside a Skytec casting.

One interesting thing was found when bench testing the Skytec (and it's

not

something the overhaul caused ...as I have a 12-149PM here as well -

brand

new in box and it does the same thing!). With the jumper wire in place

to

auto engage the solenoid... when power is removed after the starter is

up to

speed ..the drive is slow to retract and doesn't really do so until the
thing quits spinning and then it clicks back. Seems that the starter...
while coasting to a stop makes enough power (or inductance) to back feed

the

solenoid and hold it out. If you remove the jumper and use it to pull

the

solenoid in and disconnect it to shut down, the drive snaps back

immediately

while still spinning.... as you have removed the coil from this "feed

back".

Starting to think it might be a good idea to remove the jumper and bring
power direct to both the remote solenoid and the starter solenoid lugs.

Then

use the start switch circuit that pulls in the remote solenoid as it was
(since the existing switch/CB/wire can't handle the 35A-50millisecond

spike

of the starter solenoid) except that instead of the high load output

from

this remote solenoid feeding the high load lug on the starter..feed the
internal solenoid input on the starter from it with a #10 wire to get

the

quick snap back on the drive to lessen the chances of it staying out on

the

ring gear. This will leave the ability to "idiot light" the remote

output

wire that feeds the starter solenoid so if the remote contactor ever

welds I

will know the starter is going to run. Unfortunately now that power is

feed

directly to the starts big lug... if the contactor in the starter

solenoid

itself welds together the starter will run steady once the master is

turned

on and the idiot light will not come on! Maybe forget the idiot light

all

together and just remember what High charging current - Low voltage

reading

means on the gauges next time. I'm sure I won't forget anytime soon!

All comments/advise/wives tails welcome!!

Thanks,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 9:42 PM
Subject: Re: Starter Problems - O-320

contactor

as

welds

the

current.

starter

the

stays

on

run

then

for

the

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

I'm thinking forget the whole idiot light thing as well, but still concerned
about the speed of the drive kicking back once the engine starts. Seems a
good enough reason to go the route of energizing the integral solenoid via
the remote solenoid (since I splurged the $15 on a new one already) and this
is really the same idea as the small relay as Ken and Drew have posted. I
know the CB's would handle the quick spike (although I think I only have a
5A in my panel) but not too keen on testing how many starts I get before I
cook the mag switch at $140US for the Bendix and $70US for the ACS rip off.

Thanks guys... I'm going to try and put it all back together tomorrow,
but -24*C doesn't sound like to much fun in the hangar ...so might wait for
what's supposed to be -8C on Tuesday.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <Legeorgen@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: Starter Problems - O-320

That's what I'd do Wayne...just remember what a high charge low voltage
reading on the gauge means, next time. It's to much work for what it's

worth to

rewire and idiot light proof the starter/solinoid. Go fly and have fun!

Bruce G

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