Starter Problems - O-320

[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Nice sunny day this morning so I plugged in my preheater and headed to the
shop. Squalls were on their way when I poked my head out the door about 4
hours later and wasn't going to miss the opportunity for a quick flight so
pulled the plane out, jumped in and fired her up.

Started right away, but I had that mental feeling something wasn't right.
Amp gauge jumped over to 30A and I brushed it off as the first run in quite
awhile and cold. Volt gauge always needs a light tap to get it off the seat
and then it's fine, but this time it only got to 10volts. Again shrudged it
off as a cold instrument sticking. There I sat for almost 10 minutes letting
everything warm up before heading into the snow. Now I thought I smelled
something odd and wait...what's that weird noise. About 11 minutes into this
the sound became a clanking like the prop/spinner was falling off. I turned
off the mag switch & master to shut down quickly. Got out moved the prop and
found the starter not engaged but just rubbing the flywheel ring. After I
was done calling the Skytec corp every name in the book (82 hrs on this one!
and as I've stated before I love them). I got back in again and turned the
master back on. Didn't dawn on me right away what was happening but the
starter was running when I threw the master switch!! I turned it on and off
a couple times and this quit happening, then got out with a big screwdriver
and pushed the bendix back from the flywheel, turned the mags on -- hand
swung and got in my flight before "winter" returned. Full 13.8V+ as soon as
it started up so everything now fine in this respect.

After the flight I came to the conclusion that the remote starter solenoid
must have stuck in the energized positon. Once the engine started and I
moved the key to Both, the solenoid must have stuck from frost/cold/spark
weld or something and held the starter engaged and running on the flywheel,
causing the 10 volt reading high charge current etc and of course the
expensive part a totally mangled bendix drive on my Skytec 122PM (*#*#(%!!
. I have removed the remote starter relay from my firewall and am replacing
with a new one while the local electric motor rebuilder has a go at my
starter drive.

Other than sharing my shitty day and the advise that when it just doesn't
look/feel/smell right it probably isn't....has anyone else ever had this
happen to you and is there any experience with or chance that my
OFF/R/L/BOTH/START key switch was the culprit and the internals of the
switch stayed connected to the start circuit even though I had turned it to
both and actually all the way back to OFF and the starter would run when the
master was turned on. Would hate to get my starter back on with a new remote
starter relay and have this happen again if someone else on here has ever
had the mag switch start postion stick I'd sure like to know. I guess
another option is to do some rewiring and just get rid of the start solenoid
and strictly use the one on the starter.

Thanks,
Wayne



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[Don Boardman]

Hi Wayne,

Sorry to hear about your bad day.
Makes me sort of glad we have air start in the Moose.

I would suggest that you send a copy of your account of today's events to:

aeroelectric-list@matronics.com

and subscribe to the aeroelectric list at:

http://www.matronics.com/subscription

Bob Nuckolls who has the:

http://www.aeroelectric.com/

and others have been very helpful with support on the wiring of the Moose
which I am currently neck deep into.

I think a potential senario just like yours has been a topic of discussion
within the last year or so.

You may already be aware of aeroelectric, thought I'd speak up in case you
didn't.

Hope tomorrow is a better day,
Don B.




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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Thanks Don! Have had a few personal emails on this with one being whether I
had a diode on the solenoid. Yes to that one... as it comes with all new key
mag switches with a start position. Going to make sure it's still doing it's
job before I install the new solenoid though.

I also had a VERY GOOD suggestion from a guy on supercub.org, which I am
going to include in every panel now (AND SUGGEST TO EVERYONE ELSE as well),
for a light to show that the starter wire is energized. Simply a light bulb
hooked to the big wire going to the starter. This would have saved me a lot
of grief today, as I could not hear it running engaged to the flywheel (the
old starters used to make a hell of a racket when they stuck, but maybe the
fact that the starter was running helped quiet things). It wasn't until the
bendix had internally disintegrated (after 10 minutes of staying energized)
that it got kicked off the flywheel and was just skipping and clanging along
the ring that I heard things. Hoping my local guy can do the $15 miracle (as
he has for older starters I've taken him like my original O-235 starter
O/H'd with new bushings etc for $19cdn in 1994!!)) so I don't have to shell
out $354us for a new one!

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Boardman" <dboardm3@twcny.rr.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 10:48 PM
Subject: Re: Starter Problems - O-320

Hi Wayne,

Sorry to hear about your bad day.
Makes me sort of glad we have air start in the Moose.

I would suggest that you send a copy of your account of today's events to:

aeroelectric-list@matronics.com

and subscribe to the aeroelectric list at:

http://www.matronics.com/subscription

Bob Nuckolls who has the:

http://www.aeroelectric.com/

and others have been very helpful with support on the wiring of the Moose
which I am currently neck deep into.

I think a potential senario just like yours has been a topic of discussion
within the last year or so.

You may already be aware of aeroelectric, thought I'd speak up in case you
didn't.

Hope tomorrow is a better day,
Don B.

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[Don Boardman]

Hi Wayne,

I also had a VERY GOOD suggestion from a guy on supercub.org, which I am
going to include in every panel now (AND SUGGEST TO EVERYONE ELSE as well),
for a light to show that the starter wire is energized. Simply a light bulb
hooked to the big wire going to the starter. This would have saved me a lot
of grief today,

This item has also been suggested as a good idea on the aeroelectric list.
You might search their archives for discussion on the topic of what happen
to you today.

Don B.



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[Brian Lawson]

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 22:54:02 -0500, you wrote:
SNIP

I also had a VERY GOOD suggestion from a guy on supercub.org, which I am
going to include in every panel now (AND SUGGEST TO EVERYONE ELSE as

well),

for a light to show that the starter wire is energized. Simply a light

bulb

hooked to the big wire going to the starter.

MORE SNIP
Hey Wayne,

Yep, sorry to hear that you've had a problem.

I can't speak for your airplane starter, but "stuck Bendix" in
automotive is almost always a mechanical fault, rather than
electrical. Still, the bulb sounds like a good simple idea. Is it
fused right at the solenoid?

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.



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[klehman]

My conclusions on this is slightly different than the prevailing view on
the aeroelectric list. IF you have a remote starter contactor then you
really should have a starter engaged light to tell you if the remote
contactor has welded on. Otherwise you might be flying for years with it
welded on and not know it. Yes that last sentance is exactly what I
meant to say!

If you don't have a remote contactor then it should be obvious that the
starter has not disengaged when you check and find low voltage or excess
charging current prior to takeoff. Also true if your remote contactor
has stuck on. A freewheeling starter aparently draws something like 50
amps. A starter engaged light should help you diagnose the problem
quicker but I don't see it as essential in this case.

The main reason for having a remote starter solenoid might be to kill
power on the wire going from the battery to the starter for crash
protection. Your call whether that is important to you compared to
complexity and weight of using the contactor. I suspect lots of guys use
one as a carry over from when the old mechanical bendix starters
required one.

The next reason for having a remote contactor is to kill power to the
starter when the integral starter contactor welds which apparently
occasionally does happen to pretty much all starters. However it mostly
only happens when starting with a weak battery which is much more prone
to weld the contacts. And killing the battery master contactor (assuming
you have one ;) ) will stop the starter anyway since you are still on
the ground. I conclude that it might make more sense to insure I always
have a good battery and do occasional preventive starter maintenance
than cover for it with an extra contactor.

Further, for at least some (if not all/most) automotive starters the
solenoid design is such that it gives a hefty mechanical kick to
disengage the solenoid when the engine starts and forces the starter
drive to disengage. A remote contactor does not get this mechanical kick
off which in my mind makes it much more likely to stick than my integral
automotive starter contactor. Apparently some (or all) aviation starters
do not get this mechanical kick off though.

I don't recall any comments on the aeroelectric list regarding a stuck
starter switch. It seem to always be a stuck high current contactor that
is mentioned. Bob Knuckolls does have a writeup (and fix) regarding
permanent magnet starter run-on at his website that might be worth
looking at if you are using a PM starter.

I could continue but you're probably sorry you asked by now!

Ken

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Thanks Don! Have had a few personal emails on this with one being whether I
had a diode on the solenoid. Yes to that one... as it comes with all new key
mag switches with a start position. Going to make sure it's still doing it's
job before I install the new solenoid though.

I also had a VERY GOOD suggestion from a guy on supercub.org, which I am
going to include in every panel now (AND SUGGEST TO EVERYONE ELSE as well),
for a light to show that the starter wire is energized. Simply a light bulb
hooked to the big wire going to the starter. This would have saved me a lot
of grief today, as I could not hear it running engaged to the flywheel (the
old starters used to make a hell of a racket when they stuck, but maybe the
fact that the starter was running helped quiet things). It wasn't until the
bendix had internally disintegrated (after 10 minutes of staying energized)
that it got kicked off the flywheel and was just skipping and clanging along
the ring that I heard things. Hoping my local guy can do the $15 miracle (as
he has for older starters I've taken him like my original O-235 starter
O/H'd with new bushings etc for $19cdn in 1994!!)) so I don't have to shell
out $354us for a new one!

Cheers,
Wayne

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Wasn't a stuck bendix to start out Brian! As I said with master power on the
starter kept running. This shouldn't have been possible as I am using a
remote start solenoid and it should have shut off. Either the start switch
or solenoid stayed energized holding the starter engaged while I ran the
engine for 10 minutes (and thank god didn't rush the warm up and get into
the air!). The bendix is stuck (or better yet a word that rhymes with that)
now for sure.

Yes I would start out with a fuseable link right at the solenoid lug and
maybe a 2 amp fuse..then in thru the firewall to a bulb in the panel.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lawson" <lawsonb@mnsi.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 1:00 AM
Subject: Re: Starter Problems - O-320

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 22:54:02 -0500, you wrote:
SNIP

I also had a VERY GOOD suggestion from a guy on supercub.org, which I am
going to include in every panel now (AND SUGGEST TO EVERYONE ELSE as

well),

for a light to show that the starter wire is energized. Simply a light

bulb

hooked to the big wire going to the starter.

MORE SNIP
Hey Wayne,

Yep, sorry to hear that you've had a problem.

I can't speak for your airplane starter, but "stuck Bendix" in
automotive is almost always a mechanical fault, rather than
electrical. Still, the bulb sounds like a good simple idea. Is it
fused right at the solenoid?

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Rick, I'm not faulting the starter itself for this mess! Even if the built
in starter solenoid had welded itself in contact mode the remote should have
disengaged as soon as I let go of the key! This leads it to be the remote
solenoid or a start switch problem. Most likely the remote welding together
from a cold start/low power situation. Might be time for a new battery to go
with the new solenoid and starter O/H. This Gill is 9 years old and has
never let me down for a start, but maybe it's lived it's life.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Harper" <rjwh@optusnet.com.au>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 7:04 AM
Subject: RE: Starter Problems - O-320

G'day From Down Under Wayne ...

Rick here in SUNNY & HOT OZ !

Yep ... I've been warned that the Skytech starter is prone to "locking
in/on" too !

(and I've just bought one)

Something like/ about the solenoid welding itself ON ... not sure from

what

as yet ... gotta ask around some more.

When I find out more I'll let you know.

Also : a while back you asked me about someone doing "outback tours" of

OZ

.... I made several enquiries at the time & got no replies ... (I

remembered

hearing of the main organizer Bernie Saroff having heart problems)

I subsequently forgot a.....l....l...... about it ,.then found your old
e-mail

... Seeing some more people who know him at our Aviation Barby (BBQ) on
Sunday .... I'll ask them again :)


Rick & Wendy Harper
16 Tor Road
Dee Why
NSW 2099
Australia
Home (02) 9971 7889
Mobile 0416 041 007

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Wayne
G. O'Shea
Sent: Wednesday, 21 January 2004 12:41 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Starter Problems - O-320

Nice sunny day this morning so I plugged in my preheater and headed to the
shop. Squalls were on their way when I poked my head out the door about 4
hours later and wasn't going to miss the opportunity for a quick flight so
pulled the plane out, jumped in and fired her up.

Started right away, but I had that mental feeling something wasn't right.
Amp gauge jumped over to 30A and I brushed it off as the first run in

quite

awhile and cold. Volt gauge always needs a light tap to get it off the

seat

and then it's fine, but this time it only got to 10volts. Again shrudged

it

off as a cold instrument sticking. There I sat for almost 10 minutes

letting

everything warm up before heading into the snow. Now I thought I smelled
something odd and wait...what's that weird noise. About 11 minutes into

this

the sound became a clanking like the prop/spinner was falling off. I

turned

off the mag switch & master to shut down quickly. Got out moved the prop

and

found the starter not engaged but just rubbing the flywheel ring. After I
was done calling the Skytec corp every name in the book (82 hrs on this

one!

and as I've stated before I love them). I got back in again and turned the
master back on. Didn't dawn on me right away what was happening but the
starter was running when I threw the master switch!! I turned it on and

off

a couple times and this quit happening, then got out with a big

screwdriver

and pushed the bendix back from the flywheel, turned the mags on -- hand
swung and got in my flight before "winter" returned. Full 13.8V+ as soon

as

it started up so everything now fine in this respect.

After the flight I came to the conclusion that the remote starter solenoid
must have stuck in the energized positon. Once the engine started and I
moved the key to Both, the solenoid must have stuck from frost/cold/spark
weld or something and held the starter engaged and running on the

flywheel,

causing the 10 volt reading high charge current etc and of course the
expensive part a totally mangled bendix drive on my Skytec 122PM

(*#*#(%!!

. I have removed the remote starter relay from my firewall and am

replacing

with a new one while the local electric motor rebuilder has a go at my
starter drive.

Other than sharing my shitty day and the advise that when it just doesn't
look/feel/smell right it probably isn't....has anyone else ever had this
happen to you and is there any experience with or chance that my
OFF/R/L/BOTH/START key switch was the culprit and the internals of the
switch stayed connected to the start circuit even though I had turned it

to

both and actually all the way back to OFF and the starter would run when

the

master was turned on. Would hate to get my starter back on with a new

remote

starter relay and have this happen again if someone else on here has ever
had the mag switch start postion stick I'd sure like to know. I guess
another option is to do some rewiring and just get rid of the start

solenoid

and strictly use the one on the starter.

Thanks,
Wayne

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Ken, I have a remote start solenoid because I had the old heavy Lycoming
("8N Ford" ) starter on my O-235. When I put in the O-320 with the Skytec I
just used the supplied solenoid jumper for the starter and continued to use
the remote solenoid set up.

With this jumper wire in place, which automatically energizes the starters
internal solenoid as soon as power is applied to the big wire, the remote
could not stay "welded together for years" and you not know about it. If it
was welded together, everytime you hit the master switch (when wired in this
configuration) the starter would engage and start wheeling the prop around.
Guess you could use both solenoids seperate with a switch for the remote and
another for the starter solenoid itself, but that would be a waste of
wire/switches. or maybe even just taking the start wire to each solenoid so
they both had a controllable input, vs the starter being automatic. I think
the later would make the most sense and would have saved me a starter O/H
yesterday as that way when you let go of the key start postion you have two
items that will disconnect the circuit instead of just the remote solenoid.

And for everyones information and future reference when your day for
overhaul comes, just got a call from the electric shop that I use to
overhaul all my starter/alternators in the yard (tractor/bulldozer/backhoe
etc) and he has my Skytec 12-122LS apart This is the small compact version
that is designated LS or PM (depending on the side you need the solenoid)
from Skytec not the high torque geared model that looks similar to the B&C
starters. The electrical shop says it is a Ford Permanent magnet - gear
reduction starter installed into the fancy cast Skytec case. Apparently
there are only two versions of this with one being used on most of the ford
trucks and vans etc and then this oddball which has an extra tooth on one(or
some) of the gears. Parts are readily available.. as are all bushings etc to
cheaply overhaul, so don't anyone go out and pay $354US for a new one when
the day comes!

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: Starter Problems - O-320

My conclusions on this is slightly different than the prevailing view on
the aeroelectric list. IF you have a remote starter contactor then you
really should have a starter engaged light to tell you if the remote
contactor has welded on. Otherwise you might be flying for years with it
welded on and not know it. Yes that last sentance is exactly what I
meant to say!

If you don't have a remote contactor then it should be obvious that the
starter has not disengaged when you check and find low voltage or excess
charging current prior to takeoff. Also true if your remote contactor
has stuck on. A freewheeling starter aparently draws something like 50
amps. A starter engaged light should help you diagnose the problem
quicker but I don't see it as essential in this case.

The main reason for having a remote starter solenoid might be to kill
power on the wire going from the battery to the starter for crash
protection. Your call whether that is important to you compared to
complexity and weight of using the contactor. I suspect lots of guys use
one as a carry over from when the old mechanical bendix starters
required one.

The next reason for having a remote contactor is to kill power to the
starter when the integral starter contactor welds which apparently
occasionally does happen to pretty much all starters. However it mostly
only happens when starting with a weak battery which is much more prone
to weld the contacts. And killing the battery master contactor (assuming
you have one ;) ) will stop the starter anyway since you are still on
the ground. I conclude that it might make more sense to insure I always
have a good battery and do occasional preventive starter maintenance
than cover for it with an extra contactor.

Further, for at least some (if not all/most) automotive starters the
solenoid design is such that it gives a hefty mechanical kick to
disengage the solenoid when the engine starts and forces the starter
drive to disengage. A remote contactor does not get this mechanical kick
off which in my mind makes it much more likely to stick than my integral
automotive starter contactor. Apparently some (or all) aviation starters
do not get this mechanical kick off though.

I don't recall any comments on the aeroelectric list regarding a stuck
starter switch. It seem to always be a stuck high current contactor that
is mentioned. Bob Knuckolls does have a writeup (and fix) regarding
permanent magnet starter run-on at his website that might be worth
looking at if you are using a PM starter.

I could continue but you're probably sorry you asked by now!

Ken

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Thanks Don! Have had a few personal emails on this with one being

whether I

had a diode on the solenoid. Yes to that one... as it comes with all new

key

mag switches with a start position. Going to make sure it's still doing

it's

job before I install the new solenoid though.

I also had a VERY GOOD suggestion from a guy on supercub.org, which I am
going to include in every panel now (AND SUGGEST TO EVERYONE ELSE as

well),

for a light to show that the starter wire is energized. Simply a light

bulb

hooked to the big wire going to the starter. This would have saved me a

lot

of grief today, as I could not hear it running engaged to the flywheel

(the

old starters used to make a hell of a racket when they stuck, but maybe

the

fact that the starter was running helped quiet things). It wasn't until

the

bendix had internally disintegrated (after 10 minutes of staying

energized)

that it got kicked off the flywheel and was just skipping and clanging

along

the ring that I heard things. Hoping my local guy can do the $15 miracle

(as

he has for older starters I've taken him like my original O-235 starter
O/H'd with new bushings etc for $19cdn in 1994!!)) so I don't have to

shell

out $354us for a new one!

Cheers,
Wayne

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[klehman]

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Ken, I have a remote start solenoid because I had the old heavy Lycoming
("8N Ford" ) starter on my O-235. When I put in the O-320 with the Skytec I
just used the supplied solenoid jumper for the starter and continued to use
the remote solenoid set up.

With this jumper wire in place, which automatically energizes the starters
internal solenoid as soon as power is applied to the big wire, the remote
could not stay "welded together for years" and you not know about it. If it
was welded together, everytime you hit the master switch (when wired in this
configuration) the starter would engage and start wheeling the prop around.
Guess you could use both solenoids seperate with a switch for the remote and
another for the starter solenoid itself, but that would be a waste of
wire/switches. or maybe even just taking the start wire to each solenoid so
they both had a controllable input, vs the starter being automatic. I think
the later would make the most sense and would have saved me a starter O/H
yesterday as that way when you let go of the key start postion you have two
items that will disconnect the circuit instead of just the remote solenoid.

Yes my lack of "Lycoming" experience is showing again ;). That makes
more sense to me to have one switch feeding two contactors especially
since I think the remote contactor is the most failure prone one in some
cases. Unfortunately the current might make it pretty rough on the
starter switch as I believe integral contactors can draw a hefty load.
Might need a series diode to prevent a stuck integral contactor back
feeding the remote one though. Some of this traditional wiring stuff is
for real solid reasons when you get into it, some just seems to multiply
failure possibilities in ways that would never be tolerated in a car.
Guess you've noticed that I don't think much of multiple starter
contactors ;)

Ken



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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Well I haven't bothered to go get a new "ford" remote solenoid yet to go
with what apparently is a new PM Ford starter with it's own built in
solenoid (posing as a Skytec), so maybe I will just attach that heavier wire
to the output side of my master solenoid (which conveniently is on the
firewall 2 inches away from the starter solenoid since my battery is still
up front), remove the jumper wire from the starter solenoid (that was auto
feeding it) and extend my wire coming from the start key to go all the way
to the built in starter solenoid .......and take one piece of "nuisance" out
of the equation. This does negate the ability to put an idot light on the
starter feed though, since if the solenoid welds together in the built in
solenoid you can't monitor it (other than "bad" meter readings) as this
thing made no sounds (like the old Lyco starters did) when it stayed engaged
until the bendix gave up an got thrown out of engagement with the ring gear.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: Starter Problems - O-320

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Ken, I have a remote start solenoid because I had the old heavy Lycoming
("8N Ford" ) starter on my O-235. When I put in the O-320 with the

Skytec I

just used the supplied solenoid jumper for the starter and continued to

use

the remote solenoid set up.

With this jumper wire in place, which automatically energizes the

starters

internal solenoid as soon as power is applied to the big wire, the

remote

could not stay "welded together for years" and you not know about it. If

it

was welded together, everytime you hit the master switch (when wired in

this

configuration) the starter would engage and start wheeling the prop

around.

Guess you could use both solenoids seperate with a switch for the remote

and

another for the starter solenoid itself, but that would be a waste of
wire/switches. or maybe even just taking the start wire to each solenoid

so

they both had a controllable input, vs the starter being automatic. I

think

the later would make the most sense and would have saved me a starter

O/H

yesterday as that way when you let go of the key start postion you have

two

items that will disconnect the circuit instead of just the remote

solenoid.

Yes my lack of "Lycoming" experience is showing again ;). That makes
more sense to me to have one switch feeding two contactors especially
since I think the remote contactor is the most failure prone one in some
cases. Unfortunately the current might make it pretty rough on the
starter switch as I believe integral contactors can draw a hefty load.
Might need a series diode to prevent a stuck integral contactor back
feeding the remote one though. Some of this traditional wiring stuff is
for real solid reasons when you get into it, some just seems to multiply
failure possibilities in ways that would never be tolerated in a car.
Guess you've noticed that I don't think much of multiple starter
contactors ;)

Ken

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[klehman]

Even if you keep the remote contactor, will the idot light help anyway
if the integral contactor welds? You'd think that the remote contactor
would open and kill power to the idot light anyway.

http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/strtctr.pdf

is informative.

Ken

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Well I haven't bothered to go get a new "ford" remote solenoid yet to go
with what apparently is a new PM Ford starter with it's own built in
solenoid (posing as a Skytec), so maybe I will just attach that heavier wire
to the output side of my master solenoid (which conveniently is on the
firewall 2 inches away from the starter solenoid since my battery is still
up front), remove the jumper wire from the starter solenoid (that was auto
feeding it) and extend my wire coming from the start key to go all the way
to the built in starter solenoid .......and take one piece of "nuisance" out
of the equation. This does negate the ability to put an idot light on the
starter feed though, since if the solenoid welds together in the built in
solenoid you can't monitor it (other than "bad" meter readings) as this
thing made no sounds (like the old Lyco starters did) when it stayed engaged
until the bendix gave up an got thrown out of engagement with the ring gear.

Wayne

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Read through that and will stay with the remote solenoid! Otherwise I'm
looking at a lot of rewiring to take that 35A spike from the starter
solenoid itself! Everyone else take note of this link, read it and don't
just use the solenoid on your new lightweight starter..your really need the
remote!!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: Starter Problems - O-320

Even if you keep the remote contactor, will the idot light help anyway
if the integral contactor welds? You'd think that the remote contactor
would open and kill power to the idot light anyway.

http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/strtctr.pdf

is informative.

Ken

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Well I haven't bothered to go get a new "ford" remote solenoid yet to go
with what apparently is a new PM Ford starter with it's own built in
solenoid (posing as a Skytec), so maybe I will just attach that heavier

wire

to the output side of my master solenoid (which conveniently is on the
firewall 2 inches away from the starter solenoid since my battery is

still

up front), remove the jumper wire from the starter solenoid (that was

auto

feeding it) and extend my wire coming from the start key to go all the

way

to the built in starter solenoid .......and take one piece of "nuisance"

out

of the equation. This does negate the ability to put an idot light on

the

starter feed though, since if the solenoid welds together in the built

in

solenoid you can't monitor it (other than "bad" meter readings) as this
thing made no sounds (like the old Lyco starters did) when it stayed

engaged

until the bendix gave up an got thrown out of engagement with the ring

gear.

Wayne

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Yep, the idiot light will still help even if the contactor on the starter
welds together. As long as the remote is still functioning properly the
starter will shut off as soon as I let go of the key. IF the light stays on
I know the remote has welded together and the starter is going to run then
for sure (if welded together or I leave the jumper on it). Thanks for the
link Ken!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: Starter Problems - O-320

Even if you keep the remote contactor, will the idot light help anyway
if the integral contactor welds? You'd think that the remote contactor
would open and kill power to the idot light anyway.

http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/strtctr.pdf

is informative.

Ken

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Well I haven't bothered to go get a new "ford" remote solenoid yet to go
with what apparently is a new PM Ford starter with it's own built in
solenoid (posing as a Skytec), so maybe I will just attach that heavier

wire

to the output side of my master solenoid (which conveniently is on the
firewall 2 inches away from the starter solenoid since my battery is

still

up front), remove the jumper wire from the starter solenoid (that was

auto

feeding it) and extend my wire coming from the start key to go all the

way

to the built in starter solenoid .......and take one piece of "nuisance"

out

of the equation. This does negate the ability to put an idot light on

the

starter feed though, since if the solenoid welds together in the built

in

solenoid you can't monitor it (other than "bad" meter readings) as this
thing made no sounds (like the old Lyco starters did) when it stayed

engaged

until the bendix gave up an got thrown out of engagement with the ring

gear.

Wayne

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[klehman]

One question though. How will you know if the integral starter contactor
has welded? You won't have any electrical system indications or noise as
I understand it. I guess it is not a problem as long as the starter
drive retracts properly.

Pretty sure my Subaru one will have noise because if the contactor welds
it will try to hold the drive gear engaged according to what I
understand of the diagrams. I plan to take it apart and check that
though when I check the contact condition. The thing is that I don't
want to use an extra contactor if it could mask such a condition until
after I'm airborne. I might be happier with a 40 amp relay to drive the
solenoid instead of a large remote contactor to switch the main current.

Bob has many evenings worth of excellant reading there on his site.
I especially like the stuff on voltage spikes.

Ken

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Yep, the idiot light will still help even if the contactor on the starter
welds together. As long as the remote is still functioning properly the
starter will shut off as soon as I let go of the key. IF the light stays on
I know the remote has welded together and the starter is going to run then
for sure (if welded together or I leave the jumper on it). Thanks for the
link Ken!

Wayne

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