Mounting 1800 Floats

[MFC]

Bruce
The angle you refer to is called the throat angle. If you set your float
tops level, and use a smart level on your a /c floor, you should see a 2 to
3 degree nose up angle ( in relation to the floats)on your a / c. This
combined with the 3 degree angle of incidence of your wing will give you
aprox. 4.5 to 5 degrees throat.Rebels fly well with 5 degrees, and I have
flown them with 6 degrees. 4 would be as low as I would go, it will give you
a little more cruse speed, but make it slower off the water. one more thing
to look at, your float step should be at 45% wing cord in level flight. With
a / c in level flight attitude, mark 45 % cord on your wing, tape plumb bob
string at that point, plumb bob line should hit the step of the float.
I have flown both Rebels and Elete and SRs rigged this way and they work.
Changing strut length after the fact is easy with the extra holes Murphy
puts in the strut ends.
One thing I would recommend you do is to add something to your cable eyes to
keep them from closing, this can happen on rough water,and will loosen your
brace cables considerably.
hope this helps.
Keith
----- Original Message -----
From: <Legeorgen@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 6:50 PM
Subject: Re: Mounting 1800 Floats

I have the Rebel hoisted and all 4 float lift struts bolted to the floats

and

Rebel. No diagonal struts yet. MAM manual says to check your angle of

attack

now. I want 2.6*.

To check the angle of attack against the leveled floats I assumed I needed

to

rest the aircraft on the struts first. As I began to lower the aircraft

and

rest all the weight on the lift struts (no diagonal struts yet) everything
begins to tilt back and the rear struts are no longer vertical and 90* to

the

floats (as I assume it must be).

I stopped resting all the weight on the struts and floats at this point

for

fear of tweaking the attach points on both plane and floats.

The diagonal struts hold the aircraft from tilting back but I can't mount

the

diagonal struts now because I don't know what my of attack is yet! Or does

it

matter? At what point does one rest the aircraft on the floats? Before or
after the diagonals are installed?

Last, I here 2.6* is the right angle to mount the wings to the floats.

MAM's

manual calls out for a 5/32" gap between the fuselage and level when

placed

along the cabin bottom. But I have more like 1-5/32". not sure what that's

all

about. All the struts are made to the manuals correct lengths and specs.

I can measure the angle anyway when I figure out how and when to rest the
plane on the float struts and measure it.

Bruce 357R

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[David Stroud]

Giday, Keith. Could you please say if that 45 % of wing chord / float step recommend is typical for all
aircraft..at least high wing monoplanes, or is it a local recommend unique to Murphy aircraft? Thanks.

Dave Stroud, Ottawa, Canada
Christavia Mk 1 C-FDWS
Fairchild 51, early construction


----- Original Message -----
From: "MFC" <mfc@libby.org>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: Mounting 1800 Floats

Bruce
The angle you refer to is called the throat angle. If you set your float
tops level, and use a smart level on your a /c floor, you should see a 2 to
3 degree nose up angle ( in relation to the floats)on your a / c. This
combined with the 3 degree angle of incidence of your wing will give you
aprox. 4.5 to 5 degrees throat.Rebels fly well with 5 degrees, and I have
flown them with 6 degrees. 4 would be as low as I would go, it will give you
a little more cruse speed, but make it slower off the water. one more thing
to look at, your float step should be at 45% wing cord in level flight. With
a / c in level flight attitude, mark 45 % cord on your wing, tape plumb bob
string at that point, plumb bob line should hit the step of the float.
I have flown both Rebels and Elete and SRs rigged this way and they work.
Changing strut length after the fact is easy with the extra holes Murphy
puts in the strut ends.
One thing I would recommend you do is to add something to your cable eyes to
keep them from closing, this can happen on rough water,and will loosen your
brace cables considerably.
hope this helps.
Keith
----- Original Message -----
From: <Legeorgen@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 6:50 PM
Subject: Re: Mounting 1800 Floats

I have the Rebel hoisted and all 4 float lift struts bolted to the floats

and

Rebel. No diagonal struts yet. MAM manual says to check your angle of

attack

now. I want 2.6*.

To check the angle of attack against the leveled floats I assumed I needed

to

rest the aircraft on the struts first. As I began to lower the aircraft

and

rest all the weight on the lift struts (no diagonal struts yet) everything
begins to tilt back and the rear struts are no longer vertical and 90* to

the

floats (as I assume it must be).

I stopped resting all the weight on the struts and floats at this point

for

fear of tweaking the attach points on both plane and floats.

The diagonal struts hold the aircraft from tilting back but I can't mount

the

diagonal struts now because I don't know what my of attack is yet! Or does

it

matter? At what point does one rest the aircraft on the floats? Before or
after the diagonals are installed?

Last, I here 2.6* is the right angle to mount the wings to the floats.

MAM's

manual calls out for a 5/32" gap between the fuselage and level when

placed

along the cabin bottom. But I have more like 1-5/32". not sure what that's

all

about. All the struts are made to the manuals correct lengths and specs.

I can measure the angle anyway when I figure out how and when to rest the
plane on the float struts and measure it.

Bruce 357R

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[MFC]

Dave
The 45 degrees, step in relation to cord, is a safe start point for any
installation. Most a / c will fly fairly well using this for starters. If
your step is to far aft you will get on step very fast, but the a / c maybe
a bit snakey while running on the step, if the step is to far forward, it
will be hard to get the a / c on the step, the nose will come up but it
won't want to come over and run on the step, and will fall of the step at
higher speed. It has to do with C.G. some what. If you start at 45% you can
always move it for and aft after trying it. An example would be a 60 in
cord wing, 27 inches would be 45%. loaded you will have a C.G. of aprox. 14
in.aft the leading edge, that would have the step at 13 in. aft the C.G. and
should work ok. I have flown them from about 40% cord to about 60% cord and
it seems to work out. If you can find a similar a / c to what you want to
mount floats on, do some checking to see where the floats sit, and how well
it fly's and go from there. As for your struts if you mount the plane to
high, it will have more tendency to want to pull the nose down on
deceleration. and to low will get your prop in the spray. the angle of your
strut to fuselage should be 45 degrees min and 60 max.( this is the angle
of the struts if you stand in front of the a / c,and look at it ).not the
side. A reasonable height is about 24 ins front spreader to air craft belly.
This info is not cast in stone, it is simply some starting points that will
help you get started. Remember anphib float will move your C. G. forward
generally speaking, so you might want to think of that will building and
make arrangements to have your battery and electric pump aft.
Keith
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Stroud" <davestroud@rogers.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: Mounting 1800 Floats

Giday, Keith. Could you please say if that 45 % of wing chord / float step

recommend is typical for all

aircraft..at least high wing monoplanes, or is it a local recommend unique

to Murphy aircraft? Thanks.

Dave Stroud, Ottawa, Canada
Christavia Mk 1 C-FDWS
Fairchild 51, early construction


----- Original Message -----
From: "MFC" <mfc@libby.org>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: Mounting 1800 Floats

Bruce
The angle you refer to is called the throat angle. If you set your float
tops level, and use a smart level on your a /c floor, you should see a 2

to

3 degree nose up angle ( in relation to the floats)on your a / c. This
combined with the 3 degree angle of incidence of your wing will give you
aprox. 4.5 to 5 degrees throat.Rebels fly well with 5 degrees, and I

have

flown them with 6 degrees. 4 would be as low as I would go, it will give

you

a little more cruse speed, but make it slower off the water. one more

thing

to look at, your float step should be at 45% wing cord in level flight.

With

a / c in level flight attitude, mark 45 % cord on your wing, tape plumb

bob

string at that point, plumb bob line should hit the step of the float.
I have flown both Rebels and Elete and SRs rigged this way and they

work.

Changing strut length after the fact is easy with the extra holes Murphy
puts in the strut ends.
One thing I would recommend you do is to add something to your cable

eyes to

keep them from closing, this can happen on rough water,and will loosen

your

brace cables considerably.
hope this helps.
Keith
----- Original Message -----
From: <Legeorgen@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 6:50 PM
Subject: Re: Mounting 1800 Floats

I have the Rebel hoisted and all 4 float lift struts bolted to the

floats

and

Rebel. No diagonal struts yet. MAM manual says to check your angle of

attack

now. I want 2.6*.

To check the angle of attack against the leveled floats I assumed I

needed

to

rest the aircraft on the struts first. As I began to lower the

aircraft

and

rest all the weight on the lift struts (no diagonal struts yet)

everything

begins to tilt back and the rear struts are no longer vertical and 90*

to

the

floats (as I assume it must be).

I stopped resting all the weight on the struts and floats at this

point

for

fear of tweaking the attach points on both plane and floats.

The diagonal struts hold the aircraft from tilting back but I can't

mount

the

diagonal struts now because I don't know what my of attack is yet! Or

does

it

matter? At what point does one rest the aircraft on the floats? Before

or

after the diagonals are installed?

Last, I here 2.6* is the right angle to mount the wings to the floats.

MAM's

manual calls out for a 5/32" gap between the fuselage and level when

placed

along the cabin bottom. But I have more like 1-5/32". not sure what

that's

all

about. All the struts are made to the manuals correct lengths and

specs.

I can measure the angle anyway when I figure out how and when to rest

the

plane on the float struts and measure it.

Bruce 357R

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[Walter Klatt]

Bruce, you should not try to rest it on the struts before the
diagonals are in place, or at least I didn't. Instead get it as
close as you can with your measurements, and use a level
(preferably digital), not the distance measurements that MAM
gives. Then be sure to leave a few holes adjustment on both front
and rear struts up and down, so that you can adjust the angle
without having to change the diagonals.

As it happened with mine, my original angle measurements did not
change after solid attachment of everything. And my angle is at
2.5 degrees.

Since you're just doing yours right now, why not try 3 degrees. I
know 2.5 works better than 2, so maybe 3 will be even better. I
plan to try that on mine next time they're off. I think one hole
adjustment on the rear strut is about 1/2 a degree. You can
always put it back if you don't like it.

Not sure how you are doing your cables, but if you attach the
tang to the last strut bolt, instead of the main attach bolt, you
won't even have to adjust your wires. I didn't do that on mine
which is why I haven't been too quick to try another angle.

Sounds like you are almost there, though, so will look forward to
hearing about your first flights.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Legeorgen@aol.com
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 5:50 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Mounting 1800 Floats


I have the Rebel hoisted and all 4 float lift struts
bolted to the floats and
Rebel. No diagonal struts yet. MAM manual says to
check your angle of attack
now. I want 2.6*.

To check the angle of attack against the leveled
floats I assumed I needed to
rest the aircraft on the struts first. As I began to
lower the aircraft and
rest all the weight on the lift struts (no diagonal
struts yet) everything
begins to tilt back and the rear struts are no longer
vertical and 90* to the
floats (as I assume it must be).

I stopped resting all the weight on the struts and
floats at this point for
fear of tweaking the attach points on both plane and floats.

The diagonal struts hold the aircraft from tilting
back but I can't mount the
diagonal struts now because I don't know what my of
attack is yet! Or does it
matter? At what point does one rest the aircraft on
the floats? Before or
after the diagonals are installed?

Last, I here 2.6* is the right angle to mount the
wings to the floats. MAM's
manual calls out for a 5/32" gap between the fuselage
and level when placed
along the cabin bottom. But I have more like 1-5/32".
not sure what that's all
about. All the struts are made to the manuals correct
lengths and specs.

I can measure the angle anyway when I figure out how
and when to rest the
plane on the float struts and measure it.

Bruce 357R



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[Legeorgen]

I have the Rebel hoisted and all 4 float lift struts bolted to the floats and
Rebel. No diagonal struts yet. MAM manual says to check your angle of attack
now. I want 2.6*.

To check the angle of attack against the leveled floats I assumed I needed to
rest the aircraft on the struts first. As I began to lower the aircraft and
rest all the weight on the lift struts (no diagonal struts yet) everything
begins to tilt back and the rear struts are no longer vertical and 90* to the
floats (as I assume it must be).

I stopped resting all the weight on the struts and floats at this point for
fear of tweaking the attach points on both plane and floats.

The diagonal struts hold the aircraft from tilting back but I can't mount the
diagonal struts now because I don't know what my of attack is yet! Or does it
matter? At what point does one rest the aircraft on the floats? Before or
after the diagonals are installed?

Last, I here 2.6* is the right angle to mount the wings to the floats. MAM's
manual calls out for a 5/32" gap between the fuselage and level when placed
along the cabin bottom. But I have more like 1-5/32". not sure what that's all
about. All the struts are made to the manuals correct lengths and specs.

I can measure the angle anyway when I figure out how and when to rest the
plane on the float struts and measure it.

Bruce 357R



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[Bob Fisher]

I`m in nearly the same situation with Rebel 342 on amphibs so I am most
interested in the response.

How do you do it Wayne?

Bob Fisher
----- Original Message -----
From: <Legeorgen@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: Mounting 1800 Floats

I have the Rebel hoisted and all 4 float lift struts bolted to the floats

and

Rebel. No diagonal struts yet. MAM manual says to check your angle of

attack

now. I want 2.6*.

To check the angle of attack against the leveled floats I assumed I needed

to

rest the aircraft on the struts first. As I began to lower the aircraft

and

rest all the weight on the lift struts (no diagonal struts yet) everything
begins to tilt back and the rear struts are no longer vertical and 90* to

the

floats (as I assume it must be).

I stopped resting all the weight on the struts and floats at this point

for

fear of tweaking the attach points on both plane and floats.

The diagonal struts hold the aircraft from tilting back but I can't mount

the

diagonal struts now because I don't know what my of attack is yet! Or does

it

matter? At what point does one rest the aircraft on the floats? Before or
after the diagonals are installed?

Last, I here 2.6* is the right angle to mount the wings to the floats.

MAM's

manual calls out for a 5/32" gap between the fuselage and level when

placed

along the cabin bottom. But I have more like 1-5/32". not sure what that's

all

about. All the struts are made to the manuals correct lengths and specs.

I can measure the angle anyway when I figure out how and when to rest the
plane on the float struts and measure it.

Bruce 357R

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

I think Walter has it all covered just fine! Forget about the wing as it's
chord is theoretical and can't be measured (but is about 4* more nose up
than the bottom of the fuselage under the seats). Just, as Walter states,
use a digital level to measure the float and then adjust the cabin floor to
get a 2.6 to 3.0 degree difference while you still have most of the load off
the struts, make your diagonals while trying to keep the rear strut as
perpendicular as you can. Also pretty important that you have the gear up
and the floats step area sitting on blocks. Otherwise as you load/unload the
airframe to the struts the main gear shock struts will move up and down
changing the float angle by over 3* weighted to unweighted.

As for the x-cables, I thought I would have to make shorter ones when I
lowered the rear of Howard's, but it turned out that I only had to retighten
about 2 turns extra to get them taught again. As long as you are mid range
on the turnbuckles you'll be fine for any adjustments of even two holes on
the rear struts later.

A WORD OF CAUTION!! When you have the airplane blocked up on floats under
the step area DO NOT get into the airplane! I made this mistake one winter
when I went after the battery in the tailcone and got lucky when I quickly
retreated from the "teeter totter"!. Now I always jam a chair under the
tails of the floats just in front of the water rudder ....so the airplane
can't tip back!!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Fisher" <rgfisher@zeuter.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: Mounting 1800 Floats

I`m in nearly the same situation with Rebel 342 on amphibs so I am most
interested in the response.

How do you do it Wayne?

Bob Fisher
----- Original Message -----
From: <Legeorgen@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: Mounting 1800 Floats

I have the Rebel hoisted and all 4 float lift struts bolted to the

floats

and

Rebel. No diagonal struts yet. MAM manual says to check your angle of

attack

now. I want 2.6*.

To check the angle of attack against the leveled floats I assumed I

needed

to

rest the aircraft on the struts first. As I began to lower the aircraft

and

rest all the weight on the lift struts (no diagonal struts yet)

everything

begins to tilt back and the rear struts are no longer vertical and 90*

to

the

floats (as I assume it must be).

I stopped resting all the weight on the struts and floats at this point

for

fear of tweaking the attach points on both plane and floats.

The diagonal struts hold the aircraft from tilting back but I can't

mount

the

diagonal struts now because I don't know what my of attack is yet! Or

does

it

matter? At what point does one rest the aircraft on the floats? Before

or

after the diagonals are installed?

Last, I here 2.6* is the right angle to mount the wings to the floats.

MAM's

manual calls out for a 5/32" gap between the fuselage and level when

placed

along the cabin bottom. But I have more like 1-5/32". not sure what

that's

all

about. All the struts are made to the manuals correct lengths and specs.

I can measure the angle anyway when I figure out how and when to rest

the

plane on the float struts and measure it.

Bruce 357R

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[Legeorgen]

Thanks for the help with the floats everyone. Today I finished the general
mounting and cable work (13* in the hanger today!). I mounted a/c and floats at
3* angle. I did have to raise the rear strut one hole at the top to get the 3*.

Keith,

I'm not sure what you mean by adding something to the cable eyes to keeping
them from closing. Also, I didn't check the 45* wing cord and float step but
I'll be sure to see where it ended up next trip to the hanger.

The plane looks great on floats! I had to sit down and admire it setting so
proud and hi, after I finished. Controls and hydraulics are next after this
cold snap. Minus 7* in Spokane tonight!

I/m going to Wennachee to see Brian for my float rating next week.

Bruce 357R



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[SWSLOANLK]

Bruce

What days are you going to be in Wenatchee!

Steve S



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[Walter Klatt]

Are ya gonna bring along your ice-pick?

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Legeorgen@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 2:23 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Mounting 1800 Floats


Steve,

I'll be in Wenatchee, getting a float rating, the 18th-20th.

Bruce G



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[Legeorgen]

Steve,

I'll be in Wenatchee, getting a float rating, the 18th-20th.

Bruce G



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[Legeorgen]

Walter,

Ha ha! Bring an ice pick is what I ask Brian too. He assured me we wouldn't
need it. We'll see.

Bruce



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[SWSLOANLK]

Bruce!

Thank's for the dates on your float lessons. I have been running some cold
weather high alt. test's between Arlington and Lake Wenatchee. If the timing had
worked out I would have stoped by to say Hi, however I was able to finish the
last of the test's yesterday with the final run at 10,500 / 11,500 feet at
-21 deg C over Steven's Pass.

Good luck on your float rating.

Steve S



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[Legeorgen]

Steve,

I hope your heater was working well! What kind of test were you running?

Bruce G



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[SWSLOANLK]

Bruce!

These test's covered a number of small item's to update & complete the
seaplane supplement to my pilot operation's hand book along with two major item's
the oil cooler and the propeller pitch control motor operation's at very low
temp's

As for the cabin temp, it was just fine ( about +10 deg C ) except for the
frost forming on the inside of the cabin windows.

Steve S



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