Help:Removing horizontal stab

[Peter, Juliet, & Wanaao]

I put my Rebel in a heated hanger here in Yellowknife to remove wings
and horiz. stab. When I removed the inspection panels
on the tail, I found that the forward spar on the stab is riveted to
the tail. Rebel said that the tail removes easily. How can I remove the
horizontal stab?


Any help will be appreciated,

Peter Piascik



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[Peter, Juliet, & Wanaao]

Wayne:

This is the reason I am taking the Rebel in to my garage to have a
close look at her. If
I remember correctly he has four rivets in the front stab attachment
bracket where it attaches to the tail cone. It looks like I will have
to remove that rear bulkhead and replace it because of all the holes he
had drilled into it. I will try to get a picture of it.

Thank,

Peter Piascik


On Saturday, January 3, 2004, at 09:20 PM, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

The Horizontal Stab should DEFINITELY not be riveted to the aircraft,
so
good thing you were looking before flying any further and leaving your
wife/kids behind from the possible aftermath!!.

The forward stab fittings should be bolted with >ONE< 1/4" bolt per
side,
the same as the rear fitting. Don't know how yours is riveted, but I
suspect
someone was too lazy to crawl into the tailcone and install a couple
anchor
nuts (and thought they'd just make the stab attachments match the fins
9
rivet attachment ??). Any more than one attachment bolt on the front
fitting
turns the front stab spar into a cantilever beam and may cause the
spar to
crack/break just outboard of the attach fitting due to it taking the
loads
instead of letting them transfer back to the rear spar and "lift"
strut like
they are supposed to.

If the builder took such a short cut here, where else did he/she adlib
elsewhere in the airframe. Make sure you have a good look at
EVERYTHING and
compare to the builders manual as you go. Get out the
mirror/flashlight etc
and start looking into everything you can.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter, Juliet, & Wanaao" <northofsixty@mac.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 11:10 PM
Subject: Help:Removing horizontal stab

I put my Rebel in a heated hanger here in Yellowknife to remove wings
and horiz. stab. When I removed the inspection panels
on the tail, I found that the forward spar on the stab is riveted to
the tail. Rebel said that the tail removes easily. How can I remove
the
horizontal stab?


Any help will be appreciated,

Peter Piascik

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

The Horizontal Stab should DEFINITELY not be riveted to the aircraft, so
good thing you were looking before flying any further and leaving your
wife/kids behind from the possible aftermath!!.

The forward stab fittings should be bolted with >ONE< 1/4" bolt per side,
the same as the rear fitting. Don't know how yours is riveted, but I suspect
someone was too lazy to crawl into the tailcone and install a couple anchor
nuts (and thought they'd just make the stab attachments match the fins 9
rivet attachment ??). Any more than one attachment bolt on the front fitting
turns the front stab spar into a cantilever beam and may cause the spar to
crack/break just outboard of the attach fitting due to it taking the loads
instead of letting them transfer back to the rear spar and "lift" strut like
they are supposed to.

If the builder took such a short cut here, where else did he/she adlib
elsewhere in the airframe. Make sure you have a good look at EVERYTHING and
compare to the builders manual as you go. Get out the mirror/flashlight etc
and start looking into everything you can.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter, Juliet, & Wanaao" <northofsixty@mac.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 11:10 PM
Subject: Help:Removing horizontal stab

I put my Rebel in a heated hanger here in Yellowknife to remove wings
and horiz. stab. When I removed the inspection panels
on the tail, I found that the forward spar on the stab is riveted to
the tail. Rebel said that the tail removes easily. How can I remove the
horizontal stab?


Any help will be appreciated,

Peter Piascik

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Peter, take a digital picture and downsize it to around 40k (I'm on the end
of a rural phone line) so I can see how it is riveted. Then I can give you
clear advise on how to correct it, if the fitting hasn't already been turned
into swiss cheese! Wayne oifa@irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: Help:Removing horizontal stab

The Horizontal Stab should DEFINITELY not be riveted to the aircraft, so
good thing you were looking before flying any further and leaving your
wife/kids behind from the possible aftermath!!.

The forward stab fittings should be bolted with >ONE< 1/4" bolt per side,
the same as the rear fitting. Don't know how yours is riveted, but I

suspect

someone was too lazy to crawl into the tailcone and install a couple

anchor

nuts (and thought they'd just make the stab attachments match the fins 9
rivet attachment ??). Any more than one attachment bolt on the front

fitting

turns the front stab spar into a cantilever beam and may cause the spar to
crack/break just outboard of the attach fitting due to it taking the loads
instead of letting them transfer back to the rear spar and "lift" strut

like

they are supposed to.

If the builder took such a short cut here, where else did he/she adlib
elsewhere in the airframe. Make sure you have a good look at EVERYTHING

and

compare to the builders manual as you go. Get out the mirror/flashlight

etc

and start looking into everything you can.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter, Juliet, & Wanaao" <northofsixty@mac.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 11:10 PM
Subject: Help:Removing horizontal stab

I put my Rebel in a heated hanger here in Yellowknife to remove wings
and horiz. stab. When I removed the inspection panels
on the tail, I found that the forward spar on the stab is riveted to
the tail. Rebel said that the tail removes easily. How can I remove the
horizontal stab?


Any help will be appreciated,

Peter Piascik

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[Peter, Juliet, & Wanaao]

Wayne:

I just upload two files:

Forward and rear stab attachment bracket

Peter



On Sunday, January 4, 2004, at 09:07 AM, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

If he used the single hole at the end of the fitting that was intended
for a
bolt, you should be able to reuse this hole. Rear bulkhead should have
a
.032 doubler sheet riveted to the top 1/2 of the bulkhead. As long as
this
is there you should be able to just drill out the rivet and open up the
proper hole up to 1/4". You can either bolt it using a AN970-416 penny
washer and AN365-428 nytrol nut on the inside, or take the time to
install
1/4" anchor nuts for easier installation/removal for next time.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter, Juliet, & Wanaao" <northofsixty@mac.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 1:33 AM
Subject: Re: Help:Removing horizontal stab

Wayne:

This is the reason I am taking the Rebel in to my garage to have a
close look at her. If
I remember correctly he has four rivets in the front stab attachment
bracket where it attaches to the tail cone. It looks like I will have
to remove that rear bulkhead and replace it because of all the holes
he
had drilled into it. I will try to get a picture of it.

Thank,

Peter Piascik


On Saturday, January 3, 2004, at 09:20 PM, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

The Horizontal Stab should DEFINITELY not be riveted to the aircraft,
so
good thing you were looking before flying any further and leaving
your
wife/kids behind from the possible aftermath!!.

The forward stab fittings should be bolted with >ONE< 1/4" bolt per
side,
the same as the rear fitting. Don't know how yours is riveted, but I
suspect
someone was too lazy to crawl into the tailcone and install a couple
anchor
nuts (and thought they'd just make the stab attachments match the
fins
9
rivet attachment ??). Any more than one attachment bolt on the front
fitting
turns the front stab spar into a cantilever beam and may cause the
spar to
crack/break just outboard of the attach fitting due to it taking the
loads
instead of letting them transfer back to the rear spar and "lift"
strut like
they are supposed to.

If the builder took such a short cut here, where else did he/she
adlib
elsewhere in the airframe. Make sure you have a good look at
EVERYTHING and
compare to the builders manual as you go. Get out the
mirror/flashlight etc
and start looking into everything you can.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter, Juliet, & Wanaao" <northofsixty@mac.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 11:10 PM
Subject: Help:Removing horizontal stab

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[mike.davis]

On 1/4/2004 2:09 PM, MURPHY-REBEL@DCSOL.COM wrote to MIKE DAVIS:

I have added "DO NOT DO THIS!" to the photos description...

Mike

Mike Davis -

Please change the title of the photo in the archives of the riveted
front
horizontal stabilizer attached point to indicate that riveting is not
the
correct assembly technique. We don't want someone to look at this photo
out
of context and do it that way.

The riveted front stab attach photo name in the archive is DSCN3987.jpg.
Renaming it to something like "incorrect technique front stab point .
jpg"
would be a useful thing to do.

Thanks

B. Brady
Rebel 199 (flying with 105 hours)

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

If he used the single hole at the end of the fitting that was intended for a
bolt, you should be able to reuse this hole. Rear bulkhead should have a
.032 doubler sheet riveted to the top 1/2 of the bulkhead. As long as this
is there you should be able to just drill out the rivet and open up the
proper hole up to 1/4". You can either bolt it using a AN970-416 penny
washer and AN365-428 nytrol nut on the inside, or take the time to install
1/4" anchor nuts for easier installation/removal for next time.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter, Juliet, & Wanaao" <northofsixty@mac.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 1:33 AM
Subject: Re: Help:Removing horizontal stab

Wayne:

This is the reason I am taking the Rebel in to my garage to have a
close look at her. If
I remember correctly he has four rivets in the front stab attachment
bracket where it attaches to the tail cone. It looks like I will have
to remove that rear bulkhead and replace it because of all the holes he
had drilled into it. I will try to get a picture of it.

Thank,

Peter Piascik


On Saturday, January 3, 2004, at 09:20 PM, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

The Horizontal Stab should DEFINITELY not be riveted to the aircraft,
so
good thing you were looking before flying any further and leaving your
wife/kids behind from the possible aftermath!!.

The forward stab fittings should be bolted with >ONE< 1/4" bolt per
side,
the same as the rear fitting. Don't know how yours is riveted, but I
suspect
someone was too lazy to crawl into the tailcone and install a couple
anchor
nuts (and thought they'd just make the stab attachments match the fins
9
rivet attachment ??). Any more than one attachment bolt on the front
fitting
turns the front stab spar into a cantilever beam and may cause the
spar to
crack/break just outboard of the attach fitting due to it taking the
loads
instead of letting them transfer back to the rear spar and "lift"
strut like
they are supposed to.

If the builder took such a short cut here, where else did he/she adlib
elsewhere in the airframe. Make sure you have a good look at
EVERYTHING and
compare to the builders manual as you go. Get out the
mirror/flashlight etc
and start looking into everything you can.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter, Juliet, & Wanaao" <northofsixty@mac.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 11:10 PM
Subject: Help:Removing horizontal stab

I put my Rebel in a heated hanger here in Yellowknife to remove wings
and horiz. stab. When I removed the inspection panels
on the tail, I found that the forward spar on the stab is riveted to
the tail. Rebel said that the tail removes easily. How can I remove
the
horizontal stab?


Any help will be appreciated,

Peter Piascik

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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Peter !

OMG !!! I'm astounded that someone could do what looks
like reasonably good workmanship, and then make such a radical,
life-threatening change to the construction methods without at
least asking anybody !! If this builder has worked on other
Rebels, do us all a favour and let us know who to beware of !

I congratulate you on your decision to have a really good
look through the airplane !! Somebody is VERY lucky to be walking
around alive after flying THIS setup !!!!

It does look like it can be salvaged, though - wait for
Wayne's comments.

By all means, check out the rest of it - maybe the wing
root ribs and attach points need a look, and especially the gear,
if you are unforunate enough to have spring gear ...

Good luck !
.....bobp

--------------------------------orig.--------------------------------
At 09:51 AM 1/4/04 -0700, you wrote:

Wayne:

I just upload two files:

Forward and rear stab attachment bracket

Peter



On Sunday, January 4, 2004, at 09:07 AM, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

If he used the single hole at the end of the fitting that was intended
for a
bolt, you should be able to reuse this hole. Rear bulkhead should have
a
.032 doubler sheet riveted to the top 1/2 of the bulkhead. As long as
this
is there you should be able to just drill out the rivet and open up the
proper hole up to 1/4". You can either bolt it using a AN970-416 penny
washer and AN365-428 nytrol nut on the inside, or take the time to
install
1/4" anchor nuts for easier installation/removal for next time.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter, Juliet, & Wanaao" <northofsixty@mac.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 1:33 AM
Subject: Re: Help:Removing horizontal stab

Wayne:

This is the reason I am taking the Rebel in to my garage to have a
close look at her. If
I remember correctly he has four rivets in the front stab attachment
bracket where it attaches to the tail cone. It looks like I will have
to remove that rear bulkhead and replace it because of all the holes
he
had drilled into it. I will try to get a picture of it.

Thank,

Peter Piascik


On Saturday, January 3, 2004, at 09:20 PM, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

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[brady02]

Mike Davis -

Please change the title of the photo in the archives of the riveted
front
horizontal stabilizer attached point to indicate that riveting is not
the
correct assembly technique. We don't want someone to look at this photo
out
of context and do it that way.

The riveted front stab attach photo name in the archive is DSCN3987.jpg.
Renaming it to something like "incorrect technique front stab point .
jpg"
would be a useful thing to do.

Thanks

B. Brady
Rebel 199 (flying with 105 hours)

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Bob
Patterson
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 1:29 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Help:Removing horizontal stab


Hi Peter !

OMG !!! I'm astounded that someone could do what looks
like reasonably good workmanship, and then make such a radical,
life-threatening change to the construction methods without at
least asking anybody !! If this builder has worked on other
Rebels, do us all a favour and let us know who to beware of !

I congratulate you on your decision to have a really good
look through the airplane !! Somebody is VERY lucky to be walking
around alive after flying THIS setup !!!!

It does look like it can be salvaged, though - wait for
Wayne's comments.

By all means, check out the rest of it - maybe the wing
root ribs and attach points need a look, and especially the gear,
if you are unforunate enough to have spring gear ...

Good luck !
.....bobp

--------------------------------orig.--------------------------------
At 09:51 AM 1/4/04 -0700, you wrote:

Wayne:

I just upload two files:

Forward and rear stab attachment bracket

Peter



On Sunday, January 4, 2004, at 09:07 AM, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

If he used the single hole at the end of the fitting that was

intended

for a
bolt, you should be able to reuse this hole. Rear bulkhead should

have

a
.032 doubler sheet riveted to the top 1/2 of the bulkhead. As long as

this
is there you should be able to just drill out the rivet and open up

the

proper hole up to 1/4". You can either bolt it using a AN970-416

penny

washer and AN365-428 nytrol nut on the inside, or take the time to
install
1/4" anchor nuts for easier installation/removal for next time.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter, Juliet, & Wanaao" <northofsixty@mac.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 1:33 AM
Subject: Re: Help:Removing horizontal stab

Wayne:

This is the reason I am taking the Rebel in to my garage to have a
close look at her. If
I remember correctly he has four rivets in the front stab attachment
bracket where it attaches to the tail cone. It looks like I will

have

to remove that rear bulkhead and replace it because of all the holes

he
had drilled into it. I will try to get a picture of it.

Thank,

Peter Piascik


On Saturday, January 3, 2004, at 09:20 PM, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

aircraft,

I

couple

front

the

to

remove

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[Peter, Juliet, & Wanaao]

Thanks for all the input guys.

I have drilled out all the rivets and have removed stab.

Peter Piascik


On Sunday, January 4, 2004, at 04:10 PM, mike.davis@dcsol.com wrote:

On 1/4/2004 2:09 PM, MURPHY-REBEL@DCSOL.COM wrote to MIKE DAVIS:

I have added "DO NOT DO THIS!" to the photos description...

Mike

Mike Davis -

Please change the title of the photo in the archives of the riveted
front
horizontal stabilizer attached point to indicate that riveting is not
the
correct assembly technique. We don't want someone to look at this
photo
out
of context and do it that way.

The riveted front stab attach photo name in the archive is
DSCN3987.jpg.
Renaming it to something like "incorrect technique front stab point .
jpg"
would be a useful thing to do.

Thanks

B. Brady
Rebel 199 (flying with 105 hours)

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[Peter, Juliet, & Wanaao]

Thanks again Wayne.

Yes he did have the lift strut installed.

Peter



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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

I was going to suggest just removing them from the archives all together,
since they were already posted in the wrong location and Peter just wanted
help rectumfrying the situation. We definitely don't want a repeat on this
installation!!

----- Original Message -----
From: <mike.davis@dcsol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 6:10 PM
Subject: RE: Help:Removing horizontal stab

On 1/4/2004 2:09 PM, MURPHY-REBEL@DCSOL.COM wrote to MIKE DAVIS:

I have added "DO NOT DO THIS!" to the photos description...

Mike

Mike Davis -

Please change the title of the photo in the archives of the riveted
front
horizontal stabilizer attached point to indicate that riveting is not
the
correct assembly technique. We don't want someone to look at this photo
out
of context and do it that way.

The riveted front stab attach photo name in the archive is DSCN3987.jpg.
Renaming it to something like "incorrect technique front stab point .
jpg"
would be a useful thing to do.

Thanks

B. Brady
Rebel 199 (flying with 105 hours)

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Peter, sorry I missed your call but that is why I suggest emails only to cut
costs and wasted time. Had to run my Daughter back to Toronto and then Son
to Hamilton. Just got back 10:10PM.

Looking at the pictures... just take a punch and drive the mandrel out of
those 5 rivets. Then take a #11 or 3/16 drill and remove the rivets doing
the end one first and then open that hole up to 1/4" for the proper bolt
before you lose the alignment. Then drill the other 4 rivets out. After
remove be sure to debur all the holes as cleanly as you can and from there I
don't see them being a structural problem.

The only other thing I see in the pictures is the size of the cable
clearance hole between the stab attachment fittings concerns me slightly.
Hard to reach into the picture and see how flimsy that area is now! Instead
of what should have been a small slot 5/16 x 1 1/4", or so, looks like a 2"
diameter hole. I would at least add a few rivets around the hole to tie the
bulkhead and the .032 doubler plate together in this area to add a bit of
strength. I am assuming that the builder did put the "lift" struts from the
tail spring area to the rear stab spar and that these 5 rivets aren't what
is holding the stabs horizontal !!

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter, Juliet, & Wanaao" <northofsixty@mac.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: Help:Removing horizontal stab

Wayne:

I just upload two files:

Forward and rear stab attachment bracket

Peter



On Sunday, January 4, 2004, at 09:07 AM, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

If he used the single hole at the end of the fitting that was intended
for a
bolt, you should be able to reuse this hole. Rear bulkhead should have
a
.032 doubler sheet riveted to the top 1/2 of the bulkhead. As long as
this
is there you should be able to just drill out the rivet and open up the
proper hole up to 1/4". You can either bolt it using a AN970-416 penny
washer and AN365-428 nytrol nut on the inside, or take the time to
install
1/4" anchor nuts for easier installation/removal for next time.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter, Juliet, & Wanaao" <northofsixty@mac.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 1:33 AM
Subject: Re: Help:Removing horizontal stab

Wayne:

This is the reason I am taking the Rebel in to my garage to have a
close look at her. If
I remember correctly he has four rivets in the front stab attachment
bracket where it attaches to the tail cone. It looks like I will have
to remove that rear bulkhead and replace it because of all the holes
he
had drilled into it. I will try to get a picture of it.

Thank,

Peter Piascik


On Saturday, January 3, 2004, at 09:20 PM, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

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[Peter, Juliet, & Wanaao]

Hi guys:

I talked to Brian Godden of MAM and he said it was quite acceptable to
rivet the horizontal stab to the airframe. He said they designed the
tail so that you can fold the horizontal stab up against the rudder,
but if you will never do that riveting would be Ok. Go figure.

Peter





On Sunday, January 4, 2004, at 11:04 PM, Peter, Juliet, & Wanaao wrote:

Thanks again Wayne.

Yes he did have the lift strut installed.

Peter



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[Peter, Juliet, & Wanaao]

I'm going with what they have in the builders manuals, 1 - 1/4" bolt.

Peter


On Tuesday, January 6, 2004, at 08:58 PM, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

A funny response considering it is Darryl Murphy that advised a
builder that
his double bolting of the front attach fitting could cause the front
spar to
break outboard of the fitting (and told him to remove one bolt), since
it
turned the front spar into a cantilever beam and didn't allow the rear
spar/lift strut combination to do it's job! The front spar is just a
plain
channel with a fitting riveted on the end, where as the rear spar has
doublers on the spar etc to take the extra loads.

Go with what ever attachment you want to reinstall I guess (it's yours
and
of course your passengers asses!)!

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter, Juliet, & Wanaao" <northofsixty@mac.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: Help:Removing horizontal stab

Hi guys:

I talked to Brian Godden of MAM and he said it was quite acceptable to
rivet the horizontal stab to the airframe. He said they designed the
tail so that you can fold the horizontal stab up against the rudder,
but if you will never do that riveting would be Ok. Go figure.

Peter





On Sunday, January 4, 2004, at 11:04 PM, Peter, Juliet, & Wanaao
wrote:

Thanks again Wayne.

Yes he did have the lift strut installed.

Peter



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