IO-720

[Reed, Britt/FSC Salt Lake]

Had the pleasure of seeing Brent Brown's SR w/M14 (@ Bountiful airport Utah)
land last week. Sitting at the airport waiting for my friend to get back
with my brother from a cub ride I heard the call sign "experimental ###SR"
and jumped in the truck to see if it was him coming in. Nice dusk, non event
landing and he rumbled up to the hanger and took his time shutting down. He
got out grinning and couldn't say enough about how good everything was going
with 7 hrs in the air. Brent had had some trouble getting the engine started
initially apparently a mod was machined into the air distributor (unbenownst
to him) for starting and was holding the face plate a couple of mills off
from sealing and while a majority of the air was going to the correct
cylinder, there was also some air going to all of the other cylinders too -
causing it to turn less than enthusiastically. Brent found the problem by
measuring all of the components and adding them up - and finding the
discrepancy.

Brent likes the Radial and says it runs like a sewing machine with so much
power he doesn't even use full power on takeoff.

Here is the question - Brent mentioned that I ought to consider going with
an IO720 - Looking out on the net it seems like it weighs about 600 lbs
compared to 500 for a fully rigged IO540 - Any Thoughts??

PS

Having never seen a flying Super Rebel or ridden in one and having bought
into it lock stock and barrel - I gotta say that just being in the vicinity
is like putting a fire under me! - Working on my first wing spar woth
renewed vigor.

Britt SR194




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[Bill Delcambre]

Every time I hear IO-720, the same thing comes to mind; cooling problems.
My understanding is that even the certified aircraft that use them have
problems. Lots of power, reasonably easy to service, but you might well
have a lifetime of cooling issues. Be aware that you commit yourself to an
awful lot of small details when you use an engine not supported from the kit
manufacturer. This doesn't mean that you end up with an inferior or less
reliable package, just that you spend a great deal of time doing things that
others don't spend. (I admire the adventurous nature of the auto engine
guys, but don't envy their path) For instance, my cowl kit is in storage,
ready to install. Cowling up that 720 would be an adventure. You probably
wouldn't see any price advantage over the M14, though.

What were his reasons for recommending such?

Bill

----- Original Message -----
From: "Reed, Britt/FSC Salt Lake" <BReed@slcrail.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 9:46 AM
Subject: IO-720

Had the pleasure of seeing Brent Brown's SR w/M14 (@ Bountiful airport

Utah)

land last week. Sitting at the airport waiting for my friend to get back
with my brother from a cub ride I heard the call sign "experimental ###SR"
and jumped in the truck to see if it was him coming in. Nice dusk, non

event

landing and he rumbled up to the hanger and took his time shutting down.

He

got out grinning and couldn't say enough about how good everything was

going

with 7 hrs in the air. Brent had had some trouble getting the engine

started

initially apparently a mod was machined into the air distributor

(unbenownst

to him) for starting and was holding the face plate a couple of mills off
from sealing and while a majority of the air was going to the correct
cylinder, there was also some air going to all of the other cylinders

too -

causing it to turn less than enthusiastically. Brent found the problem by
measuring all of the components and adding them up - and finding the
discrepancy.

Brent likes the Radial and says it runs like a sewing machine with so much
power he doesn't even use full power on takeoff.

Here is the question - Brent mentioned that I ought to consider going with
an IO720 - Looking out on the net it seems like it weighs about 600 lbs
compared to 500 for a fully rigged IO540 - Any Thoughts??

PS

Having never seen a flying Super Rebel or ridden in one and having bought
into it lock stock and barrel - I gotta say that just being in the

vicinity

is like putting a fire under me! - Working on my first wing spar woth
renewed vigor.

Britt SR194

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[Al Paxhia]

As an IO540 builder there is enough takeoff power in a 540 to get you in the
air safely. I'm not sure what you get for the extra two cylinders. Are any
of you folks planning a turbine. With the 120 gal tanks, lighter weight
power, and upward of 500 hp, now that gets my heart pumping.
Al
Moose, N526AP
----- Original Message -----
From: <KJKimball@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: IO-720

One thing to consider is the cost of the IO-720. IIRC, a cam shaft for a

720

costs more than a new M14PF with all accessories.

Sincerely,

Kevin Kimball,
www.jimkimballenterprises.com
www.pittsmodel12.com

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[KJKimball]

One thing to consider is the cost of the IO-720. IIRC, a cam shaft for a 720
costs more than a new M14PF with all accessories.

Sincerely,

Kevin Kimball,
www.jimkimballenterprises.com
www.pittsmodel12.com



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[Al Paxhia]

Hi Britt,
You have a good point I would like to use lower octane fuel, but can't. I do
have the Nitrous, but have never pushed the button. It was tested on the
dyno to 430hp. My plan is to not use it but in the right circumstances its
there for an extra 100 hp.
Lycon put a 1000 hr TBO on my engine, but I believe I can do better because
I don't use the nitrous. Most of my takeoffs are off the ground in 500 ft or
less on grass with the amphibs and climbing at 60mph. As soon as I get off
the ground I turn the rpm down to 2550 or so to keep the neighbors from
complaining.
Good luck in your engine decision, there are lots of right answers.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Reed, Britt/FSC Salt Lake" <BReed@slcrail.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 3:17 PM
Subject: RE: IO-720

Al - I am shooting for the 360 Hp range of the M14 and may still go that

way

- I am also still open to some auto conversions. Seems like an IO540
pushing that much Hp has to run 100LL and maybe tends to a shorter TBO. My
backyard is the Idaho Backcountry and density altitude is scary - Also Was
that you that I remember something about Nitrous Oxide??

Britt

-----Original Message-----
From: Al Paxhia [mailto:paxhia2@comcast.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 4:09 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: IO-720


As an IO540 builder there is enough takeoff power in a 540 to get you in

the

air safely. I'm not sure what you get for the extra two cylinders. Are any
of you folks planning a turbine. With the 120 gal tanks, lighter weight
power, and upward of 500 hp, now that gets my heart pumping.
Al
Moose, N526AP
----- Original Message -----
From: <KJKimball@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: IO-720

One thing to consider is the cost of the IO-720. IIRC, a cam shaft for

a

720

costs more than a new M14PF with all accessories.

Sincerely,

Kevin Kimball,
www.jimkimballenterprises.com
www.pittsmodel12.com

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[Reed, Britt/FSC Salt Lake]

Al - I am shooting for the 360 Hp range of the M14 and may still go that way
- I am also still open to some auto conversions. Seems like an IO540
pushing that much Hp has to run 100LL and maybe tends to a shorter TBO. My
backyard is the Idaho Backcountry and density altitude is scary - Also Was
that you that I remember something about Nitrous Oxide??

Britt

-----Original Message-----
From: Al Paxhia [mailto:paxhia2@comcast.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 4:09 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: IO-720


As an IO540 builder there is enough takeoff power in a 540 to get you in the
air safely. I'm not sure what you get for the extra two cylinders. Are any
of you folks planning a turbine. With the 120 gal tanks, lighter weight
power, and upward of 500 hp, now that gets my heart pumping.
Al
Moose, N526AP
----- Original Message -----
From: <KJKimball@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: IO-720

One thing to consider is the cost of the IO-720. IIRC, a cam shaft for a

720

costs more than a new M14PF with all accessories.

Sincerely,

Kevin Kimball,
www.jimkimballenterprises.com
www.pittsmodel12.com

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[Reed, Britt/FSC Salt Lake]

Bill - I think he likes the familiarity with the systems - i.e. no air, no
pumping the crankcase out to the storage tank after flight, also the power.
He also said they were smooth and sounded sweet and a used one can be had
for the same price as a used IO540. His M14 dyno'd at 408 hp so he likes the
HP but I think he believes that it is kinda fuel hungry - He mentioned 12
gph @90 kts. I just called him up to make sure I get it right - He also
mentioned that he is suprisingly getting really attached to it (in spite of
lamenting that he put way to much into the avionics - as he puts it) and
regrettably is putting it up for sale (locally word of mouth so far) -
$150,000. He just bought an Aerostar and has a beautiful 2 seat tandem
aerobatic rig called a Omega 3 that he designed, tooled up and was going to
bring to production but bailed when he realized how many he would have to
sell to break even - Point being thathe has one too many airplanes and he is
really partial to the Omega 3 - So if someone wants a "Really Fast Build"
there you go -

Britt

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Delcambre [mailto:bdelcambre@cox-internet.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 9:17 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: IO-720


Every time I hear IO-720, the same thing comes to mind; cooling problems.
My understanding is that even the certified aircraft that use them have
problems. Lots of power, reasonably easy to service, but you might well
have a lifetime of cooling issues. Be aware that you commit yourself to an
awful lot of small details when you use an engine not supported from the kit
manufacturer. This doesn't mean that you end up with an inferior or less
reliable package, just that you spend a great deal of time doing things that
others don't spend. (I admire the adventurous nature of the auto engine
guys, but don't envy their path) For instance, my cowl kit is in storage,
ready to install. Cowling up that 720 would be an adventure. You probably
wouldn't see any price advantage over the M14, though.

What were his reasons for recommending such?

Bill



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[David Stroud]

There may be a lot of right answers with engine decisions but I doubt that an auto conversion
may be one of them at this point in time,depending on your priorities. I've flown auto conversions
for over 350 hrs but on a lesser scale. My Christavia now flys in a much more relaxed attitude and will
continue to do so with my old Lyc. Never experienced an auto conversion before? Have at it my friend.
I'd be the last one to try to convince you not to. Many looked at me knowing there was no way to stop me
anyway. Had to get it out of my system and did. I'll use a Housai radial in my Fairchild. The M14 seems
a natural for the Moose. I was going to put the Housai in a Moose and call it a Moose Lite.
With the abundance of the "modern" radials now available, the price ( time, frustration, danger + $$$)
makes an auto conversion a very poor alternative. And, conventional Lycs etc. are an expensive but
reliable alternative at the best of times. I know radials are not for everyone and I'm real keen on using
one now, but the auto conversions still haven't cracked the market as being an economical and reliable
substitute.

Dave Stroud, Ottawa, Canada
Christavia Mk 1 C-FDWS
Fairchild 51, early construction


----- Original Message -----
From: "Al Paxhia" <paxhia2@comcast.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: IO-720

Hi Britt,
You have a good point I would like to use lower octane fuel, but can't. I do
have the Nitrous, but have never pushed the button. It was tested on the
dyno to 430hp. My plan is to not use it but in the right circumstances its
there for an extra 100 hp.
Lycon put a 1000 hr TBO on my engine, but I believe I can do better because
I don't use the nitrous. Most of my takeoffs are off the ground in 500 ft or
less on grass with the amphibs and climbing at 60mph. As soon as I get off
the ground I turn the rpm down to 2550 or so to keep the neighbors from
complaining.
Good luck in your engine decision, there are lots of right answers.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Reed, Britt/FSC Salt Lake" <BReed@slcrail.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 3:17 PM
Subject: RE: IO-720

Al - I am shooting for the 360 Hp range of the M14 and may still go that

way

- I am also still open to some auto conversions. Seems like an IO540
pushing that much Hp has to run 100LL and maybe tends to a shorter TBO. My
backyard is the Idaho Backcountry and density altitude is scary - Also Was
that you that I remember something about Nitrous Oxide??

Britt

-----Original Message-----
From: Al Paxhia [mailto:paxhia2@comcast.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 4:09 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: IO-720


As an IO540 builder there is enough takeoff power in a 540 to get you in

the

air safely. I'm not sure what you get for the extra two cylinders. Are any
of you folks planning a turbine. With the 120 gal tanks, lighter weight
power, and upward of 500 hp, now that gets my heart pumping.
Al
Moose, N526AP
----- Original Message -----
From: <KJKimball@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: IO-720

One thing to consider is the cost of the IO-720. IIRC, a cam shaft for

a

720

costs more than a new M14PF with all accessories.

Sincerely,

Kevin Kimball,
www.jimkimballenterprises.com
www.pittsmodel12.com

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[Reed, Britt/FSC Salt Lake]

Al - I was out looking at IO720 stuff and came across the "Sherpa" - They
offer layouts for the M14P, both the nonturbo and the turbo IO 720 and the
turbine - Holy Smokes (cheapest kit price $119,000US) -
http://www.sherpaaircraft.com/news/news-updatesII.htm - there is a picture
of the IO720 and it does look out of proportion (and probably overkill since
the gross on that is like 4900 lbs) - Makes the M14 look kinda sleek -

Britt




-----Original Message-----
From: Al Paxhia [mailto:paxhia2@comcast.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 5:29 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: IO-720


Hi Britt,
You have a good point I would like to use lower octane fuel, but can't. I do
have the Nitrous, but have never pushed the button. It was tested on the
dyno to 430hp. My plan is to not use it but in the right circumstances its
there for an extra 100 hp.
Lycon put a 1000 hr TBO on my engine, but I believe I can do better because
I don't use the nitrous. Most of my takeoffs are off the ground in 500 ft or
less on grass with the amphibs and climbing at 60mph. As soon as I get off
the ground I turn the rpm down to 2550 or so to keep the neighbors from
complaining.
Good luck in your engine decision, there are lots of right answers.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Reed, Britt/FSC Salt Lake" <BReed@slcrail.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 3:17 PM
Subject: RE: IO-720

Al - I am shooting for the 360 Hp range of the M14 and may still go that

way

- I am also still open to some auto conversions. Seems like an IO540
pushing that much Hp has to run 100LL and maybe tends to a shorter TBO. My
backyard is the Idaho Backcountry and density altitude is scary - Also Was
that you that I remember something about Nitrous Oxide??

Britt

-----Original Message-----
From: Al Paxhia [mailto:paxhia2@comcast.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 4:09 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: IO-720

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