Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite

[Wayne G. O'Shea]

When I built Mike Fullers fuselage I got his lip down to 1" and this is
strictly for the windshield retainer to sit on. I trial fitted some
windshields I had here and with a bit of liberal trimming I was able to get
the windshield to sit totally behind the firewall, so there is no fear of a
fire getting behind the glass... as is the case when you put it out on MAM's
3"? lip that they supplied aluminum and not stainless for.

If you still want to hang the windshield out over the firewall lip, per the
manual, make sure you change to stainless or galvanized material for both
your own sake and the fact that an MDRA inspector that is awake the day of
inspection will snag your final inspection (and that ain't an easy piece to
change after the windshield's been installed) !!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 7:55 PM
Subject: Rebel Firewall, was Empty C of G-Rebel on Floats

Actually I found the lip/shelf turned out to be considerably smaller
than the manual indicated. Nothing seems to be more crowded yet since
the relationship of the pedals to the firewall is unchanged when the
firewall is moved back.

Ken

Legeorgen@aol.com wrote:

HI Walter,

I can tell you what I don't like about the cut back firewall is the

extended

lip/shelf on the firewall to support the windshield. Not to mention the

3" of

leg room under the panel. It gets pretty crowded down there with

hydraulic

lines, gas lines, cables etc..

My empty C&G is 10 with battery in the tail and original firewall. I

don't

have experience in flying another Rebel but I don't find it a problem in

mine.

Everything we put in the plane is aft loading including fuel.

With 250 lb. behind the seat, me and enough fuel to be Gross weight

(that's

the most aft C&G possible) I'm at the back of the recommended envelope

but

still legal. It doesn't get any better than that.

I'm keeping my eyes open for a good composite prop with an electrical

pitch

that doesn't cost 10 or 12 grand US like the Whirlwind. In the mean time

we do

all right with our Sensenich and good peace of mine, eh?

Looks like I'll be fitting the Amphibs in January now. Remodel on the

house

this month. Vacation to Calif. the week before Christmas and then the

holidays.

Bruce

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[klehman]

Wayne you got the shelf even smaller than me then. My shelf is not
permanently rivetted in yet because I made the first one out of aluminum
for easy fitting/trimming and sorting out how to do it. I figured I'd
end up making it more than once anyway. I have stainless sheet metal
here for it, but I will likely just add a little ceramic firecloth as I
am having trouble motivating myself to install the stainless. In my mind
the windshield and 0.020 cowl top are both very little protection from
fire anyway and ceramic cloth is supposed to be acceptable. I'm sure
Curt would add that yes seconds do matter when it comes to fire so I'll
do something there. Then there are the two shelf support brackets which
should probably be stainless as well. rivets?

The inspector also recommended covering the firewall flanges with red
silicone where they rivet to the to the aluminum skins. Seems a bit
Mickey Mouse but better than nothing I guess. I'll at least use
itumescent caulk there.

Then there are all those 2" aluminum cabin heat control valves.
Stainless valves are available but usually I see aluminum ones installed
and we can guess how long that will keep a fire out of the cockpit. Well
maybe a few seconds longer than the big nylon electric wire passthrough
grommets that are becoming popular. I've elected to use 1.25" inch
stainless bathroom grab handle elbows with firesleeve as per Bob
Knuckoll's recommendation for the wires. OK I'm venting a bit but it
seems that most firewalls look to be there to survive a quick glance
from the inspector rather than be effective for slowing a fire...

Ken

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

When I built Mike Fullers fuselage I got his lip down to 1" and this is
strictly for the windshield retainer to sit on. I trial fitted some
windshields I had here and with a bit of liberal trimming I was able to get
the windshield to sit totally behind the firewall, so there is no fear of a
fire getting behind the glass... as is the case when you put it out on MAM's
3"? lip that they supplied aluminum and not stainless for.

If you still want to hang the windshield out over the firewall lip, per the
manual, make sure you change to stainless or galvanized material for both
your own sake and the fact that an MDRA inspector that is awake the day of
inspection will snag your final inspection (and that ain't an easy piece to
change after the windshield's been installed) !!

Wayne

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[Murray Cherkas]

Just a thought. What about all those planes with header tanks sitting on the
pilots lap.
Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 7:53 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite


Ken, dug through my pics and the lip I put on Fullers actually sticks out 1
1/2" to pick up the windshield retainer and still leave enough lip for the
cowling to sit on, but the windshield itself would not sit out past the
original firewall stainless lip.

Your totally right about all the places that fire could enter the cockpit,
but I was just spelling out the firewall integrity of the lip itself. The
problem of this "fireproof" firewall and it's associated fittings, where
does the inspector/builder stop making it a sealed unit. It used to be
alright to put primer lines etc through grommets so there wasn't all those
extra fittings to leak/buy etc. Now some inspectors snag you if you don't
have bulkhead fittings (and they must be steel if under 1/2" I believe it is
(don' t quote me), but it's still just fine to run the throttle, mixture and
carb heat cables through a grommet, so what's the difference??. What's next,
are they going to expect everyone to put $$$ MIL spec Canon connectors on
all the wiring as well, like in a military installations (as my UTVA's
have). Next all of our heat box controls are going to have to be stainless
and either way it's a gapping 2" hole through the firewall.

Ever look at a Kitfox/Avid flyer? The fiberglass cowling is what closes off
the entire top section of the firewall from the cabin. Could never figure
out how they could pass something like this, and in the next heartbeat
ground Toby/George's because it had an aluminum firewall and then after the
fiberfax installation they still questioned the glue they used to install
same!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite

Wayne you got the shelf even smaller than me then. My shelf is not
permanently rivetted in yet because I made the first one out of aluminum
for easy fitting/trimming and sorting out how to do it. I figured I'd
end up making it more than once anyway. I have stainless sheet metal
here for it, but I will likely just add a little ceramic firecloth as I
am having trouble motivating myself to install the stainless. In my mind
the windshield and 0.020 cowl top are both very little protection from
fire anyway and ceramic cloth is supposed to be acceptable. I'm sure
Curt would add that yes seconds do matter when it comes to fire so I'll
do something there. Then there are the two shelf support brackets which
should probably be stainless as well. rivets?

The inspector also recommended covering the firewall flanges with red
silicone where they rivet to the to the aluminum skins. Seems a bit
Mickey Mouse but better than nothing I guess. I'll at least use
itumescent caulk there.

Then there are all those 2" aluminum cabin heat control valves.
Stainless valves are available but usually I see aluminum ones installed
and we can guess how long that will keep a fire out of the cockpit. Well
maybe a few seconds longer than the big nylon electric wire passthrough
grommets that are becoming popular. I've elected to use 1.25" inch
stainless bathroom grab handle elbows with firesleeve as per Bob
Knuckoll's recommendation for the wires. OK I'm venting a bit but it
seems that most firewalls look to be there to survive a quick glance
from the inspector rather than be effective for slowing a fire...

Ken

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

When I built Mike Fullers fuselage I got his lip down to 1" and this is
strictly for the windshield retainer to sit on. I trial fitted some
windshields I had here and with a bit of liberal trimming I was able to

get

the windshield to sit totally behind the firewall, so there is no fear

of a

fire getting behind the glass... as is the case when you put it out on

MAM's

3"? lip that they supplied aluminum and not stainless for.

If you still want to hang the windshield out over the firewall lip, per

the

manual, make sure you change to stainless or galvanized material for

both

your own sake and the fact that an MDRA inspector that is awake the day

of

inspection will snag your final inspection (and that ain't an easy piece

to

change after the windshield's been installed) !!

Wayne

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Ken, dug through my pics and the lip I put on Fullers actually sticks out 1
1/2" to pick up the windshield retainer and still leave enough lip for the
cowling to sit on, but the windshield itself would not sit out past the
original firewall stainless lip.

Your totally right about all the places that fire could enter the cockpit,
but I was just spelling out the firewall integrity of the lip itself. The
problem of this "fireproof" firewall and it's associated fittings, where
does the inspector/builder stop making it a sealed unit. It used to be
alright to put primer lines etc through grommets so there wasn't all those
extra fittings to leak/buy etc. Now some inspectors snag you if you don't
have bulkhead fittings (and they must be steel if under 1/2" I believe it is
(don' t quote me), but it's still just fine to run the throttle, mixture and
carb heat cables through a grommet, so what's the difference??. What's next,
are they going to expect everyone to put $$$ MIL spec Canon connectors on
all the wiring as well, like in a military installations (as my UTVA's
have). Next all of our heat box controls are going to have to be stainless
and either way it's a gapping 2" hole through the firewall.

Ever look at a Kitfox/Avid flyer? The fiberglass cowling is what closes off
the entire top section of the firewall from the cabin. Could never figure
out how they could pass something like this, and in the next heartbeat
ground Toby/George's because it had an aluminum firewall and then after the
fiberfax installation they still questioned the glue they used to install
same!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite

Wayne you got the shelf even smaller than me then. My shelf is not
permanently rivetted in yet because I made the first one out of aluminum
for easy fitting/trimming and sorting out how to do it. I figured I'd
end up making it more than once anyway. I have stainless sheet metal
here for it, but I will likely just add a little ceramic firecloth as I
am having trouble motivating myself to install the stainless. In my mind
the windshield and 0.020 cowl top are both very little protection from
fire anyway and ceramic cloth is supposed to be acceptable. I'm sure
Curt would add that yes seconds do matter when it comes to fire so I'll
do something there. Then there are the two shelf support brackets which
should probably be stainless as well. rivets?

The inspector also recommended covering the firewall flanges with red
silicone where they rivet to the to the aluminum skins. Seems a bit
Mickey Mouse but better than nothing I guess. I'll at least use
itumescent caulk there.

Then there are all those 2" aluminum cabin heat control valves.
Stainless valves are available but usually I see aluminum ones installed
and we can guess how long that will keep a fire out of the cockpit. Well
maybe a few seconds longer than the big nylon electric wire passthrough
grommets that are becoming popular. I've elected to use 1.25" inch
stainless bathroom grab handle elbows with firesleeve as per Bob
Knuckoll's recommendation for the wires. OK I'm venting a bit but it
seems that most firewalls look to be there to survive a quick glance
from the inspector rather than be effective for slowing a fire...

Ken

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

When I built Mike Fullers fuselage I got his lip down to 1" and this is
strictly for the windshield retainer to sit on. I trial fitted some
windshields I had here and with a bit of liberal trimming I was able to

get

the windshield to sit totally behind the firewall, so there is no fear

of a

fire getting behind the glass... as is the case when you put it out on

MAM's

3"? lip that they supplied aluminum and not stainless for.

If you still want to hang the windshield out over the firewall lip, per

the

manual, make sure you change to stainless or galvanized material for

both

your own sake and the fact that an MDRA inspector that is awake the day

of

inspection will snag your final inspection (and that ain't an easy piece

to

change after the windshield's been installed) !!

Wayne

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Not a fire hazard in flight! Just when you crash and the thing bust open all
over your lap and just then a wire pops off a switch to add the spark!!. 99%
of the Zenairs out there are this way, as are Taylor crafts, J3/J4/J5 cubs
etc all have a nose tank up under the panel.
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Murray Cherkas" <cherkas@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 11:05 PM
Subject: RE: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite

Just a thought. What about all those planes with header tanks sitting on

the

pilots lap.
Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 7:53 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite


Ken, dug through my pics and the lip I put on Fullers actually sticks out

1

1/2" to pick up the windshield retainer and still leave enough lip for the
cowling to sit on, but the windshield itself would not sit out past the
original firewall stainless lip.

Your totally right about all the places that fire could enter the cockpit,
but I was just spelling out the firewall integrity of the lip itself. The
problem of this "fireproof" firewall and it's associated fittings, where
does the inspector/builder stop making it a sealed unit. It used to be
alright to put primer lines etc through grommets so there wasn't all those
extra fittings to leak/buy etc. Now some inspectors snag you if you don't
have bulkhead fittings (and they must be steel if under 1/2" I believe it

is

(don' t quote me), but it's still just fine to run the throttle, mixture

and

carb heat cables through a grommet, so what's the difference??. What's

next,

are they going to expect everyone to put $$$ MIL spec Canon connectors on
all the wiring as well, like in a military installations (as my UTVA's
have). Next all of our heat box controls are going to have to be stainless
and either way it's a gapping 2" hole through the firewall.

Ever look at a Kitfox/Avid flyer? The fiberglass cowling is what closes

off

the entire top section of the firewall from the cabin. Could never figure
out how they could pass something like this, and in the next heartbeat
ground Toby/George's because it had an aluminum firewall and then after

the

fiberfax installation they still questioned the glue they used to install
same!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite

Wayne you got the shelf even smaller than me then. My shelf is not
permanently rivetted in yet because I made the first one out of aluminum
for easy fitting/trimming and sorting out how to do it. I figured I'd
end up making it more than once anyway. I have stainless sheet metal
here for it, but I will likely just add a little ceramic firecloth as I
am having trouble motivating myself to install the stainless. In my mind
the windshield and 0.020 cowl top are both very little protection from
fire anyway and ceramic cloth is supposed to be acceptable. I'm sure
Curt would add that yes seconds do matter when it comes to fire so I'll
do something there. Then there are the two shelf support brackets which
should probably be stainless as well. rivets?

The inspector also recommended covering the firewall flanges with red
silicone where they rivet to the to the aluminum skins. Seems a bit
Mickey Mouse but better than nothing I guess. I'll at least use
itumescent caulk there.

Then there are all those 2" aluminum cabin heat control valves.
Stainless valves are available but usually I see aluminum ones installed
and we can guess how long that will keep a fire out of the cockpit. Well
maybe a few seconds longer than the big nylon electric wire passthrough
grommets that are becoming popular. I've elected to use 1.25" inch
stainless bathroom grab handle elbows with firesleeve as per Bob
Knuckoll's recommendation for the wires. OK I'm venting a bit but it
seems that most firewalls look to be there to survive a quick glance
from the inspector rather than be effective for slowing a fire...

Ken

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

When I built Mike Fullers fuselage I got his lip down to 1" and this

is

strictly for the windshield retainer to sit on. I trial fitted some
windshields I had here and with a bit of liberal trimming I was able

to

get

the windshield to sit totally behind the firewall, so there is no fear

of a

fire getting behind the glass... as is the case when you put it out on

MAM's

3"? lip that they supplied aluminum and not stainless for.

If you still want to hang the windshield out over the firewall lip,

per

the

manual, make sure you change to stainless or galvanized material for

both

your own sake and the fact that an MDRA inspector that is awake the

day

of

inspection will snag your final inspection (and that ain't an easy

piece

to

change after the windshield's been installed) !!

Wayne

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[Legeorgen]

Makes you want to quit flying, eh? There is a lot of truth to the saying "a
flying coffin."

Bruce




Not a fire hazard in flight! Just when you crash and the thing bust open all
over your lap and just then a wire pops off a switch to add the spark!!. 99%
of the Zenairs out there are this way, as are Taylor crafts, J3/J4/J5 cubs
etc all have a nose tank up under the panel.
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Murray Cherkas" <cherkas@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 11:05 PM
Subject: RE: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite

Just a thought. What about all those planes with header tanks sitting on

the

pilots lap.
Murray

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[Walter Klatt]

Reminds me of the some of the discussions I've had with
non-flying people. If they really listened to themselves, they
wouldn't drive either. We're all going to die, it's just a
question of when. But while I'm down here, I'm going to make the
most of it, and for as long as possible. That's means avoiding
stupid risks, and minimizing the rest at a reasonable cost. And
that requires information and listening to past experience.

So having said that, I wouldn't mind hearing of in-flight fires
under the cowl. Does that really happen? I would shut off the
fuel. Wouldn't that stop it pretty quick? I can see the ground
one being more likely, trying to start a flooded engine, but at
worst I would jump out of the airplane in that case. And in a
crash, I think wings tanks are definitely a good thing.

I know fibreglass can burn, so not sure if these cowls can be
more of a risk in that regard. Again, am having trouble imagining
how that can happen in flight. However, one of the locals here
wants to do his cowl using some kind of fire resistant additive
or material. I just don't know if this is a real risk or not.

Would be interested in your opinions on the risk side and
examples of in-flight engine fires.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Legeorgen@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 8:39 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite


Makes you want to quit flying, eh? There is a lot of
truth to the saying "a
flying coffin."

Bruce




Not a fire hazard in flight! Just when you crash and
the thing bust open all
over your lap and just then a wire pops off a switch
to add the spark!!. 99%
of the Zenairs out there are this way, as are Taylor
crafts, J3/J4/J5 cubs
etc all have a nose tank up under the panel.
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Murray Cherkas" <cherkas@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 11:05 PM
Subject: RE: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite

Just a thought. What about all those planes with

header tanks sitting on
the

pilots lap.
Murray

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[Keith B. Oliver]

I am planning to add a Halon fire suppression system to my ac
Haven't fully thought it out yet.
Thinking along the lines of a perforated tube inside of cowl area, connected
to a portable Halon type extinguisher (allows for dual use) in the cockpit
Thinking Stage

Keith Oliver
kboliver@adelphia.net
Elite #654 TD
N654ME (reserved)
Farmingdale, Maine




-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Walter Klatt
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 10:08 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite


Reminds me of the some of the discussions I've had with
non-flying people. If they really listened to themselves, they
wouldn't drive either. We're all going to die, it's just a
question of when. But while I'm down here, I'm going to make the
most of it, and for as long as possible. That's means avoiding
stupid risks, and minimizing the rest at a reasonable cost. And
that requires information and listening to past experience.

So having said that, I wouldn't mind hearing of in-flight fires
under the cowl. Does that really happen? I would shut off the
fuel. Wouldn't that stop it pretty quick? I can see the ground
one being more likely, trying to start a flooded engine, but at
worst I would jump out of the airplane in that case. And in a
crash, I think wings tanks are definitely a good thing.

I know fibreglass can burn, so not sure if these cowls can be
more of a risk in that regard. Again, am having trouble imagining
how that can happen in flight. However, one of the locals here
wants to do his cowl using some kind of fire resistant additive
or material. I just don't know if this is a real risk or not.

Would be interested in your opinions on the risk side and
examples of in-flight engine fires.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Legeorgen@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 8:39 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite


Makes you want to quit flying, eh? There is a lot of
truth to the saying "a
flying coffin."

Bruce




Not a fire hazard in flight! Just when you crash and
the thing bust open all
over your lap and just then a wire pops off a switch
to add the spark!!. 99%
of the Zenairs out there are this way, as are Taylor
crafts, J3/J4/J5 cubs
etc all have a nose tank up under the panel.
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Murray Cherkas" <cherkas@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 11:05 PM
Subject: RE: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite

Just a thought. What about all those planes with

header tanks sitting on
the

pilots lap.
Murray

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[BCairboat]

Walter Hello
In flight fires happen a lot more often than one might think.
I have had two, one from a cracked fuel filter on an ultralight and the other
in a piper warrior from the cabin heat which set the carpet on fire in the
aircraft. You have no idea of what wanting to get on the ground means until this
occurrs. What is more important fuel is not the only combustible under the
cowling. If you over heat an engine and have a catastrophic failure, that is put
a rod through the case or just blow the casing off a pluged oil filter. Than
you have seven or eight quarts of boiling oil to burn. Hot engine oil burns
way better than gasoline and a glowing exhaust stack makes an excellent igniter.
I take cowling fire seriously enough to consider installing a home-made CO/2
dump into the cowling. Not only do you have to remove the oxygen and fuel but
you have to cool things down below flash point as well. I am sure we have all
seen burnt cars and trucks on the side of the road as a result of engine fire
I know if you have driven over the connector to Kelowna in the summer Walter
you have seen them too. Every weekend someone burns their vehicle up on the
hill climbing out of the valley. Climbing out of a high lake on floats at gross
weight has the same potential if not more as vehicle cooling systems are
superior to a tightly cowled aircraft.
Grant.



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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Now we know why Grant rides around in air boats now! Not far to the water...
when all hell breaks loose!! )

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <BCairboat@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite

Walter Hello
In flight fires happen a lot more often than one might think.
I have had two, one from a cracked fuel filter on an ultralight and the

other

in a piper warrior from the cabin heat which set the carpet on fire in the
aircraft. You have no idea of what wanting to get on the ground means

until this

occurrs. What is more important fuel is not the only combustible under the
cowling. If you over heat an engine and have a catastrophic failure, that

is put

a rod through the case or just blow the casing off a pluged oil filter.

Than

you have seven or eight quarts of boiling oil to burn. Hot engine oil

burns

way better than gasoline and a glowing exhaust stack makes an excellent

igniter.

I take cowling fire seriously enough to consider installing a home-made

CO/2

dump into the cowling. Not only do you have to remove the oxygen and fuel

but

you have to cool things down below flash point as well. I am sure we have

all

seen burnt cars and trucks on the side of the road as a result of engine

fire

I know if you have driven over the connector to Kelowna in the summer

Walter

you have seen them too. Every weekend someone burns their vehicle up on

the

hill climbing out of the valley. Climbing out of a high lake on floats at

gross

weight has the same potential if not more as vehicle cooling systems are
superior to a tightly cowled aircraft.
Grant.

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[Murray Cherkas]

Keith:

Halon is a thing of the past up here. We now use "Haletron". Iput a 5.3
pounder between the seats.

Good Luck
Murray



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Keith B. Oliver
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 9:10 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite


I am planning to add a Halon fire suppression system to my ac
Haven't fully thought it out yet.
Thinking along the lines of a perforated tube inside of cowl area, connected
to a portable Halon type extinguisher (allows for dual use) in the cockpit
Thinking Stage

Keith Oliver
kboliver@adelphia.net
Elite #654 TD
N654ME (reserved)
Farmingdale, Maine




-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Walter Klatt
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 10:08 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite


Reminds me of the some of the discussions I've had with
non-flying people. If they really listened to themselves, they
wouldn't drive either. We're all going to die, it's just a
question of when. But while I'm down here, I'm going to make the
most of it, and for as long as possible. That's means avoiding
stupid risks, and minimizing the rest at a reasonable cost. And
that requires information and listening to past experience.

So having said that, I wouldn't mind hearing of in-flight fires
under the cowl. Does that really happen? I would shut off the
fuel. Wouldn't that stop it pretty quick? I can see the ground
one being more likely, trying to start a flooded engine, but at
worst I would jump out of the airplane in that case. And in a
crash, I think wings tanks are definitely a good thing.

I know fibreglass can burn, so not sure if these cowls can be
more of a risk in that regard. Again, am having trouble imagining
how that can happen in flight. However, one of the locals here
wants to do his cowl using some kind of fire resistant additive
or material. I just don't know if this is a real risk or not.

Would be interested in your opinions on the risk side and
examples of in-flight engine fires.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Legeorgen@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 8:39 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite


Makes you want to quit flying, eh? There is a lot of
truth to the saying "a
flying coffin."

Bruce




Not a fire hazard in flight! Just when you crash and
the thing bust open all
over your lap and just then a wire pops off a switch
to add the spark!!. 99%
of the Zenairs out there are this way, as are Taylor
crafts, J3/J4/J5 cubs
etc all have a nose tank up under the panel.
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Murray Cherkas" <cherkas@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 11:05 PM
Subject: RE: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite

Just a thought. What about all those planes with

header tanks sitting on
the

pilots lap.
Murray

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[Walter Klatt]

Regarding the car fires on the long mountain climbs, this seems
to be a problem only with the expensive German cars, not sure
why, because with their power, would have thought their motors
wouldn't be working as hard.

Thanks for your sharing your experiences. For sure, I am very
concerned about in-flight fires, and using flammable materials
for carpets, etc. I didn't think oil was that flammable, though,
so that is certainly something to think about. I guess that's
where preventative maintenance and not overstressing the design
of the powerplant is important. I like power, but it has to be
reliable, too.

And also Bill's story on hydraulic fluid catching fire, again, I
would not have thought of that one. Certainly highlights the need
for a good firewall.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
BCairboat@aol.com
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 9:25 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite


Walter Hello
In flight fires happen a lot more often than one might think.
I have had two, one from a cracked fuel filter on an
ultralight and the other
in a piper warrior from the cabin heat which set the
carpet on fire in the
aircraft. You have no idea of what wanting to get on
the ground means until this
occurrs. What is more important fuel is not the only
combustible under the
cowling. If you over heat an engine and have a
catastrophic failure, that is put
a rod through the case or just blow the casing off a
pluged oil filter. Than
you have seven or eight quarts of boiling oil to burn.
Hot engine oil burns
way better than gasoline and a glowing exhaust stack
makes an excellent igniter.
I take cowling fire seriously enough to consider
installing a home-made CO/2
dump into the cowling. Not only do you have to remove
the oxygen and fuel but
you have to cool things down below flash point as
well. I am sure we have all
seen burnt cars and trucks on the side of the road as
a result of engine fire
I know if you have driven over the connector to
Kelowna in the summer Walter
you have seen them too. Every weekend someone burns
their vehicle up on the
hill climbing out of the valley. Climbing out of a
high lake on floats at gross
weight has the same potential if not more as vehicle
cooling systems are
superior to a tightly cowled aircraft.
Grant.



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[Keith B. Oliver]

Thanks
What's the difference ?

Keith Oliver
kboliver@adelphia.net
Elite #654 TD
N654ME (reserved)
Farmingdale, Maine




-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Murray Cherkas
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 10:56 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite


Keith:

Halon is a thing of the past up here. We now use "Haletron". Iput a 5.3
pounder between the seats.

Good Luck
Murray



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Keith B. Oliver
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 9:10 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite


I am planning to add a Halon fire suppression system to my ac
Haven't fully thought it out yet.
Thinking along the lines of a perforated tube inside of cowl area, connected
to a portable Halon type extinguisher (allows for dual use) in the cockpit
Thinking Stage

Keith Oliver
kboliver@adelphia.net
Elite #654 TD
N654ME (reserved)
Farmingdale, Maine




-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Walter Klatt
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 10:08 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite


Reminds me of the some of the discussions I've had with
non-flying people. If they really listened to themselves, they
wouldn't drive either. We're all going to die, it's just a
question of when. But while I'm down here, I'm going to make the
most of it, and for as long as possible. That's means avoiding
stupid risks, and minimizing the rest at a reasonable cost. And
that requires information and listening to past experience.

So having said that, I wouldn't mind hearing of in-flight fires
under the cowl. Does that really happen? I would shut off the
fuel. Wouldn't that stop it pretty quick? I can see the ground
one being more likely, trying to start a flooded engine, but at
worst I would jump out of the airplane in that case. And in a
crash, I think wings tanks are definitely a good thing.

I know fibreglass can burn, so not sure if these cowls can be
more of a risk in that regard. Again, am having trouble imagining
how that can happen in flight. However, one of the locals here
wants to do his cowl using some kind of fire resistant additive
or material. I just don't know if this is a real risk or not.

Would be interested in your opinions on the risk side and
examples of in-flight engine fires.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Legeorgen@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 8:39 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite


Makes you want to quit flying, eh? There is a lot of
truth to the saying "a
flying coffin."

Bruce




Not a fire hazard in flight! Just when you crash and
the thing bust open all
over your lap and just then a wire pops off a switch
to add the spark!!. 99%
of the Zenairs out there are this way, as are Taylor
crafts, J3/J4/J5 cubs
etc all have a nose tank up under the panel.
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Murray Cherkas" <cherkas@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 11:05 PM
Subject: RE: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite

Just a thought. What about all those planes with

header tanks sitting on
the

pilots lap.
Murray

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[Murray Cherkas]

Keith:

I'm not a techy. Don't ask the hard questions. You'll have to go to your
fire extinguisher plac e on that one.

Good luck
Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Keith B. Oliver
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 11:21 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite


Thanks
What's the difference ?

Keith Oliver
kboliver@adelphia.net
Elite #654 TD
N654ME (reserved)
Farmingdale, Maine




-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Murray Cherkas
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 10:56 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite


Keith:

Halon is a thing of the past up here. We now use "Haletron". Iput a 5.3
pounder between the seats.

Good Luck
Murray



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Keith B. Oliver
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 9:10 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite


I am planning to add a Halon fire suppression system to my ac
Haven't fully thought it out yet.
Thinking along the lines of a perforated tube inside of cowl area, connected
to a portable Halon type extinguisher (allows for dual use) in the cockpit
Thinking Stage

Keith Oliver
kboliver@adelphia.net
Elite #654 TD
N654ME (reserved)
Farmingdale, Maine




-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Walter Klatt
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 10:08 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite


Reminds me of the some of the discussions I've had with
non-flying people. If they really listened to themselves, they
wouldn't drive either. We're all going to die, it's just a
question of when. But while I'm down here, I'm going to make the
most of it, and for as long as possible. That's means avoiding
stupid risks, and minimizing the rest at a reasonable cost. And
that requires information and listening to past experience.

So having said that, I wouldn't mind hearing of in-flight fires
under the cowl. Does that really happen? I would shut off the
fuel. Wouldn't that stop it pretty quick? I can see the ground
one being more likely, trying to start a flooded engine, but at
worst I would jump out of the airplane in that case. And in a
crash, I think wings tanks are definitely a good thing.

I know fibreglass can burn, so not sure if these cowls can be
more of a risk in that regard. Again, am having trouble imagining
how that can happen in flight. However, one of the locals here
wants to do his cowl using some kind of fire resistant additive
or material. I just don't know if this is a real risk or not.

Would be interested in your opinions on the risk side and
examples of in-flight engine fires.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Legeorgen@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 8:39 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite


Makes you want to quit flying, eh? There is a lot of
truth to the saying "a
flying coffin."

Bruce




Not a fire hazard in flight! Just when you crash and
the thing bust open all
over your lap and just then a wire pops off a switch
to add the spark!!. 99%
of the Zenairs out there are this way, as are Taylor
crafts, J3/J4/J5 cubs
etc all have a nose tank up under the panel.
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Murray Cherkas" <cherkas@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 11:05 PM
Subject: RE: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite

Just a thought. What about all those planes with

header tanks sitting on
the

pilots lap.
Murray

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[Mike Davis]

Another bad thing about Halon is that it's very hard on electronics... if
you didn't black out from lack of oxygen after firing one off in a cockpit,
you'd probably still destroy your radio stack.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite

The original Halon extinguishers where banded here in Canada as, I

believe,

they (like many other things) helped eat a hole in the Ozone layer.
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Murray Cherkas" <cherkas@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 7:34 PM
Subject: RE: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite

Keith:

I'm not a techy. Don't ask the hard questions. You'll have to go to your
fire extinguisher plac e on that one.

Good luck
Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Keith B. Oliver
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 11:21 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite


Thanks
What's the difference ?

Keith Oliver
kboliver@adelphia.net
Elite #654 TD
N654ME (reserved)
Farmingdale, Maine




-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Murray Cherkas
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 10:56 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite


Keith:

Halon is a thing of the past up here. We now use "Haletron". Iput a 5.3
pounder between the seats.

Good Luck
Murray



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Keith B. Oliver
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 9:10 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite


I am planning to add a Halon fire suppression system to my ac
Haven't fully thought it out yet.
Thinking along the lines of a perforated tube inside of cowl area,

connected

to a portable Halon type extinguisher (allows for dual use) in the

cockpit

Thinking Stage

Keith Oliver
kboliver@adelphia.net
Elite #654 TD
N654ME (reserved)
Farmingdale, Maine




-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Walter Klatt
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 10:08 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite


Reminds me of the some of the discussions I've had with
non-flying people. If they really listened to themselves, they
wouldn't drive either. We're all going to die, it's just a
question of when. But while I'm down here, I'm going to make the
most of it, and for as long as possible. That's means avoiding
stupid risks, and minimizing the rest at a reasonable cost. And
that requires information and listening to past experience.

So having said that, I wouldn't mind hearing of in-flight fires
under the cowl. Does that really happen? I would shut off the
fuel. Wouldn't that stop it pretty quick? I can see the ground
one being more likely, trying to start a flooded engine, but at
worst I would jump out of the airplane in that case. And in a
crash, I think wings tanks are definitely a good thing.

I know fibreglass can burn, so not sure if these cowls can be
more of a risk in that regard. Again, am having trouble imagining
how that can happen in flight. However, one of the locals here
wants to do his cowl using some kind of fire resistant additive
or material. I just don't know if this is a real risk or not.

Would be interested in your opinions on the risk side and
examples of in-flight engine fires.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Legeorgen@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 8:39 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite


Makes you want to quit flying, eh? There is a lot of
truth to the saying "a
flying coffin."

Bruce




Not a fire hazard in flight! Just when you crash and
the thing bust open all
over your lap and just then a wire pops off a switch
to add the spark!!. 99%
of the Zenairs out there are this way, as are Taylor
crafts, J3/J4/J5 cubs
etc all have a nose tank up under the panel.
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Murray Cherkas" <cherkas@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 11:05 PM
Subject: RE: Windshield hanging over firewall lip - Rebel/Elite

header tanks sitting on
the
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