Empty C of G-Rebel on Floats

Walter Klatt · Post by **Walter Klatt** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:01 am

Is your step position now the same as on the MAM 1800's? If your
splice was all ahead of the step, and even with the noses 3"
forward, that would move your step and therefore wheel position
back quite a bit. Then you would have a lot more weight on your
front wheels which might explain why they are harder to hold off
on land. Probably on water it wouldn't matter, and not sure what
effect a more rearward step location has.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 7:04 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Empty C of G-Rebel on Floats

FOKM's a >BIT< ahead of that empty C of G Walter.
Pretty close to 10" (on
the 9" side of the line!!) thanks to the float noses
being 3" further
forward to keep the rear attach strut 90* to the
float. The step was 3"
further forward on the 1500's before I diced and
spliced the 21" into the
step area, so this moved the nose bumpers 3" further
forward than a typical
1800 installation. Firewall is not moved back and also
running a metal
propellor. Probably more a pilot (ME) technique
problem... than a real
problem, but the 20 lbs of water worked perfect until
I get better at "water
fun".

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 12:11 AM
Subject: RE: Float assesory - Evinrude Folding motor

What was your empty c of g with these floats? Mine is still a
little nose heavy at 10.7, but I never had that
problem. I still
have the battery in the front, and now also the heavier metal
prop, but my firewall is back 3 inches. When landing
on pavement,
though, I don't let the nose wheels get too high
before touching
down the mains, so they never have that far to drop, so don't
ever remember them banging down. Water landings always seem
comfortable, and I've done some pretty aggressive
downwind and
glassy water touchdowns. Many years ago, I used to fly an
ultralight on floats that liked to dig in, if I wasn't fast
enough on the stick, but not the Rebel. If I touch
down too fast
with the Rebel, the worst that happens is they
bounce up, and I
just need to hold it off a bit longer before landing
again. I've
done this when flying low due to fog and low clouds, and not
knowing exactly where the water surface was in glassy water
conditions, and it just touched and bounced up with
no adverse
pull or dig in. Mind you, I kept my speed down in these
conditions, with the flaps lowered, but it was still
around 70
mph. Normal touchdown speed is around 50 mph.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 5:05 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Float assesory - Evinrude Folding motor

Battery is only part way down the tailcone! It's a
bulkhead behind the rear
float point and it needs to be moved right to the
back, the same as Howard's
and that would fix the "teeter totter"!

I was just playing around and found that a gallon of
water in each rear
compartment was perfect for the time being (and much
quicker than actually
working on moving the battery!) and if loaded up just
pump the water out and
the ballast is gone. Also when I stretched the 1500's
into 1800's, due to
differences in the distance from the step to the rear
mounting position, the
nose of my floats are 3 inches further forward than a
factory set of floats,
so this adds to things as well.

Without the ballast, solo and 1/2 fuel it didn't
matter where the flaps
where, I could not hold the nose wheels off when
landing on pavement and
they would immediately bang down. With the gallon of
H2O in each rear
compartment I can hold the nose wheels off the ground
down to 45MPH and then
they just settle lightly with full up elevator input.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <Legeorgen@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: Float assesory - Evinrude Folding motor

ballast in the rear
float mounted on the firewall? Are
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Wayne G. O'Shea · Post by **Wayne G. O'Shea** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:01 am

FOKM's a >BIT< ahead of that empty C of G Walter. Pretty close to 10" (on
the 9" side of the line!!) thanks to the float noses being 3" further
forward to keep the rear attach strut 90* to the float. The step was 3"
further forward on the 1500's before I diced and spliced the 21" into the
step area, so this moved the nose bumpers 3" further forward than a typical
1800 installation. Firewall is not moved back and also running a metal
propellor. Probably more a pilot (ME) technique problem... than a real
problem, but the 20 lbs of water worked perfect until I get better at "water
fun".

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 12:11 AM
Subject: RE: Float assesory - Evinrude Folding motor

What was your empty c of g with these floats? Mine is still a
little nose heavy at 10.7, but I never had that problem. I still
have the battery in the front, and now also the heavier metal
prop, but my firewall is back 3 inches. When landing on pavement,
though, I don't let the nose wheels get too high before touching
down the mains, so they never have that far to drop, so don't
ever remember them banging down. Water landings always seem
comfortable, and I've done some pretty aggressive downwind and
glassy water touchdowns. Many years ago, I used to fly an
ultralight on floats that liked to dig in, if I wasn't fast
enough on the stick, but not the Rebel. If I touch down too fast
with the Rebel, the worst that happens is they bounce up, and I
just need to hold it off a bit longer before landing again. I've
done this when flying low due to fog and low clouds, and not
knowing exactly where the water surface was in glassy water
conditions, and it just touched and bounced up with no adverse
pull or dig in. Mind you, I kept my speed down in these
conditions, with the flaps lowered, but it was still around 70
mph. Normal touchdown speed is around 50 mph.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 5:05 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Float assesory - Evinrude Folding motor

Battery is only part way down the tailcone! It's a
bulkhead behind the rear
float point and it needs to be moved right to the
back, the same as Howard's
and that would fix the "teeter totter"!

I was just playing around and found that a gallon of
water in each rear
compartment was perfect for the time being (and much
quicker than actually
working on moving the battery!) and if loaded up just
pump the water out and
the ballast is gone. Also when I stretched the 1500's
into 1800's, due to
differences in the distance from the step to the rear
mounting position, the
nose of my floats are 3 inches further forward than a
factory set of floats,
so this adds to things as well.

Without the ballast, solo and 1/2 fuel it didn't
matter where the flaps
where, I could not hold the nose wheels off when
landing on pavement and
they would immediately bang down. With the gallon of
H2O in each rear
compartment I can hold the nose wheels off the ground
down to 45MPH and then
they just settle lightly with full up elevator input.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <Legeorgen@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: Float assesory - Evinrude Folding motor

Wayne,

I was wondering why you needed the two gallons of
ballast in the rear
float
compartment. Does FOKM still have the battery
mounted on the firewall? Are
you
using full flaps when you run out of flare?

Bruce

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Wayne G. O'Shea · Post by **Wayne G. O'Shea** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:01 am

The wheels and step have not moved from where they were as 1500's. The 1500
position was 3" further forward than the 1800's. I then added 21" into the
floats to make them identical in length to 1800's so the nose wheel is 3"
further out front as well. This main gear position should really make it
easier to hold the nose wheels off, but I think the extra weight being that
bit more forward just negates any advantage of it. If I move the 30lb
battery the rest of the way back I will almost double it's "arm" and make up
for the water in the rear compartments. Even a tool box or my Folding motor
in the back will do the same. Even a passenger made it nicer, it was just
flying solo with half tanks that was iffy! Maybe I should have listened to
the factory for the last 8 years and moved the firewall back 3
inches...>NOT<!!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:26 AM
Subject: RE: Empty C of G-Rebel on Floats

Is your step position now the same as on the MAM 1800's? If your
splice was all ahead of the step, and even with the noses 3"
forward, that would move your step and therefore wheel position
back quite a bit. Then you would have a lot more weight on your
front wheels which might explain why they are harder to hold off
on land. Probably on water it wouldn't matter, and not sure what
effect a more rearward step location has.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 7:04 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Empty C of G-Rebel on Floats

FOKM's a >BIT< ahead of that empty C of G Walter.
Pretty close to 10" (on
the 9" side of the line!!) thanks to the float noses
being 3" further
forward to keep the rear attach strut 90* to the
float. The step was 3"
further forward on the 1500's before I diced and
spliced the 21" into the
step area, so this moved the nose bumpers 3" further
forward than a typical
1800 installation. Firewall is not moved back and also
running a metal
propellor. Probably more a pilot (ME) technique
problem... than a real
problem, but the 20 lbs of water worked perfect until
I get better at "water
fun".

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 12:11 AM
Subject: RE: Float assesory - Evinrude Folding motor

What was your empty c of g with these floats? Mine is still a
little nose heavy at 10.7, but I never had that
problem. I still
have the battery in the front, and now also the heavier metal
prop, but my firewall is back 3 inches. When landing
on pavement,
though, I don't let the nose wheels get too high
before touching
down the mains, so they never have that far to drop, so don't
ever remember them banging down. Water landings always seem
comfortable, and I've done some pretty aggressive
downwind and
glassy water touchdowns. Many years ago, I used to fly an
ultralight on floats that liked to dig in, if I wasn't fast
enough on the stick, but not the Rebel. If I touch
down too fast
with the Rebel, the worst that happens is they
bounce up, and I
just need to hold it off a bit longer before landing
again. I've
done this when flying low due to fog and low clouds, and not
knowing exactly where the water surface was in glassy water
conditions, and it just touched and bounced up with
no adverse
pull or dig in. Mind you, I kept my speed down in these
conditions, with the flaps lowered, but it was still
around 70
mph. Normal touchdown speed is around 50 mph.

Walter

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Walter Klatt · Post by **Walter Klatt** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:01 am

OK, that makes sense then. I should mention also that I have a 20
pound survival pack at the back of my tail, and my battery on the
firewall is only 14 pounds. Thanks for sharing your c of g
experience with floats. I still remember all too well my early
tail dragger lessons and the challenges of landing a nose heavy
but lightly loaded plane.

Not sure what all you guys hate about the firewall back 3 inches.
I know the visibility is a bit worse in a bank, but it's not
great on the regular Rebel anyways.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 7:47 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Empty C of G-Rebel on Floats

The wheels and step have not moved from where they
were as 1500's. The 1500
position was 3" further forward than the 1800's. I
then added 21" into the
floats to make them identical in length to 1800's so
the nose wheel is 3"
further out front as well. This main gear position
should really make it
easier to hold the nose wheels off, but I think the
extra weight being that
bit more forward just negates any advantage of it. If
I move the 30lb
battery the rest of the way back I will almost double
it's "arm" and make up
for the water in the rear compartments. Even a tool
box or my Folding motor
in the back will do the same. Even a passenger made it
nicer, it was just
flying solo with half tanks that was iffy! Maybe I
should have listened to
the factory for the last 8 years and moved the firewall back 3
inches...>NOT<!!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:26 AM
Subject: RE: Empty C of G-Rebel on Floats

Is your step position now the same as on the MAM
1800's? If your
splice was all ahead of the step, and even with the noses 3"
forward, that would move your step and therefore
wheel position
back quite a bit. Then you would have a lot more
weight on your
front wheels which might explain why they are harder
to hold off
on land. Probably on water it wouldn't matter, and
not sure what
effect a more rearward step location has.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 7:04 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Empty C of G-Rebel on Floats

FOKM's a >BIT< ahead of that empty C of G Walter.
Pretty close to 10" (on
the 9" side of the line!!) thanks to the float noses
being 3" further
forward to keep the rear attach strut 90* to the
float. The step was 3"
further forward on the 1500's before I diced and
spliced the 21" into the
step area, so this moved the nose bumpers 3" further
forward than a typical
1800 installation. Firewall is not moved back and also
running a metal
propellor. Probably more a pilot (ME) technique
problem... than a real
problem, but the 20 lbs of water worked perfect until
I get better at "water
fun".

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 12:11 AM
Subject: RE: Float assesory - Evinrude Folding motor

Mine is still a
problem. I still
heavier metal
on pavement, before touching
drop, so don't
always seem
downwind and
wasn't fast
down too fast bounce up, and I again. I've
clouds, and not
glassy water
no adverse around 70 *------------------------------------------------------
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Walter Klatt · Post by **Walter Klatt** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:04 am

And just to be clear, I am not advocating cutting back the
firewall 3 inches. That's how mine is, because those were the
instructions at the time. However, I see with experience out
there, that the original firewall seems to work fine, too, with
the 0320, and if I was doing it over again now, I, too, would
seriously consider leaving it as is. At the same time, I'm OK
with mine cut back 3 inches, but probably because I haven't spent
much time in the others to know different.

However, there are a few areas that I do have stronger opinions
on with my Rebel. One is the fibreglass speed cowl. I definitely
prefer its looks over the other one, and don't have a problem
with taking it on and off frequently as some have expressed. But
I don't like the associated cooling problems if you are on
floats. I understand there is a new one out as per a recent
message, but don't know if they have fixed that. It has been my
greatest single aggravation area with my Rebel. There is a fellow
builder here locally with an Elite and the 0360 that has taken it
upon himself to produce a new cowl similar to the speed cowl, but
with larger inlets. I will be very interested to see how this
works out. He has also made a plug and is doing moulds now, so it
may be available for sale.

As for propellers, I'm OK with my Sensenich, but realize it is
not the best performer and is heavy. I still like my old Warp
Drive, and will be sticking that back on if I go on wheels. Too
bad they don't make a bigger 2 blader. Will be interested more in
how that Prince works out. I would like to avoid the complexity
and cost of a constant speed.

Also, just last night, I spoke to a local Supercub guy who uses
an 8241 Borer. He is planning some maintenance down time in a
couple of months, and after some hints, offered to let me borrow
it then. So, hopefully, he will call me when it is time. He
claims to consistently get off the water with his 150 hp 0320 in
5 seconds, which is definitely better than my Rebel. And this
plane is heavier, too. So this is the one I am most interested
in, if it works.

Looking forward to seeing your Rebel on floats. It will be great
fun, guaranteed.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Legeorgen@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 3:19 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Empty C of G-Rebel on Floats

HI Walter,

I can tell you what I don't like about the cut back
firewall is the extended
lip/shelf on the firewall to support the windshield.
Not to mention the 3" of
leg room under the panel. It gets pretty crowded down
there with hydraulic
lines, gas lines, cables etc..

My empty C&G is 10 with battery in the tail and
original firewall. I don't
have experience in flying another Rebel but I don't
find it a problem in mine.
Everything we put in the plane is aft loading including fuel.

With 250 lb. behind the seat, me and enough fuel to be
Gross weight (that's
the most aft C&G possible) I'm at the back of the
recommended envelope but
still legal. It doesn't get any better than that.

I'm keeping my eyes open for a good composite prop
with an electrical pitch
that doesn't cost 10 or 12 grand US like the
Whirlwind. In the mean time we do
all right with our Sensenich and good peace of mine, eh?

Looks like I'll be fitting the Amphibs in January now.
Remodel on the house
this month. Vacation to Calif. the week before
Christmas and then the holidays.

Bruce

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Legeorgen · Post by **Legeorgen** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:04 am

HI Walter,

I can tell you what I don't like about the cut back firewall is the extended
lip/shelf on the firewall to support the windshield. Not to mention the 3" of
leg room under the panel. It gets pretty crowded down there with hydraulic
lines, gas lines, cables etc..

My empty C&G is 10 with battery in the tail and original firewall. I don't
have experience in flying another Rebel but I don't find it a problem in mine.
Everything we put in the plane is aft loading including fuel.

With 250 lb. behind the seat, me and enough fuel to be Gross weight (that's
the most aft C&G possible) I'm at the back of the recommended envelope but
still legal. It doesn't get any better than that.

I'm keeping my eyes open for a good composite prop with an electrical pitch
that doesn't cost 10 or 12 grand US like the Whirlwind. In the mean time we do
all right with our Sensenich and good peace of mine, eh?

Looks like I'll be fitting the Amphibs in January now. Remodel on the house
this month. Vacation to Calif. the week before Christmas and then the holidays.

Bruce

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Legeorgen · Post by **Legeorgen** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:04 am

The cut back firewall is less stress on the airframe. Especially on floats as
water flying does beat the plane up.

That super cub may be heavier but it also has more wing area and 36" wing
span. That will help it get off the water quick but slow him down as well.

I too liked the Warp Drive on my Kitfox and had plans to use it on the Rebel
until the hub and blade cracking issues came up.

There are more light weight composites in development for Lycoming 320 and
360's, that will incorporate an in cockpit adjustment like what's available for
the 912's. This might be the best of both worlds.

If you get to barrow the Borer it will be interesting to see your
performance. I'm sure you will let us know.

Bruce

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