Slop in flapperons

[Legeorgen]

I want to take the slop out of my flapperon control system. Most of the
flexing is coming from the mixer behind the pilot seat not the flex cable. I have
12* of reflex but in flight it degrades to what looks to be about 4*. Any
suggestions?

Bruce



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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Some movement comes from the cable slop and handle assembly. Some comes from
the mixer bellcrank rocking on the arm if it's spaced too far off the arm
and/or the bellcrank bearing has slop in it. Another big one I find on
various Rebel's is too much clearance between the guide blocks on the end of
the arm and a sloppy pivot end. You need to make sure the arm clearance is
so tight you need to keep it lubed to allow smooth movement, as if it's
loose it also lets the arm twist which allows the bellcrank to relocate
(tip/twist) and of course this movement negates you deflection setting. Same
applies at the pivot if it is sloppy. Other things are too much delrin
bearing clearance on the torque tubes and a sloppy hanger plate pivot.
Another is simply the deflection of the torque tube horns under load, and
there's not much you can do about that one!

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <Legeorgen@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: Slop in flapperons

I want to take the slop out of my flapperon control system. Most of the
flexing is coming from the mixer behind the pilot seat not the flex cable.

I have

12* of reflex but in flight it degrades to what looks to be about 4*. Any
suggestions?

Bruce

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[Legeorgen]

Wayne,

I think I can get another 1/4" off the mixer/bell crank if I take out the
an-bolt and counter sink a flat head in its place. Most of the flex seems to be
coming from this bellcrank pivoting bolt. I have about 6 or 7 spacing washers
now.

The arm clearance is pretty good, but every thing gives a little and it all
adds up. How many degrees of loss should I expect in the control system in a
best case? I now lose two-thirds of my 12* reflex.

Bruce



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[klehman]

FWIW I believe an AN5 bolt and bellcrank bearing is used there now. Mine
is an older AN4 bolt.
Ken

Legeorgen@aol.com wrote:

Wayne,

I think I can get another 1/4" off the mixer/bell crank if I take out the
an-bolt and counter sink a flat head in its place. Most of the flex seems to be
coming from this bellcrank pivoting bolt. I have about 6 or 7 spacing washers
now.
snip

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[Legeorgen]

Thanks Ken, I don't remember the bolt size, I'll check it out.

Bruce



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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Bruce, I still lose a bit in my Rebel but it's mostly from horn deflection
since I have a full mechanical flat system that connects to the forward end
of the mixer arm (in front of the guide blocks) using a flat plate pivot
that keeps my mixer arm from rocking at all. No slop in the system to here
so no up and down slop movement either on the arm. I have everything else
pretty tight and definitely notice the induced drag difference on mine with
the flaps staying down a bit better than a roof mounted teleflex cable deal.

All you can do is do your utmost to reduce all the play/twist and unwanted
control movement and call it good enough.

If you do indeed have a 1/4" bellcrank bearing and need a 5/16 one to
replace it with, I have a few here.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <Legeorgen@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 10:41 PM
Subject: Re: Slop in flapperons

Wayne,

I think I can get another 1/4" off the mixer/bell crank if I take out the
an-bolt and counter sink a flat head in its place. Most of the flex seems

to be

coming from this bellcrank pivoting bolt. I have about 6 or 7 spacing

washers

now.

The arm clearance is pretty good, but every thing gives a little and it

all

adds up. How many degrees of loss should I expect in the control system in

a

best case? I now lose two-thirds of my 12* reflex.

Bruce

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[Walter Klatt]

I have -5 in mine, but I do recall that my kit (107R) originally
came with the -4's and then Murphy sent out an upgrade with
the -5's before I got to that part. I think I still have the -4's
around somewhere.

I checked my slop today, too, and while the bellcrank bends a
little, most of the slop comes from the teleflex cable. I don't
think I get more than about 6* reflex with mine, but with floats,
my speed is about 15 mph slower than on wheels, so it probably
doesn't bend as much as yours, Bruce.

When full flaps, though, I have the cable and mixer arm adjusted
so that the mixer arm is tight against the bottom, which then
takes up the slack in the cable. So with full flaps, I am not
getting too much slop.

I did my flaperon hanger upgrade this weekend. I added a second
channel and boxed it in with caps on the bottom both ahead and
behind the hanger. I still have the roof bracket as well. It
looks pretty solid now. I did take some pics and can post them to
the archives if anyone is interested.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 2:09 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Slop in flapperons


Just to add to the confusion I went back and looked
through the "fleet" in
the hanger.
#068R factory completed 1992 and #155R completed here
1995 (without purchase
of any extras from MAM) have -4 bearings on the
bellcrank beside the control
column and -5's on the mixer arm bellcrank.
#243R (purchased 1993/flying '95) and #097R (which is
an AULA completed in
BC 1998) have 5/16 bearings on both bellcranks.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: Slop in flapperons

Well I agree 119R from 1992 is a bit strange! IIRC

the original

bellcranks fit the -4 bearings but the upgraded

bellcranks that I

purchased (many years ago) had larger holes for the

-5 bearings. I made

new ones to fit my -4 bearings but at least I then

had the correct

dimensions and control geometry. The packing list

did show -4 bearings.

Due to the somewhat peculiar packaging, I wondered

if MAM might have got

a deal on a surplus shipment of -4's at the time.

One benefit though was that I was able to swap the

bellcrank and

teleflex mounting holes. My teleflex mounts to the

control arm forward

of bellcrank as per the new manual. That might help

reduce the cable

slop by a couple of per cent. Slightly more cable

movement with slightly

less force on it and such...

Ken

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Strange Ken!

Maybe MAM just shipped the wrong -4 instead of the

correct -5 bearing
with

your kit. Just checked #068R (FOKM) and it's

indeed 5/16 and factory
built

nov '92 and I know that #105R that I shipped to

Maui was also 5/16, as
is

George Christie's #053R from Brampton that I had

up here to rebuild the

lower cabin section etc.

You are right though. As long as it's held tight

and the bearing doesn't

rock it will make absolutely no difference and I

can't see the shear on
the

1/4" bolt being an issue.

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[Legeorgen]

Thanks Wayne,

I may have to get your 5/16" bearing for the mixer. I'll examine my control
set up again, armed with this new information and get back to the list. I
believe there is a few things I can do to take up some of the slop.

I would like to hear from other Rebels, with the factory set up, on just how
many degrees of deflection is lost in cruise. This will give me something to
compare to. Thanks

Bruce



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[klehman]

119R is 1/4" but you know it really doesn't look like it would make a
significant difference since the bolt is tightened up against the
washers. I decided not to change mine but of course it hasn't flown yet
either and you guys have changed my mind for me more than once...
Ken

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Mine's #243R and it came with a 5/16th bearing. I also know 230R had a 5/16
and come to think of it Howard's 155R is 5/16. Heck I don't think I've seen
a 1/4" bearing even in 086R.

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Strange Ken!

Maybe MAM just shipped the wrong -4 instead of the correct -5 bearing with
your kit. Just checked #068R (FOKM) and it's indeed 5/16 and factory built
nov '92 and I know that #105R that I shipped to Maui was also 5/16, as is
George Christie's #053R from Brampton that I had up here to rebuild the
lower cabin section etc.

You are right though. As long as it's held tight and the bearing doesn't
rock it will make absolutely no difference and I can't see the shear on the
1/4" bolt being an issue.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: Slop in flapperons

119R is 1/4" but you know it really doesn't look like it would make a
significant difference since the bolt is tightened up against the
washers. I decided not to change mine but of course it hasn't flown yet
either and you guys have changed my mind for me more than once...
Ken

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Mine's #243R and it came with a 5/16th bearing. I also know 230R had a

5/16

and come to think of it Howard's 155R is 5/16. Heck I don't think I've

seen

a 1/4" bearing even in 086R.

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[klehman]

Well I agree 119R from 1992 is a bit strange! IIRC the original
bellcranks fit the -4 bearings but the upgraded bellcranks that I
purchased (many years ago) had larger holes for the -5 bearings. I made
new ones to fit my -4 bearings but at least I then had the correct
dimensions and control geometry. The packing list did show -4 bearings.
Due to the somewhat peculiar packaging, I wondered if MAM might have got
a deal on a surplus shipment of -4's at the time.

One benefit though was that I was able to swap the bellcrank and
teleflex mounting holes. My teleflex mounts to the control arm forward
of bellcrank as per the new manual. That might help reduce the cable
slop by a couple of per cent. Slightly more cable movement with slightly
less force on it and such...

Ken

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Strange Ken!

Maybe MAM just shipped the wrong -4 instead of the correct -5 bearing with
your kit. Just checked #068R (FOKM) and it's indeed 5/16 and factory built
nov '92 and I know that #105R that I shipped to Maui was also 5/16, as is
George Christie's #053R from Brampton that I had up here to rebuild the
lower cabin section etc.

You are right though. As long as it's held tight and the bearing doesn't
rock it will make absolutely no difference and I can't see the shear on the
1/4" bolt being an issue.

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Just to add to the confusion I went back and looked through the "fleet" in
the hanger.
#068R factory completed 1992 and #155R completed here 1995 (without purchase
of any extras from MAM) have -4 bearings on the bellcrank beside the control
column and -5's on the mixer arm bellcrank.
#243R (purchased 1993/flying '95) and #097R (which is an AULA completed in
BC 1998) have 5/16 bearings on both bellcranks.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: Slop in flapperons

Well I agree 119R from 1992 is a bit strange! IIRC the original
bellcranks fit the -4 bearings but the upgraded bellcranks that I
purchased (many years ago) had larger holes for the -5 bearings. I made
new ones to fit my -4 bearings but at least I then had the correct
dimensions and control geometry. The packing list did show -4 bearings.
Due to the somewhat peculiar packaging, I wondered if MAM might have got
a deal on a surplus shipment of -4's at the time.

One benefit though was that I was able to swap the bellcrank and
teleflex mounting holes. My teleflex mounts to the control arm forward
of bellcrank as per the new manual. That might help reduce the cable
slop by a couple of per cent. Slightly more cable movement with slightly
less force on it and such...

Ken

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Strange Ken!

Maybe MAM just shipped the wrong -4 instead of the correct -5 bearing

with

your kit. Just checked #068R (FOKM) and it's indeed 5/16 and factory

built

nov '92 and I know that #105R that I shipped to Maui was also 5/16, as

is

George Christie's #053R from Brampton that I had up here to rebuild the
lower cabin section etc.

You are right though. As long as it's held tight and the bearing doesn't
rock it will make absolutely no difference and I can't see the shear on

the

1/4" bolt being an issue.

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[Legeorgen]

Drew,

Does your Rebel keep the 10 to 12* deflection in flight?

Bruce



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[Legeorgen]

Thanks Rick and Walter for the feed back on the flap deflection. Keep us up
to date on the Van's electric actuator, Rick.

Bruce



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[Legeorgen]

Drew,

I can tell you that 1 1/2" of space visible between trailing edges is about 4
or 5*. That's slightly more than what I see on mine (about an 1 1/4") and
I've already measured the angle.

Bruce



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