Flaperon Control Roof Hanger on Rebel

[rognal]

I used two ST-28 channels rather that the ST-31. For the 'L' brackets I used
leftover pieces of the FUS-35 angle (This is angle that was installed along
the top of the FUS-24). The FUS-35 is .062 - .063 and I installed two of
them, back to back, on each bulkhead. That way the flange of the 'L' bracket
that the ST-28 will mount to is now approx .125" thick. The left ST-28
channel was installed on the left side (outside) of the 'L' bracket flanges,
the right ST-28 was installed on the right side of the 'L' bracket flanges.
That gave me the correct spacing between the channels for the .125 thick
hanger bracket.

I haven't finished the work in this area as I still have not figured out how
to do a clean and neat installation of the gussets that my manual calls out
for, to tie the hanger channels to the rear carrythrough bulkhead. Brian at
MAM told me the gussets weren't "super critical". And it appears they were
not part of previous installs on earlier Rebels. Also it seems to me that any
wind gust forces on the flaperons would transfer to the hanger bracket
channels in a up/down rotation, and gussets would do little to change that.
But then I have no more education than High School math to draw upon for that
conclusion.

I am considering installing the bracket that ties into the roof panel, or
riveting a piece of FUS-65 full length to the inside of one of the channels,
then rivet the top flange to the roof panel, as someone has already suggested.

IMO, I don't think MAM gave much thought to this upgrade in respect to giving
the new/inexperienced builder (me) adequate instructions, diagrams, photos,
etc. I have found this to be a common problem for me throughout the building
process, and while I am already considering building another aircraft, it
won't be a Murphy product specifically for that reason. I really like the
looks of Bob Barrows 2 place tandem prototype 'BearHawk Patrol'...

Anyway, that's my 2.

Roger Hoffman #687R
Eugene, OR USA!


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[Walter Klatt]

Wayne, you mention here that you have seen quite a few
Rebels with a problem in this area. Is the weak spot
the single ST31 channel that buckles. And at what spot
does it buckle? What happens to the roof bracket? How
about the ends of the channel where they are attached
to the bulkheads. Is that sufficient?

I am asking because I have seen quite a few different
fixes described here that might be "overkill", too. On
the other hand, in this post below, you suggest adding
a second channel inside the existing one.

When I was looking through my scraps, I found a piece
of ST28 that would actually fit snugly inside an ST31.
So was wondering if adding a piece of ST28 about 15
inches long inside the existing ST31 that is 20 inches
long would be adequate. I would leave the existing L
bracket attachments of the ST31 to the bulkheads as is.
Or would that put too much stress at these end points?

This would certainly be a quick easy fix for me, but
would it be too much on the underkill side?

All opinions welcome.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 6:15 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Flaperon Control Roof Hanger on Rebel


I've been staying quiet on this thread, as
we've been here before, but sorry
Sean the single ST-31 (.020) channel and
.032 bracket to the roof does not
"work just fine" for the torque tube hanger
bracket. You haven't looked too
hard....... if you haven't seen this area to
be a problem. I have fixed at
least 7 (possibly more) of these hanger
brackets, that buckle from leaving
aileron/flaperons without gust locks or even
just having a tail wind rip the
stick out of our hands.

At minimum this channel needs to be .032 and
not .020 and it's very easy to
add a layer of material to it by bending up
a channel to fit inside the
existing one if you are already built to
this stage or flying. Better now
than when you go to leave a distant flyin
and find things aren't where they
used to be on the cabin roof!

Cheers,
Wayne O'Shea

----- Original Message -----
From: <rebel@dcsol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 8:17 AM
Subject: Re: Flaperon Control Roof Hanger on Rebel

If it helps clear up how to put the hanger

on the roof don't follow the

pictures on the CD that Murphy sends as

these are pic's from the
prototype.

If anyone has the misfortune of having a

very old Elite manual it shows
two

for and aft channels made of st-31. the

new book has the single st31 with

angle clips for and aft to tie it to the

bulheads and a .032 bracket that

ties it to the roof and it works just

fine. The control chapter is on

Murphy's web site for down load. Unless

you have a problem leave it per
the

book I have never seen a problem in this

area that would require a beef up

Sean White
Kitplane solutions Inc.

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[Walter Klatt]

Thanks, Wayne, I think you've given me what I need to
know.

I have to say, though, I am having trouble imagining
enough tail wind to get the stick ripped out of your
hand. BobP has said that, too. I have certainly felt
tugs from time to time, but nothing that I couldn't
hang on to easily. And water taxiing, I've been in
enough wind to worry mostly about getting flipped over
when turning upwind, but again, don't remember problems
with hanging on to the stick. I usually keep it full
back when water taxiing, so my legs would be helping as
well. I can see on land where that would be different
with the taildragger, and maybe when stick forward,
it's harder to hang on to. Or maybe you guys just fly
in stronger winds than I do. Everything is relative...

Ever heard of this area bending in flight? One of the
locals here claims that happened to him in severe
turbulence. I find that hard to believe too, and think
it was probably more likely due to control slapping on
the ground. But if true, that would be a greater
concern to me.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2003 1:16 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Flaperon Control Roof Hanger on Rebel


What happens is a good gust makes the
controls go full deflection and when
things bottom out the hanger bracket tries
to rotate (and can thanks to the
mixer arm lifting or dropping due to slop in
the system) and this usually
buckles the ST-31 channel immediately in
front or right behind the hanger
plate. I have never seen the end angle
brackets get damaged through all of
this. Generally I have put the extra channel
inside the existing if it
hasn't been damaged or upgraded to a single
.032 channel if it is already
too late. I also use bolts to secure the
hanger assembly so it can be easily
taken apart when ever needed and this also
lets you easily drop the torque
tube assembly for removal if required as well.

If you can get that ST-28 installed right to
the back of the existing
channel and tied into the existing angle
bracket by back drilling the rivet
holes, then bolt through the hanger plate
and bracket to the roof you would
probably be just fine (although it would be
better if you are going to do
the work to get a piece that will go full
length!). Of course a few rivets
to tie the two channels together would be
required as well. Another option
would be to even just add two pieces of
angle, full length, to the channel
to reinforce the flanges. If the flanges
can't give... then the channel
can't buckle! Other's have mentioned using a
roof rib (like goes down the
center at the flap handle) and this works
VERY well, as well. Also, I
believe it was Al H. that mention you have
to cut the lower flange off to
use it (and he's correct) and then rivet it
to the flat side of the ST-28
channel. This will really stop the channel
from trying to rotate as
everything will be tied to the cabin roof
for the full length of the
channel.

I've gone through my pictures and don't see
a good detailed one to post.
Will take a picture of what's in FOKM when I
get a minute and post it. It's
the channel/roof rib/bracket and hanger
combo and has stood up very well. I
have had the stick ripped out of my hand at
least 4 times, when water taxing
with a tailwind and the flaperons down,
without damage.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2003 3:20 PM
Subject: RE: Flaperon Control Roof Hanger on Rebel

Wayne, you mention here that you have seen

quite a few

Rebels with a problem in this area. Is the

weak spot

the single ST31 channel that buckles. And

at what spot

does it buckle? What happens to the roof

bracket? How

about the ends of the channel where they

are attached

to the bulkheads. Is that sufficient?

I am asking because I have seen quite a

few different

fixes described here that might be

"overkill", too. On

the other hand, in this post below, you

suggest adding

a second channel inside the existing one.

When I was looking through my scraps, I

found a piece

of ST28 that would actually fit snugly

inside an ST31.

So was wondering if adding a piece of ST28 about 15
inches long inside the existing ST31 that

is 20 inches

long would be adequate. I would leave the

existing L

bracket attachments of the ST31 to the

bulkheads as is.

Or would that put too much stress at these

end points?

This would certainly be a quick easy fix

for me, but

would it be too much on the underkill side?

All opinions welcome.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 6:15 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Flaperon Control Roof

Hanger on Rebel

I've been staying quiet on this thread, as
we've been here before, but sorry
Sean the single ST-31 (.020) channel and
.032 bracket to the roof does not
"work just fine" for the torque tube hanger
bracket. You haven't looked too
hard....... if you haven't seen this area to
be a problem. I have fixed at
least 7 (possibly more) of these hanger
brackets, that buckle from leaving
aileron/flaperons without gust locks or even
just having a tail wind rip the
stick out of our hands.

At minimum this channel needs to be .032 and
not .020 and it's very easy to
add a layer of material to it by bending up
a channel to fit inside the
existing one if you are already built to
this stage or flying. Better now
than when you go to leave a distant flyin
and find things aren't where they
used to be on the cabin roof!

Cheers,
Wayne O'Shea

----- Original Message -----
From: <rebel@dcsol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 8:17 AM
Subject: Re: Flaperon Control Roof

Hanger on Rebel

on the roof don't follow the these are pic's from the
prototype. very old Elite manual it shows
two new book has the single st31 with bulheads and a .032 bracket that fine. The control chapter is on you have a problem leave it per
the area that would require a beef up

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[yeom]

Just thought I would add my 2c worth here, I agree with Wayne on this, I
have repaired mine twice in this hangar bracket area due to inadvertent wind
gusts.
With the aircraft out of the air at the moment I will be taking the
opportunity to strengthen the area.

Cheers

Alister



----- Original Message -----
From: Wayne G. O'Shea <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 2:15 AM
Subject: Re: Flaperon Control Roof Hanger on Rebel

I've been staying quiet on this thread, as we've been here before, but

sorry

Sean the single ST-31 (.020) channel and .032 bracket to the roof does not
"work just fine" for the torque tube hanger bracket. You haven't looked

too

hard....... if you haven't seen this area to be a problem. I have fixed at
least 7 (possibly more) of these hanger brackets, that buckle from leaving
aileron/flaperons without gust locks or even just having a tail wind rip

the

stick out of our hands.

At minimum this channel needs to be .032 and not .020 and it's very easy

to

add a layer of material to it by bending up a channel to fit inside the
existing one if you are already built to this stage or flying. Better now
than when you go to leave a distant flyin and find things aren't where

they

used to be on the cabin roof!

Cheers,
Wayne O'Shea

----- Original Message -----
From: <rebel@dcsol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 8:17 AM
Subject: Re: Flaperon Control Roof Hanger on Rebel

If it helps clear up how to put the hanger on the roof don't follow the
pictures on the CD that Murphy sends as these are pic's from the

prototype.

If anyone has the misfortune of having a very old Elite manual it shows

two

for and aft channels made of st-31. the new book has the single st31

with

angle clips for and aft to tie it to the bulheads and a .032 bracket

that

ties it to the roof and it works just fine. The control chapter is on
Murphy's web site for down load. Unless you have a problem leave it per

the

book I have never seen a problem in this area that would require a beef

up

Sean White
Kitplane solutions Inc.

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

What happens is a good gust makes the controls go full deflection and when
things bottom out the hanger bracket tries to rotate (and can thanks to the
mixer arm lifting or dropping due to slop in the system) and this usually
buckles the ST-31 channel immediately in front or right behind the hanger
plate. I have never seen the end angle brackets get damaged through all of
this. Generally I have put the extra channel inside the existing if it
hasn't been damaged or upgraded to a single .032 channel if it is already
too late. I also use bolts to secure the hanger assembly so it can be easily
taken apart when ever needed and this also lets you easily drop the torque
tube assembly for removal if required as well.

If you can get that ST-28 installed right to the back of the existing
channel and tied into the existing angle bracket by back drilling the rivet
holes, then bolt through the hanger plate and bracket to the roof you would
probably be just fine (although it would be better if you are going to do
the work to get a piece that will go full length!). Of course a few rivets
to tie the two channels together would be required as well. Another option
would be to even just add two pieces of angle, full length, to the channel
to reinforce the flanges. If the flanges can't give... then the channel
can't buckle! Other's have mentioned using a roof rib (like goes down the
center at the flap handle) and this works VERY well, as well. Also, I
believe it was Al H. that mention you have to cut the lower flange off to
use it (and he's correct) and then rivet it to the flat side of the ST-28
channel. This will really stop the channel from trying to rotate as
everything will be tied to the cabin roof for the full length of the
channel.

I've gone through my pictures and don't see a good detailed one to post.
Will take a picture of what's in FOKM when I get a minute and post it. It's
the channel/roof rib/bracket and hanger combo and has stood up very well. I
have had the stick ripped out of my hand at least 4 times, when water taxing
with a tailwind and the flaperons down, without damage.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2003 3:20 PM
Subject: RE: Flaperon Control Roof Hanger on Rebel

Wayne, you mention here that you have seen quite a few
Rebels with a problem in this area. Is the weak spot
the single ST31 channel that buckles. And at what spot
does it buckle? What happens to the roof bracket? How
about the ends of the channel where they are attached
to the bulkheads. Is that sufficient?

I am asking because I have seen quite a few different
fixes described here that might be "overkill", too. On
the other hand, in this post below, you suggest adding
a second channel inside the existing one.

When I was looking through my scraps, I found a piece
of ST28 that would actually fit snugly inside an ST31.
So was wondering if adding a piece of ST28 about 15
inches long inside the existing ST31 that is 20 inches
long would be adequate. I would leave the existing L
bracket attachments of the ST31 to the bulkheads as is.
Or would that put too much stress at these end points?

This would certainly be a quick easy fix for me, but
would it be too much on the underkill side?

All opinions welcome.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 6:15 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Flaperon Control Roof Hanger on Rebel


I've been staying quiet on this thread, as
we've been here before, but sorry
Sean the single ST-31 (.020) channel and
.032 bracket to the roof does not
"work just fine" for the torque tube hanger
bracket. You haven't looked too
hard....... if you haven't seen this area to
be a problem. I have fixed at
least 7 (possibly more) of these hanger
brackets, that buckle from leaving
aileron/flaperons without gust locks or even
just having a tail wind rip the
stick out of our hands.

At minimum this channel needs to be .032 and
not .020 and it's very easy to
add a layer of material to it by bending up
a channel to fit inside the
existing one if you are already built to
this stage or flying. Better now
than when you go to leave a distant flyin
and find things aren't where they
used to be on the cabin roof!

Cheers,
Wayne O'Shea

----- Original Message -----
From: <rebel@dcsol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 8:17 AM
Subject: Re: Flaperon Control Roof Hanger on Rebel

If it helps clear up how to put the hanger

on the roof don't follow the

pictures on the CD that Murphy sends as

these are pic's from the
prototype.

If anyone has the misfortune of having a

very old Elite manual it shows
two

for and aft channels made of st-31. the

new book has the single st31 with

angle clips for and aft to tie it to the

bulheads and a .032 bracket that

ties it to the roof and it works just

fine. The control chapter is on

Murphy's web site for down load. Unless

you have a problem leave it per
the

book I have never seen a problem in this

area that would require a beef up

Sean White
Kitplane solutions Inc.

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Maybe Bob and I have been flying these things long enough now that we don't
hold on as tight anymore )) !!!!

Guess it could give in, in flight, when doing a tail slide ! But then
again I guess if you hit an air pocket, that you dropped in quickly, that
the sudden up force on the flaperons could cause the same thing to happen,
but much less likely than the wind playing havok with things on the ground.

Wayne


----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2003 5:07 PM
Subject: RE: Flaperon Control Roof Hanger on Rebel

Thanks, Wayne, I think you've given me what I need to
know.

I have to say, though, I am having trouble imagining
enough tail wind to get the stick ripped out of your
hand. BobP has said that, too. I have certainly felt
tugs from time to time, but nothing that I couldn't
hang on to easily. And water taxiing, I've been in
enough wind to worry mostly about getting flipped over
when turning upwind, but again, don't remember problems
with hanging on to the stick. I usually keep it full
back when water taxiing, so my legs would be helping as
well. I can see on land where that would be different
with the taildragger, and maybe when stick forward,
it's harder to hang on to. Or maybe you guys just fly
in stronger winds than I do. Everything is relative...

Ever heard of this area bending in flight? One of the
locals here claims that happened to him in severe
turbulence. I find that hard to believe too, and think
it was probably more likely due to control slapping on
the ground. But if true, that would be a greater
concern to me.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2003 1:16 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Flaperon Control Roof Hanger on Rebel


What happens is a good gust makes the
controls go full deflection and when
things bottom out the hanger bracket tries
to rotate (and can thanks to the
mixer arm lifting or dropping due to slop in
the system) and this usually
buckles the ST-31 channel immediately in
front or right behind the hanger
plate. I have never seen the end angle
brackets get damaged through all of
this. Generally I have put the extra channel
inside the existing if it
hasn't been damaged or upgraded to a single
.032 channel if it is already
too late. I also use bolts to secure the
hanger assembly so it can be easily
taken apart when ever needed and this also
lets you easily drop the torque
tube assembly for removal if required as well.

If you can get that ST-28 installed right to
the back of the existing
channel and tied into the existing angle
bracket by back drilling the rivet
holes, then bolt through the hanger plate
and bracket to the roof you would
probably be just fine (although it would be
better if you are going to do
the work to get a piece that will go full
length!). Of course a few rivets
to tie the two channels together would be
required as well. Another option
would be to even just add two pieces of
angle, full length, to the channel
to reinforce the flanges. If the flanges
can't give... then the channel
can't buckle! Other's have mentioned using a
roof rib (like goes down the
center at the flap handle) and this works
VERY well, as well. Also, I
believe it was Al H. that mention you have
to cut the lower flange off to
use it (and he's correct) and then rivet it
to the flat side of the ST-28
channel. This will really stop the channel
from trying to rotate as
everything will be tied to the cabin roof
for the full length of the
channel.

I've gone through my pictures and don't see
a good detailed one to post.
Will take a picture of what's in FOKM when I
get a minute and post it. It's
the channel/roof rib/bracket and hanger
combo and has stood up very well. I
have had the stick ripped out of my hand at
least 4 times, when water taxing
with a tailwind and the flaperons down,
without damage.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2003 3:20 PM
Subject: RE: Flaperon Control Roof Hanger on Rebel

Wayne, you mention here that you have seen

quite a few

Rebels with a problem in this area. Is the

weak spot

the single ST31 channel that buckles. And

at what spot

does it buckle? What happens to the roof

bracket? How

about the ends of the channel where they

are attached

to the bulkheads. Is that sufficient?

I am asking because I have seen quite a

few different

fixes described here that might be

"overkill", too. On

the other hand, in this post below, you

suggest adding

a second channel inside the existing one.

When I was looking through my scraps, I

found a piece

of ST28 that would actually fit snugly

inside an ST31.

So was wondering if adding a piece of ST28 about 15
inches long inside the existing ST31 that

is 20 inches

long would be adequate. I would leave the

existing L

bracket attachments of the ST31 to the

bulkheads as is.

Or would that put too much stress at these

end points?

This would certainly be a quick easy fix

for me, but

would it be too much on the underkill side?

All opinions welcome.

Walter

Hanger on Rebel

Hanger on Rebel

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[Legeorgen]

Roger,

My experience after two kits is, unfortunately, you will probably fine that
other kit manufacturers are not any better with their manuals and or even worse
when you consider tech support and company stability and longevity.

There may be a few exceptions like Van's which seem to be the Cadallac of kit
planes. This industry operates on a shoe string. Even companies like Skystar
(Kitfox) and Lancair are struggling to keep their doors open.

MAM will be around because they capture new markets with new aircraft like
the Moose. Vans sets the pace in that category. This is what keeps them in the
black and allows them to stay in business to support their earlier and older
kits.


We kit builders are not a market large enough for big name
companies/bussinesses to invest lots of capital for R&D along with massive support and flaw less
products with near perfect manuals. So the risk in doing business with kits
manufacturers is higher. Buyer be ware! That's the nature of experimentals.

Bruce 357R



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