Engines - more ...

[Mike Davis]

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From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Engines - more ...
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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:55:22 -0400


Terry,

The Subaru props can swing BOTH ways !! :-) ;-) Depends on whether
you are using a belt or gear re-drive, and whose configuration ....
This is one of many reasons why some Rebel builders have chosen to position
their vertical fins in the CENTER, rather than offset either way !

There are several good Subaru conversions out there - only one you
REALLY should AVOID is NSI !! Nice displays - hardly any deliveries -
DO <NOT> send them a deposit !!!

Some of the good guys :

Our own Dave Bangle (on this list) at : http://www.subielyc.com/

and, in Canada, Crossflow Aero, at : www.crossflow.com

Also, have heard good things about Stratus (sorry, no address), although
I believe they mainly do the smaller EA-81 Subarus. Another name you see
a lot is Eggenfellner Advanced Aircraft Engines - anybody got any feedback
on them ???

A firewall-forward package is appealing, BUT they can be more expensive
than you might expect ! These folks have done a LOT of research & testing,
and really put together a complete package, and have to make a living !!
(and they don't sell thousands of these engines a year ! :-) )

I'm sure there is enough expertise here to guide you through the
selection of parts ( I'm pretty sure Dave will sell mounts, etc. ...)
and integration, if you're inclined that way. I stick by my statement that
you should figure on most of an extra year of changes & adjustments &
possible parts replacements, if you go the do-it-yourself route ! I DO
hope that this will change as the group gathers experience, but EVERYBODY
I know who has done this has spent a LOT of extra time changing radiators,
cowling, etc... Of course, several builders with Lycosauruses have ALSO
spent extra time with cowling, vents, and oil coolers .... And I still
believe that, like the Rebel, the Subaru conversions are " Worth the effort"
!!
They are certainly a valid alternative - as is my favorite, the Rotax 912-S,
for real flying economy !!

There are several Crossflow conversions flying up here - flew one
about 4 years ago - very nice. Dave Bangle likely has more hours of
actually FLYING a Subaru Rebel than ANYBODY ! I'm sure he will chime in
with recommendations ....

Like it or not, more Subarus are appearing at airports everywhere !

.....bobp

--------------------------------orig.------------------------------------
At 05:00 PM 7/13/99 -0400, you wrote:

The elevator pulley brackets are mounted on bulkhead "d" all the extra
channels are used by some for extra strength in the tailcone.
I would like to get some opinions on engines for the Rebel ( conventional
gear, firewall forward packages if possible ). Who sells Subaru conversions
and which are found to be the best? Does the Subaru prop swing clockwise

or

counterclockwise? If not the Subaru then where is the best place to find
used/rebuilt aircraft engines?
Terry Thomason
Rebel #046
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Klimas <drk@cts.com>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Sunday, July 11, 1999 7:43 PM
Subject: Re: I'm totally lost

Joel,

(1)
Bulkhead 'D' is where I've located mine, from this location the cables

meet

up with the elevator control arms more-or-less at a 90 degree angle and

the

angle is not as severe as it would be from bulkhead 'E'.

(2)
My floor ends at bulkhead 'D'

(3)
I had the same questions, here is the reply I received from MurTech:

Question
PG 13-39: Step ?: (Figure 32?)
What is the proper location/size for the elevator cable pass-thru hole in
FUS-36/FUS-43?

ANS: We found that the best location for this hole is about 1 inch above
the flat portion of the FUS-43, centred between the left and right edge.
Cut a 2 in. x 0.5 in. oblong hole. Try this out by first by drawing this

on

the part, then lining up the cable to to see where it will travel. It

might

be trial and error, but once you have the best approx location, then cut

the

hole, try out the cable travel, and adjust to suit. Just make sure you

stay

within 2*dia of the hole edge distance.

Dave & Bert Klimas
Rebel #R472
Ramona, CA

PS Nice photos of the light installation.

Help! I absolutely cannot figure this out. The manual is contradicting
and vague. The answer is not here - hopefully it's out there somewhere.

I

have two questions.

1 - Do the elevator pulley brackets attach to bulkhead 'D' or bulkhead

'E'?

2 - Does the floor end at bulkhead 'D' or bulkhead 'E'?

Bulkhead 'E' is the last 4 piece bulkhead - just in front of the one

piece

one. The manual says attach the pulleys to 'D' but the picture looks

more

like 'E'. The floor they sent me only reaches 'D', but the exploded fuse
drawing at the begining of the section shows flooring back to 'E'. The
manual shows floor channels back to 'E'. In the controls section they

say

install cable guides all the way to the rear of the floor and the figure
shows the last ones at 'E' and no mention of any pulleys at all. I have

a

picture I took at OSH down the factory Rebels tailcone, it's kinda dark

but

I think the pulleys are on 'D' - and the cable runs up through a hole in

the

one piece bulkhead ABOVE the horizontal bulkhead. - No where in the

manual

can I find where it says to cut this hole. Can someone give me a clue?

thank you very much!

Joel
Rebel #416

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[Mike Davis]

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Bob Patterson wrote:

Terry,

The Subaru props can swing BOTH ways !! :-) ;-) Depends on whether
you are using a belt or gear re-drive, and whose configuration ....
This is one of many reasons why some Rebel builders have chosen to

position

their vertical fins in the CENTER, rather than offset either way !

There are several good Subaru conversions out there - only one you
REALLY should AVOID is NSI !! Nice displays - hardly any deliveries -
DO <NOT> send them a deposit !!!

Some of the good guys :

Our own Dave Bangle (on this list) at : http://www.subielyc.com/

and, in Canada, Crossflow Aero, at : www.crossflow.com

Also, have heard good things about Stratus (sorry, no address), although
I believe they mainly do the smaller EA-81 Subarus. Another name you see
a lot is Eggenfellner Advanced Aircraft Engines - anybody got any feedback
on them ???

A firewall-forward package is appealing, BUT they can be more

expensive

than you might expect ! These folks have done a LOT of research & testing,
and really put together a complete package, and have to make a living !!
(and they don't sell thousands of these engines a year ! :-) )

I'm sure there is enough expertise here to guide you through the
selection of parts ( I'm pretty sure Dave will sell mounts, etc. ...)
and integration, if you're inclined that way. I stick by my statement that
you should figure on most of an extra year of changes & adjustments &
possible parts replacements, if you go the do-it-yourself route ! I DO
hope that this will change as the group gathers experience, but EVERYBODY
I know who has done this has spent a LOT of extra time changing radiators,
cowling, etc... Of course, several builders with Lycosauruses have ALSO
spent extra time with cowling, vents, and oil coolers .... And I still
believe that, like the Rebel, the Subaru conversions are " Worth the

effort" !!

They are certainly a valid alternative - as is my favorite, the Rotax

912-S,

for real flying economy !!

There are several Crossflow conversions flying up here - flew one
about 4 years ago - very nice. Dave Bangle likely has more hours of
actually FLYING a Subaru Rebel than ANYBODY ! I'm sure he will chime in
with recommendations ....

Like it or not, more Subarus are appearing at airports everywhere !

.....bobp

I don't want this to sound like a commercial cause it's not.

I would caution against picking any vendor who does not have a flying
model of their own that they have done the work and test flying on.

Crossflow- While they have some engines flying, most are the old Formula
power engines that they changed ignition and fuel systems on. Rick
Abbots for instance I did the installation complete, and Crossflow took
another few thousand to re-ignition and fuel system. I was still
learning back then and found out that most of the Formula Power problems
were a matter of changing a 5.00 jet. Glass Goose has spent a large sum
of money with Crossflow and that engine is sitting in the back of the
hanger as it doesn't work reliably. I was at Arlington this weekend and
the Zenith factory took the Crossflow engine off their airplane as it
couldn't be made to work. Don't know why, they(Crossflow) did the
installation themselves. I'm just repeating what was told to me
directly so don't think I am bashing the competition, I'm just asking
caution. Ask to fly in their factory demonstrator.

Stratus, a good company and under new ownership. The guy who used to
build engines for NSI bought the company. He doesn't fly but the hard
work has been done. They don't offer cooling solutions or other common
problem solutions but they don't promise the moon either. I have flown
behind one and it works good. Their drive is quite heavy for the Rebel
though. About 35# more than ours. Close to 80#. Offset is also larger
leaving not very much room under the engine for cooling. They have
nothing flying now as the factory demonstrator seized last year.
Problem has been located and solved though. Don't fret about the NSI
connection. This guy has built more engines than all the rest of us
combined and is really a nice guy.

Eggenfeller- This is a stock setup and I have reports that the cooling
doesn't work. Low power and to hot. They have been around a long time
though and have paid their dues. Don't know if they fly. I don't think
so but could be wrong. I don't like much of their stuff, but you
probably didn't really think I would now did you.

As far as NSI goes. Don't send a check before delivery and be prepared
for it not to work real good. I had lots of problems with mine. That
is what I started with. The drives have been a real problem in terms of
longevity. They are certainly beautiful, but beware.

So ends my soapbox on the competition. Hope it doesn't sound to
tainted. I am just so very pleased with our system......finally.
--
Dave Bangle http://www.subielyc.com/

[Mike Davis]

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Egenfeldner does fly. He flew his homebuilt ( I believe a Longeeze )with
one of his
early Legacy conversions on it, to Oshkosh in 1996 or 97. I bought his
redrive,
exhaust and other components at that time. Shortly thereafter, he went from
a belt
drive, which I have, to a gear drive. I have never put my engine together,
so I can
not attest to how well his products work. However, he does fly what he
sells.

jar

subersys wrote:

Bob Patterson wrote:

Terry,

The Subaru props can swing BOTH ways !! :-) ;-) Depends on

whether

you are using a belt or gear re-drive, and whose configuration ....
This is one of many reasons why some Rebel builders have chosen to

position

their vertical fins in the CENTER, rather than offset either way !

There are several good Subaru conversions out there - only one you
REALLY should AVOID is NSI !! Nice displays - hardly any deliveries -
DO <NOT> send them a deposit !!!

Some of the good guys :

Our own Dave Bangle (on this list) at : http://www.subielyc.com/

and, in Canada, Crossflow Aero, at : www.crossflow.com

Also, have heard good things about Stratus (sorry, no address),

although

I believe they mainly do the smaller EA-81 Subarus. Another name you see
a lot is Eggenfellner Advanced Aircraft Engines - anybody got any

feedback

on them ???

A firewall-forward package is appealing, BUT they can be more

expensive

than you might expect ! These folks have done a LOT of research &

testing,

and really put together a complete package, and have to make a living !!
(and they don't sell thousands of these engines a year ! :-) )

I'm sure there is enough expertise here to guide you through the
selection of parts ( I'm pretty sure Dave will sell mounts, etc. ...)
and integration, if you're inclined that way. I stick by my statement

that

you should figure on most of an extra year of changes & adjustments &
possible parts replacements, if you go the do-it-yourself route ! I DO
hope that this will change as the group gathers experience, but

EVERYBODY

I know who has done this has spent a LOT of extra time changing

radiators,

cowling, etc... Of course, several builders with Lycosauruses have ALSO
spent extra time with cowling, vents, and oil coolers .... And I still
believe that, like the Rebel, the Subaru conversions are " Worth the

effort" !!

They are certainly a valid alternative - as is my favorite, the Rotax

912-S,

for real flying economy !!

There are several Crossflow conversions flying up here - flew one
about 4 years ago - very nice. Dave Bangle likely has more hours of
actually FLYING a Subaru Rebel than ANYBODY ! I'm sure he will chime in
with recommendations ....

Like it or not, more Subarus are appearing at airports everywhere !

.....bobp

I don't want this to sound like a commercial cause it's not.

I would caution against picking any vendor who does not have a flying
model of their own that they have done the work and test flying on.

Crossflow- While they have some engines flying, most are the old Formula
power engines that they changed ignition and fuel systems on. Rick
Abbots for instance I did the installation complete, and Crossflow took
another few thousand to re-ignition and fuel system. I was still
learning back then and found out that most of the Formula Power problems
were a matter of changing a 5.00 jet. Glass Goose has spent a large sum
of money with Crossflow and that engine is sitting in the back of the
hanger as it doesn't work reliably. I was at Arlington this weekend and
the Zenith factory took the Crossflow engine off their airplane as it
couldn't be made to work. Don't know why, they(Crossflow) did the
installation themselves. I'm just repeating what was told to me
directly so don't think I am bashing the competition, I'm just asking
caution. Ask to fly in their factory demonstrator.

Stratus, a good company and under new ownership. The guy who used to
build engines for NSI bought the company. He doesn't fly but the hard
work has been done. They don't offer cooling solutions or other common
problem solutions but they don't promise the moon either. I have flown
behind one and it works good. Their drive is quite heavy for the Rebel
though. About 35# more than ours. Close to 80#. Offset is also larger
leaving not very much room under the engine for cooling. They have
nothing flying now as the factory demonstrator seized last year.
Problem has been located and solved though. Don't fret about the NSI
connection. This guy has built more engines than all the rest of us
combined and is really a nice guy.

Eggenfeller- This is a stock setup and I have reports that the cooling
doesn't work. Low power and to hot. They have been around a long time
though and have paid their dues. Don't know if they fly. I don't think
so but could be wrong. I don't like much of their stuff, but you
probably didn't really think I would now did you.

As far as NSI goes. Don't send a check before delivery and be prepared
for it not to work real good. I had lots of problems with mine. That
is what I started with. The drives have been a real problem in terms of
longevity. They are certainly beautiful, but beware.

So ends my soapbox on the competition. Hope it doesn't sound to
tainted. I am just so very pleased with our system......finally.
--
Dave Bangle http://www.subielyc.com/
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between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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[Mike Davis]

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel Builders List)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: Engines - more ...
Message-Id: <E114xws-0006AA-00@mail4.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:42:06 -0400


Thanks, Dave !!! This is exactly the kind of straight-forward, honest
commentary we all need ! It doesn't sound like a commercial at all.

If we could collect this kind of feedback from everyone about all of
the combinations, it would be a lot easier to make choices. Like you, I
have had 'feelings' about some products, but hesitate to say more than
what I know, or have heard from reliable sources.... I guess it all comes
down to gathering facts and opinions, and forming your own 'opinion' -
that's when the buying decision comes !

We certainly need more real flight reports on different engine/prop
combinations - as you suggest: static rpms at full throttle, etc...

.....bobp

------------------------------orig.-----------------------------------------
At 05:47 PM 7/14/99 -0700, you wrote:

I don't want this to sound like a commercial cause it's not.

I would caution against picking any vendor who does not have a flying
model of their own that they have done the work and test flying on.

Crossflow- While they have some engines flying, most are the old Formula
power engines that they changed ignition and fuel systems on. Rick
Abbots for instance I did the installation complete, and Crossflow took
another few thousand to re-ignition and fuel system. I was still
learning back then and found out that most of the Formula Power problems
were a matter of changing a 5.00 jet. Glass Goose has spent a large sum
of money with Crossflow and that engine is sitting in the back of the
hanger as it doesn't work reliably. I was at Arlington this weekend and
the Zenith factory took the Crossflow engine off their airplane as it
couldn't be made to work. Don't know why, they(Crossflow) did the
installation themselves. I'm just repeating what was told to me
directly so don't think I am bashing the competition, I'm just asking
caution. Ask to fly in their factory demonstrator.

Stratus, a good company and under new ownership. The guy who used to
build engines for NSI bought the company. He doesn't fly but the hard
work has been done. They don't offer cooling solutions or other common
problem solutions but they don't promise the moon either. I have flown
behind one and it works good. Their drive is quite heavy for the Rebel
though. About 35# more than ours. Close to 80#. Offset is also larger
leaving not very much room under the engine for cooling. They have
nothing flying now as the factory demonstrator seized last year.
Problem has been located and solved though. Don't fret about the NSI
connection. This guy has built more engines than all the rest of us
combined and is really a nice guy.

Eggenfeller- This is a stock setup and I have reports that the cooling
doesn't work. Low power and to hot. They have been around a long time
though and have paid their dues. Don't know if they fly. I don't think
so but could be wrong. I don't like much of their stuff, but you
probably didn't really think I would now did you.

As far as NSI goes. Don't send a check before delivery and be prepared
for it not to work real good. I had lots of problems with mine. That
is what I started with. The drives have been a real problem in terms of
longevity. They are certainly beautiful, but beware.

So ends my soapbox on the competition. Hope it doesn't sound to
tainted. I am just so very pleased with our system......finally.
--
Dave Bangle http://www.subielyc.com/

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

Bob Patterson wrote:

Terry,

The Subaru props can swing BOTH ways !! :-) ;-) Depends on

whether

you are using a belt or gear re-drive, and whose configuration ....
This is one of many reasons why some Rebel builders have chosen to

position

their vertical fins in the CENTER, rather than offset either way !

There are several good Subaru conversions out there - only one you
REALLY should AVOID is NSI !! Nice displays - hardly any deliveries -
DO <NOT> send them a deposit !!!

Some of the good guys :

Our own Dave Bangle (on this list) at : http://www.subielyc.com/

and, in Canada, Crossflow Aero, at : www.crossflow.com

Also, have heard good things about Stratus (sorry, no address),

although

I believe they mainly do the smaller EA-81 Subarus. Another name you see
a lot is Eggenfellner Advanced Aircraft Engines - anybody got any

feedback

on them ???

A firewall-forward package is appealing, BUT they can be more

expensive

than you might expect ! These folks have done a LOT of research &

testing,

and really put together a complete package, and have to make a living !!
(and they don't sell thousands of these engines a year ! :-) )

I'm sure there is enough expertise here to guide you through the
selection of parts ( I'm pretty sure Dave will sell mounts, etc. ...)
and integration, if you're inclined that way. I stick by my statement

that

you should figure on most of an extra year of changes & adjustments &
possible parts replacements, if you go the do-it-yourself route ! I DO
hope that this will change as the group gathers experience, but EVERYBODY
I know who has done this has spent a LOT of extra time changing

radiators,

cowling, etc... Of course, several builders with Lycosauruses have ALSO
spent extra time with cowling, vents, and oil coolers .... And I still
believe that, like the Rebel, the Subaru conversions are " Worth the

effort" !!

They are certainly a valid alternative - as is my favorite, the Rotax

912-S,

for real flying economy !!

There are several Crossflow conversions flying up here - flew one
about 4 years ago - very nice. Dave Bangle likely has more hours of
actually FLYING a Subaru Rebel than ANYBODY ! I'm sure he will chime in
with recommendations ....

Like it or not, more Subarus are appearing at airports everywhere !

.....bobp

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