Subaru RPM

[Dick Kyro]

Hi Geert,

I guess the 5K was my own mental redline, based on nothing more than the
belief that I would get longer engine life, and the uncomfortable feeling of
running a four stroke at Rotax speeds.

I read where Subaru tested the 2.2 when in developement, ran them full bore
for 17 hrs without failure. Tell that to NASCAR!!

I guess I'll have to push the throttle a bit further next time I fly!!


Thanks Geert

Dick K
R206

From: Bob Patterson <apat@istar.ca>
Reply-To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Subaru RPM
Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 18:07:47 -0400

Hi Dick !

I second the sentiment !! Several Rebel builders are
cruising the Legacy 2.2 at 5,400 all day long - with 5,800 possible
wide open, straight & level (gives over 135 mph !!)

According to the folks at Crossflow Aero, you can run a
2.2 for hours/days at 7,500 rpm with no harm - they've got race
cars doing this ! They've been building up Subaru engines for
over 20 years, have a flow bench & all the tools, and make a
firewall-forward package for Rebels, so have a BIT of experience !!

Thanks for jumping in Geert !

.....bobp

---------------------------------orig.----------------------------
At 05:13 PM 5/2/03 -0400, you wrote:

Attn. Dick Kyro, I am the guy with the exact same Subaru/ Ross Aero/
Warp Drive prop as you seem to have. You must get 5300 to 5350 on
take-off or you are not pulling 135 hp that you are supposed to get.
Whoever gave you that "5K" redline?? This info is also backed up by the
Subaru expert Jan Eggenfellner. Ok? Geert Frank



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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Dick !

I second the sentiment !! Several Rebel builders are
cruising the Legacy 2.2 at 5,400 all day long - with 5,800 possible
wide open, straight & level (gives over 135 mph !!)

According to the folks at Crossflow Aero, you can run a
2.2 for hours/days at 7,500 rpm with no harm - they've got race
cars doing this ! They've been building up Subaru engines for
over 20 years, have a flow bench & all the tools, and make a
firewall-forward package for Rebels, so have a BIT of experience !!

Thanks for jumping in Geert !

.....bobp

---------------------------------orig.----------------------------
At 05:13 PM 5/2/03 -0400, you wrote:

Attn. Dick Kyro, I am the guy with the exact same Subaru/ Ross Aero/
Warp Drive prop as you seem to have. You must get 5300 to 5350 on
take-off or you are not pulling 135 hp that you are supposed to get.
Whoever gave you that "5K" redline?? This info is also backed up by the
Subaru expert Jan Eggenfellner. Ok? Geert Frank



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[storchpilot]

Hi Dick and bobp,

I quoted Eggenfellner as an "expert", but I have had only limited
experience with the Crossflow people, BUT from what I have perceived in
conversations with them some time ago and reputation from others, these
guys also know their Subaru conversion business. There used to be a
little controversy, "was it a good idea to mess with the (Subaru)
engines' guts, after all did the factory's engineers not know best?" I
believe the Crossflow people and the guys that mess with the camshafts
seem to have proved conservatives (like myself) wrong. I have been told
that the easy and least expensive way to turn my 135 hp 2.2 liter into
165 hp is to have the cams ground. I am too chicken to have this done.
Sorry. I cruise by the way at 4900 RPM, the associate temperatures and
prop behavior indicate that all is well. I swear by the Warp Drive, I
keep checking for those cracks...nothing, knock on wood. However I would
surely go along with the more expert folks, that seem to have trouble
with the WD when used on higher hp engines, be they aircraft engines or
the 2.5 liter and up Subarus. To an engine layman like myself, the
total lack of vibration of at least the Subaru automotive conversion is
unreal. You can literally put a cup of coffee on top of the engine and
it just sits there!
I must repeat my observation: when it comes time to sell, right or
wrong, the Subaru power will be a slight disadvantage over the Lycoming
150 or 160 hp installation. One final question: are you implying that
you take off with partial throttle Dick? That is not on, as they say in
the jolly old UK, I am curious what you will read when that throttle
goes all the way in. Remember 5300 at least or something is amiss.
Assuming of course you have your prop blades set correctly. Ok? Geert
Frank



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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Geert !

I agree completely on not messing with the engine !!
To me, the big advantage of an auto conversion is the convenience
of going to any neighbourhood auto parts store, and buying
off-the-shelf parts for VERY reasonable prices !

The Crossflow guys have built several very special
Subaru conversions for aircraft - a fair number were so exotic
that the got over 200 hp out of a specially imported 2 Liter
4 cyl. !! They also 'fixed' a few Formula Power 2.2 L conversions,
with Rebello pistons, special cams & cranks, etc.... in the
165 to 180 hp range. None of that appeals to me !!

I <would> get them to 'polish & port' a stock 2.5 L
Sub - that's 165 hp <in the car> , plus whatever flow balancing
would gain, and leave it at that !!

You're absolutely right - the Subaru Rebels run SO much
SMOOTHER, and typically burn about 60 % of the fuel of an
equivalent Lycoming - a wag said that "They're BOTH liquid
cooled engines, it's just that the Lyc. uses GASOLINE instead
of water !!" ;-) :-^) As I recall, your water and oil
temps never varied more than a couple of degrees from climb
to cruise - very civilized !!

The Warp Drives work GREAT on any engine with a re-drive -
it's the direct drive power pulses, especially from high-compression
engines, that seems to do them in.

I've stood beside a Rebel with a W-D during run-up
(probably not too smart an idea !) - the blades CONE forward
a good 3 or 4 inches under higher rpms ! Maybe this effectively
changes blade angles and prop diameter, giving this "near constant
speed" effect ??? I'm sure it would be flatter at speed,
in flight ...

.....bobp

--------------------------------orig.----------------------------
At 08:47 AM 5/3/03 -0400, you wrote:

Hi Dick and bobp,

I quoted Eggenfellner as an "expert", but I have had only limited
experience with the Crossflow people, BUT from what I have perceived in
conversations with them some time ago and reputation from others, these
guys also know their Subaru conversion business. There used to be a
little controversy, "was it a good idea to mess with the (Subaru)
engines' guts, after all did the factory's engineers not know best?" I
believe the Crossflow people and the guys that mess with the camshafts
seem to have proved conservatives (like myself) wrong. I have been told
that the easy and least expensive way to turn my 135 hp 2.2 liter into
165 hp is to have the cams ground. I am too chicken to have this done.
Sorry. I cruise by the way at 4900 RPM, the associate temperatures and
prop behavior indicate that all is well. I swear by the Warp Drive, I
keep checking for those cracks...nothing, knock on wood. However I would
surely go along with the more expert folks, that seem to have trouble
with the WD when used on higher hp engines, be they aircraft engines or
the 2.5 liter and up Subarus. To an engine layman like myself, the
total lack of vibration of at least the Subaru automotive conversion is
unreal. You can literally put a cup of coffee on top of the engine and
it just sits there!
I must repeat my observation: when it comes time to sell, right or
wrong, the Subaru power will be a slight disadvantage over the Lycoming
150 or 160 hp installation. One final question: are you implying that
you take off with partial throttle Dick? That is not on, as they say in
the jolly old UK, I am curious what you will read when that throttle
goes all the way in. Remember 5300 at least or something is amiss.
Assuming of course you have your prop blades set correctly. Ok? Geert
Frank



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[Legeorgen]

Hi Bobp,

If I had to do it again I would give the Subaru more consideration over the
Lycoming. I was spoiled with the Water cooled 912 and it ran a lot smoother
too. It was nice never having to worry about shock cooling. And I'm still
trying to get used to the shake of the Lycoming. Walter's 0320 felt the same
so I'm sure I just forgot from my early days of flying Lycomings.

I can already see how the vibration begins to wear on things like the cowling
where it fastens t the fuselage. Everything has to be bumbered and cushioned.

I think the Subaru is proving to be a reliable engine as time has shown.

Still happy with my 0320!

Bruce
357R



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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Bruce !

I loved my 912 too ! One of these years, i'd like
to try a Rebel with a 912-S ... I think it might be <my>
ideal airplane !!! ;-) :-)

.....bobp

--------------------------------orig.-----------------------------
At 10:33 PM 5/3/03 EDT, you wrote:

Hi Bobp,

If I had to do it again I would give the Subaru more consideration over the
Lycoming. I was spoiled with the Water cooled 912 and it ran a lot smoother
too. It was nice never having to worry about shock cooling. And I'm still
trying to get used to the shake of the Lycoming. Walter's 0320 felt the same
so I'm sure I just forgot from my early days of flying Lycomings.

I can already see how the vibration begins to wear on things like the cowling
where it fastens t the fuselage. Everything has to be bumbered and cushioned.

I think the Subaru is proving to be a reliable engine as time has shown.

Still happy with my 0320!

Bruce
357R



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[Legeorgen]

Bobp,

Well, I've got the 912S if you got a Rebel to try it on!

Bruce 357R



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[bransom]

-> I agree completely on not messing with the engine !!
-> To me, the big advantage of an auto conversion is the convenience
-> of going to any neighbourhood auto parts store, and buying
-> off-the-shelf parts for VERY reasonable prices !

But Bob, this is why we are builders instead of C-150 pilots. Always trying
to find a better way, and not shy about some serious tinkering! I'm starting
to feel halfway educated about the Subaru options and I'm thinking a Delta
cammed 2.2 plus Warp drive plus Marcotte can be done with equal or better
reliability, performance (including even CG and weight by a smidge), and cost
than a Lyc 0320. Obviously with new stuff the installation is lots more work
and the inspection intervals are short. The biggest concern I would have is
Marcotte not staying in the game.

-> I've stood beside a Rebel with a W-D during run-up
-> (probably not too smart an idea !) - the blades CONE forward
-> a good 3 or 4 inches under higher rpms ! Maybe this effectively
-> changes blade angles and prop diameter, giving this "near constant
-> speed" effect ??? I'm sure it would be flatter at speed,
-> in flight ...
-> .....bobp

I guess this puts a dent in my theory that WD props are not flexing or
twisting enf to account for the 'almost constant speed' behaviour. Mine (66"
diam on 40hp Kolb) seem sooo stiff that I've thought it must be the partial
stall at the tips theory to account for their almost CS behavior. You're sure
it was a Warp drive prop doing that flexing, not some other flimso thing like
an Ivo? On our ultralights the IVO drivers need a big spacer to prevent the
prop from flexing forward (pusher) into the back of the ailerons.

Sorry if this is not of general interest -- I can't seem to reply to Private
conference.
-Ben


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[klehman]

Ben

I'd mostly agree except maybe for weight which will likely be as much as
an 0-320 or a touch more. Fortunately I won't need to carry as much fuel
though. The only Delta cam grind I'm aware of is for the older ej22.
Perhaps there is one now for the newer engines with roller lifters? Let
us know if you find one. A single cam year 2000 or newer ej25 is not
much heavier at all than an ej22 and might be worth considering if you
want that extra power. The older dual cam ej25 was about 25 lb. heavier.

My installation cost is going to be close to a used 0-320 and possibly
close to a rebuilt one if I put any value at all on my time. Subaru ej22
prices may be reasonable compared to Lycoming but they are not in the
same ballpark as the Chrysler and GM parts that I'm used to. Costs can
add up quickly and I've occasionally found that the shelf those parts
are on is on the other side of an ocean...

I haven't flown yet but so far I'd still do it again as I don't want a
Lycoming. The Subaru has added a couple of years and several new
acquired skills to the project.

Ken
ej22, Marcotte, warp drive

bransom@dcsol.com wrote:

-> I agree completely on not messing with the engine !!
-> To me, the big advantage of an auto conversion is the convenience
-> of going to any neighbourhood auto parts store, and buying
-> off-the-shelf parts for VERY reasonable prices !

But Bob, this is why we are builders instead of C-150 pilots. Always trying
to find a better way, and not shy about some serious tinkering! I'm starting
to feel halfway educated about the Subaru options and I'm thinking a Delta
cammed 2.2 plus Warp drive plus Marcotte can be done with equal or better
reliability, performance (including even CG and weight by a smidge), and cost
than a Lyc 0320. Obviously with new stuff the installation is lots more work
and the inspection intervals are short. The biggest concern I would have is
Marcotte not staying in the game.

-> I've stood beside a Rebel with a W-D during run-up
-> (probably not too smart an idea !) - the blades CONE forward
-> a good 3 or 4 inches under higher rpms ! Maybe this effectively
-> changes blade angles and prop diameter, giving this "near constant
-> speed" effect ??? I'm sure it would be flatter at speed,
-> in flight ...
-> .....bobp

I guess this puts a dent in my theory that WD props are not flexing or
twisting enf to account for the 'almost constant speed' behaviour. Mine (66"
diam on 40hp Kolb) seem sooo stiff that I've thought it must be the partial
stall at the tips theory to account for their almost CS behavior. You're sure
it was a Warp drive prop doing that flexing, not some other flimso thing like
an Ivo? On our ultralights the IVO drivers need a big spacer to prevent the
prop from flexing forward (pusher) into the back of the ailerons.

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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Ben !

Well, by all means, tinker away !! I'm from the 'Flyer'
segment, not the 'Builder' group - I'd just want to get flying
ASAP, with as little fiddling as possible .... just my position.

I've flown a few Subaru Rebels, and been exposed to several
more ... I seriously doubt that you'll be able to match the Lyc.
weight on a complete install, with water, etc. - but you CAN get
within 10-20 lbs. .. I DO agree completely that the Sube will
smoother, at least equally reliable, and burn a LOT less fuel,
while giving more horsepower - but I would still prefer to go
with the newer 2.5 L. engine. They're VERY close in weight to
the 2.2, have 165 hp. right out of the car (no fiddling !),
and I hear they will fit exactly the same mounts - and, being
newer, parts should be available longer !

Costwise, it's not likely to be the dramatic saving
that many people expect - re-drives, computers, wiring, instrumentation,
radiators, mounts, cowlings, and exhausts are all 'semi-custom', and
the costs rise quickly ..... especially when you make the
"3rd and final" version ! ;-)
......and that's not counting your time !
That said, you DO get (<I> think) better value for your money in
the long run - overall, the Sube should be a better choice.

As for Marcotte stopping manufacture - the drive should
last longer than the engine, from what I've seen of it, so that
shouldn't be a worry !! ;-)

The 'coning' of Warp Drives has been observed on several
of them. There ARE a couple of people here flying with the
IVO in-flight adjustable props, with 'mixed' results....
I agree they look 'flimso' - sure make ME nervous - but I guess
<they> like to 'tinker' ! ;-) ;-^) :-)

.....bobp

----------------------------------orig.---------------------------
At 10:27 AM 5/7/03 -0800, you wrote:

-> I agree completely on not messing with the engine !!
-> To me, the big advantage of an auto conversion is the convenience
-> of going to any neighbourhood auto parts store, and buying
-> off-the-shelf parts for VERY reasonable prices !

But Bob, this is why we are builders instead of C-150 pilots. Always trying
to find a better way, and not shy about some serious tinkering! I'm starting
to feel halfway educated about the Subaru options and I'm thinking a Delta
cammed 2.2 plus Warp drive plus Marcotte can be done with equal or better
reliability, performance (including even CG and weight by a smidge), and cost
than a Lyc 0320. Obviously with new stuff the installation is lots more work
and the inspection intervals are short. The biggest concern I would have is
Marcotte not staying in the game.

-> I've stood beside a Rebel with a W-D during run-up
-> (probably not too smart an idea !) - the blades CONE forward
-> a good 3 or 4 inches under higher rpms ! Maybe this effectively
-> changes blade angles and prop diameter, giving this "near constant
-> speed" effect ??? I'm sure it would be flatter at speed,
-> in flight ...
-> .....bobp

I guess this puts a dent in my theory that WD props are not flexing or
twisting enf to account for the 'almost constant speed' behaviour. Mine (66"
diam on 40hp Kolb) seem sooo stiff that I've thought it must be the partial
stall at the tips theory to account for their almost CS behavior. You're sure
it was a Warp drive prop doing that flexing, not some other flimso thing like
an Ivo? On our ultralights the IVO drivers need a big spacer to prevent the
prop from flexing forward (pusher) into the back of the ailerons.

Sorry if this is not of general interest -- I can't seem to reply to Private
conference.
-Ben


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[bransom]

Ken, Bob, others,
I'll take your notes here as reinforcement that I really am only *halfway*
educated (at best) on the Sub options. I didn't know the Delta cam was only
good on the older 2.2s and I didn't know that the more recent 2.5s are so
close in weight to the 2.2s! You guys that have flown, or are close to flying
these are a great help in filling in some reality. The gyro Subaru guys
really like to claim slight weight savings on the 2.2 compared to 0-320 so
perhaps I'm buying into that too much. Ken, do you have a stock intake
manifold or did you make a composite one? AirSoob list folks claim 20 lbs
savings there.
Thanks again,
-Ben Ransom


-> Ben
->
-> I'd mostly agree except maybe for weight which will likely be as much as
-> an 0-320 or a touch more. Fortunately I won't need to carry as much fuel
-> though. The only Delta cam grind I'm aware of is for the older ej22.
-> Perhaps there is one now for the newer engines with roller lifters? Let
-> us know if you find one. A single cam year 2000 or newer ej25 is not
-> much heavier at all than an ej22 and might be worth considering if you
-> want that extra power. The older dual cam ej25 was about 25 lb. heavier.
->
-> My installation cost is going to be close to a used 0-320 and possibly
-> close to a rebuilt one if I put any value at all on my time. Subaru ej22
-> prices may be reasonable compared to Lycoming but they are not in the
-> same ballpark as the Chrysler and GM parts that I'm used to. Costs can
-> add up quickly and I've occasionally found that the shelf those parts
-> are on is on the other side of an ocean...
->
-> I haven't flown yet but so far I'd still do it again as I don't want a
-> Lycoming. The Subaru has added a couple of years and several new
-> acquired skills to the project.
->
-> Ken
-> ej22, Marcotte, warp drive
->
-> bransom@dcsol.com wrote:
-> > -> I agree completely on not messing with the engine !!
-> > -> To me, the big advantage of an auto conversion is the convenience
-> > -> of going to any neighbourhood auto parts store, and buying
-> > -> off-the-shelf parts for VERY reasonable prices !
-> >
-> > But Bob, this is why we are builders instead of C-150 pilots. Always
trying
-> > to find a better way, and not shy about some serious tinkering! I'm
starting
-> > to feel halfway educated about the Subaru options and I'm thinking a
Delta
-> > cammed 2.2 plus Warp drive plus Marcotte can be done with equal or better
-> > reliability, performance (including even CG and weight by a smidge), and
cost
-> > than a Lyc 0320. Obviously with new stuff the installation is lots more
work
-> > and the inspection intervals are short. The biggest concern I would have
is
-> > Marcotte not staying in the game.
-> >
-> > -> I've stood beside a Rebel with a W-D during run-up
-> > -> (probably not too smart an idea !) - the blades CONE forward
-> > -> a good 3 or 4 inches under higher rpms ! Maybe this effectively
-> > -> changes blade angles and prop diameter, giving this "near constant
-> > -> speed" effect ??? I'm sure it would be flatter at speed,
-> > -> in flight ...
-> > -> .....bobp
-> >
-> > I guess this puts a dent in my theory that WD props are not flexing or
-> > twisting enf to account for the 'almost constant speed' behaviour. Mine
(66"
-> > diam on 40hp Kolb) seem sooo stiff that I've thought it must be the
partial
-> > stall at the tips theory to account for their almost CS behavior. You're
sure
-> > it was a Warp drive prop doing that flexing, not some other flimso thing
like
-> > an Ivo? On our ultralights the IVO drivers need a big spacer to prevent
the
-> > prop from flexing forward (pusher) into the back of the ailerons.
->
->




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[klehman]

Yeah I've been hearing that 15-20 lb claim for years. Fact is if you
strip the stock intake manifold it only weighs a tad over 8 lbs. There
is a lot of other stuff bolted to it that I guess you wouldn't need if
you went to a carbuerator. I just cut the throttle body flange off and
welded it back on horizontal which gave me cowl clearance on the
aluminum cowl. An older manifold (mine is 1997) will sit a bit higher
than mine though even after such a mod. You could save a few lbs there
if desperate but the factory intake tuning does seem to work OK.

Other thing is what does an installed 0-320 really weigh? I believe it's
right up there at a tad over 300 lbs and the choice of prop can give the
edge to either engine when it comes to weight. There are several areas
on my installation where I can go back and shave a few lbs off but first
I'd like to fly it and make sure I'm happy with the big picture :) .

You sound like a good candidate to do this. Some of my motivation is
that I've yet to see a commercial firewall forward installation of any
auto engine that I didn't have reservations about in at least one area.

Ken

bransom@dcsol.com wrote:

Ken, Bob, others,
I'll take your notes here as reinforcement that I really am only *halfway*
educated (at best) on the Sub options. I didn't know the Delta cam was only
good on the older 2.2s and I didn't know that the more recent 2.5s are so
close in weight to the 2.2s! You guys that have flown, or are close to flying
these are a great help in filling in some reality. The gyro Subaru guys
really like to claim slight weight savings on the 2.2 compared to 0-320 so
perhaps I'm buying into that too much. Ken, do you have a stock intake
manifold or did you make a composite one? AirSoob list folks claim 20 lbs
savings there.
Thanks again,
-Ben Ransom

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[dmp]

On 9 May 2003 at 17:25, klehman@albedo.net wrote:

Yeah I've been hearing that 15-20 lb claim for years. Fact is if you
strip the stock intake manifold it only weighs a tad over 8 lbs. There

Make sure you're not comparing oranges to grapefruits. (Same
family, differnt sizes.) My numbers are from a six cylinder Subaru
EG-33, and the original manafold is about 17lbs, and the throttle
body about 5. My graphite manafold is 12oz, and the machined TB
is about 4lbs.

22lbs - 5lbs = 17lbs weight savings.

Now if someone had an aluminum replacement for the cast iron
water pump assembly...

---
David Parrish



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[klehman]

Pretty sure he asked about an ej22 but yes the 8 lbs is for a 4 cylinder
ej22.
Ken

dmp@radbsd.mcg.edu wrote:

On 9 May 2003 at 17:25, klehman@albedo.net wrote:

Yeah I've been hearing that 15-20 lb claim for years. Fact is if you
strip the stock intake manifold it only weighs a tad over 8 lbs. There

Make sure you're not comparing oranges to grapefruits. (Same
family, differnt sizes.) My numbers are from a six cylinder Subaru
EG-33, and the original manafold is about 17lbs, and the throttle
body about 5. My graphite manafold is 12oz, and the machined TB
is about 4lbs.

22lbs - 5lbs = 17lbs weight savings.

Now if someone had an aluminum replacement for the cast iron
water pump assembly...

---
David Parrish

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