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Message-ID: <36E4B1B2.23D0@nf.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 21:29:22 -0800
From: Clay Smith <clay-barb.smith@nf.sympatico.ca>
Organization: Smith Services
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To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Flaps
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Hi Group,
Don't worry, I'm not going to bring up that "split-flaps vs flaperons"
subject again. I have decided to go with the flaperons for now, and
maybe change over to the spilt-flaps later. ( which I can see isn't to
big a job). I would like to ask the group about any flaperon tips
that maybe out there. In particular, I'm interested in the flap handle
and cable mechanism design. I'm told by some that full application
of flaps(factory design)is hard to achieve. One of the Murhpy factory
techs told me about a few builders out there who had some good ideas
about modifying the flaperon mechanism, but I never did follow up. That
was last year. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks, Clay
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Flaps
-
Mike Davis
Flaps
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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: Flaps
Message-Id: <E10KBp0-0005MZ-00@mail2.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 21:00:39 -0500
One of the best things you can do is throw away the factory flap handle !
Most of the guys here have gone to an L or V shaped handle cut from flat
stock - about a 45 degree angle for about 5 or 6 inches at the bottom.
There are carved oak handles for the stick & flap handles available from
one of the builders - he also includes a template for the flap handle
metal. (about $35 ... )
This angle makes it a lot easier to pull full flap, and when you are
in negative for cruise, the handle is tucked up forward, out of the way.
If you have a larger engine, you can also drill one extra notch of
negative flap - it will give you another 3 mph or so of cruise.
When rigging the flaps, have a couple of people push up on them to
simulate air loads, then adjust so they are flush with the wing tips/root.
This may leave you with a small droop on the ground, but guarantees that
you will be able to get full flap in flight. The Rebel can make a REALLY
steep approach, with full flap, and 70 - 75 mph - great for getting
down after tall trees, into small strips !!
You'll be happy with the flapperons !! ;-)
.....bobp
------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 09:29 PM 3/8/99 -0800, you wrote:
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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: Flaps
Message-Id: <E10KBp0-0005MZ-00@mail2.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 21:00:39 -0500
One of the best things you can do is throw away the factory flap handle !
Most of the guys here have gone to an L or V shaped handle cut from flat
stock - about a 45 degree angle for about 5 or 6 inches at the bottom.
There are carved oak handles for the stick & flap handles available from
one of the builders - he also includes a template for the flap handle
metal. (about $35 ... )
This angle makes it a lot easier to pull full flap, and when you are
in negative for cruise, the handle is tucked up forward, out of the way.
If you have a larger engine, you can also drill one extra notch of
negative flap - it will give you another 3 mph or so of cruise.
When rigging the flaps, have a couple of people push up on them to
simulate air loads, then adjust so they are flush with the wing tips/root.
This may leave you with a small droop on the ground, but guarantees that
you will be able to get full flap in flight. The Rebel can make a REALLY
steep approach, with full flap, and 70 - 75 mph - great for getting
down after tall trees, into small strips !!
You'll be happy with the flapperons !! ;-)
.....bobp
------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 09:29 PM 3/8/99 -0800, you wrote:
Hi Group,
Don't worry, I'm not going to bring up that "split-flaps vs flaperons"
subject again. I have decided to go with the flaperons for now, and
maybe change over to the spilt-flaps later. ( which I can see isn't to
big a job). I would like to ask the group about any flaperon tips
that maybe out there. In particular, I'm interested in the flap handle
and cable mechanism design. I'm told by some that full application
of flaps(factory design)is hard to achieve. One of the Murhpy factory
techs told me about a few builders out there who had some good ideas
about modifying the flaperon mechanism, but I never did follow up. That
was last year. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks, Clay
-
Murray and Carol Cherkas
flaps
Hello All
I spoke to Brian when setting my torque tubes. Couldn't seem to get much
down flap. He said that all I will get is 15* down and 12* up. Does this
make cents?
Thanks
Murray
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I spoke to Brian when setting my torque tubes. Couldn't seem to get much
down flap. He said that all I will get is 15* down and 12* up. Does this
make cents?
Thanks
Murray
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-
Mike Kimball
flaps
Nope. Doesn't make sense. Ailerons should be 15 up, 12 down. Flaps should
be 25 down max with 12 deg of aileron droop. This is according to an old
email in the archives from Brian Godden and is for a Super Rebel. I don't
know if it's different for a Rebel. Now if you went with my roof mounted
flap system you could have 40 down on the flaps if you wanted. I have that
available in case I want spoilers for a steep descent instead of flaps
creating lift at lower deflections.
Mike Kimball
SR #044
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Murray and Carol Cherkas
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 8:42 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: flaps
Hello All
I spoke to Brian when setting my torque tubes. Couldn't seem to get much
down flap. He said that all I will get is 15* down and 12* up. Does this
make cents?
Thanks
Murray
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be 25 down max with 12 deg of aileron droop. This is according to an old
email in the archives from Brian Godden and is for a Super Rebel. I don't
know if it's different for a Rebel. Now if you went with my roof mounted
flap system you could have 40 down on the flaps if you wanted. I have that
available in case I want spoilers for a steep descent instead of flaps
creating lift at lower deflections.
Mike Kimball
SR #044
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Murray and Carol Cherkas
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 8:42 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: flaps
Hello All
I spoke to Brian when setting my torque tubes. Couldn't seem to get much
down flap. He said that all I will get is 15* down and 12* up. Does this
make cents?
Thanks
Murray
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-
Walter Klatt
flaps
Hey, Murray, I just checked my current set-up.
Full flaps is 20 degrees down from neutral, and I have
2 reflex positions at 6 and 12 degrees. However, my
neutral position has about a 3 degree droop from true
neutral, so you could add 3 to the flap at 23, and
subtract 3 from reflex at 9. This because I adjusted my
cable so that in the full flap position my mixer arm is
tight against the bottom to take out any slack from the
cable. Hence, I lose a little reflex with some slack at
that end. I chose to have the least slack in the cable
in the full flap position to maximize their
effectiveness.
These settings are on the ground, of course, so with
the flex in the system, not really sure what the actual
flap and reflex numbers would be in flight, but
obviously somewhat less.
Walter
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Full flaps is 20 degrees down from neutral, and I have
2 reflex positions at 6 and 12 degrees. However, my
neutral position has about a 3 degree droop from true
neutral, so you could add 3 to the flap at 23, and
subtract 3 from reflex at 9. This because I adjusted my
cable so that in the full flap position my mixer arm is
tight against the bottom to take out any slack from the
cable. Hence, I lose a little reflex with some slack at
that end. I chose to have the least slack in the cable
in the full flap position to maximize their
effectiveness.
These settings are on the ground, of course, so with
the flex in the system, not really sure what the actual
flap and reflex numbers would be in flight, but
obviously somewhat less.
Walter
cribe.wcx-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Murray and Carol Cherkas
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 9:42 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: flaps
Hello All
I spoke to Brian when setting my torque
tubes. Couldn't seem to get much
down flap. He said that all I will get is
15* down and 12* up. Does this
make cents?
Thanks
Murray
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-
Legeorgen
flaps
Hi Rick,
That's right Rick, you will not get the same 18* flap in flight. There is
some inherent slop in the way the control mechanism is set up, not so much
slop in the cable, as it's so often described. There are ways to remove some
of it as Walter and Bobp described.
The full span flaps are very effective even with the slop. Just build it and
fly it, you can always change it later if you feel you need more flap.
Bruce 357R
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That's right Rick, you will not get the same 18* flap in flight. There is
some inherent slop in the way the control mechanism is set up, not so much
slop in the cable, as it's so often described. There are ways to remove some
of it as Walter and Bobp described.
The full span flaps are very effective even with the slop. Just build it and
fly it, you can always change it later if you feel you need more flap.
Bruce 357R
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Bob Patterson
flaps
Hi Rick !
You could if you wanted to - IF you feel you need more
flap, but if they're working OK, I wouldn't bother !! It will
make a big hole in a full day to fiddle with everything and
get it set up evenly !! :-)
If you don't already have 2 holes for negative (giving
6 and 12 UP), I <would> add the second one - you WILL use it
with all those extra ponies !! ;-)
......bobp
-----------------------------------orig.---------------------------
At 09:53 PM 5/4/03 +1000, you wrote:
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You could if you wanted to - IF you feel you need more
flap, but if they're working OK, I wouldn't bother !! It will
make a big hole in a full day to fiddle with everything and
get it set up evenly !! :-)
If you don't already have 2 holes for negative (giving
6 and 12 UP), I <would> add the second one - you WILL use it
with all those extra ponies !! ;-)
......bobp
-----------------------------------orig.---------------------------
At 09:53 PM 5/4/03 +1000, you wrote:
Hey Walter, Murray & Bob ...
When we set up out flaps , we did them without this "getting two people
to push up on the surfaces to simulate aerodynamic forces" stuff .....
so obviously we aren't getting IN FLIGHT what we are getting on the deck
/ stationary ..... should we be looking to do it with the two people
pushing up on the flaperons... so we actually / really get the 6, 12 &
18 down that you speak of "in flight" .......or, are the angles stated
(6,12 & 18) the right angles to set up on the ground to give the real
end result angles in the air !?!
(I always thought they didn't seem to "look like" they were drooping at
the angles in flight that they were supposed to ! )
Thanks
Rick & Wendy Harper .... 541R
----- Original Message -----
From: Walter Klatt
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 6:06 AM
Subject: RE: flaps
Hey, Murray, I just checked my current set-up.
Full flaps is 20 degrees down from neutral, and I have
2 reflex positions at 6 and 12 degrees. However, my
neutral position has about a 3 degree droop from true
neutral, so you could add 3 to the flap at 23, and
subtract 3 from reflex at 9. This because I adjusted my
cable so that in the full flap position my mixer arm is
tight against the bottom to take out any slack from the
cable. Hence, I lose a little reflex with some slack at
that end. I chose to have the least slack in the cable
in the full flap position to maximize their
effectiveness.
These settings are on the ground, of course, so with
the flex in the system, not really sure what the actual
flap and reflex numbers would be in flight, but
obviously somewhat less.
Walter
cribe.wcx-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Murray and Carol Cherkas
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 9:42 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: flaps
Hello All
I spoke to Brian when setting my torque
tubes. Couldn't seem to get much
down flap. He said that all I will get is
15* down and 12* up. Does this
make cents?
Thanks
Murray
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Rick Harper
flaps
Hey Walter, Murray & Bob ...
When we set up out flaps , we did them without this "getting two people
to push up on the surfaces to simulate aerodynamic forces" stuff .....
so obviously we aren't getting IN FLIGHT what we are getting on the deck
/ stationary ..... should we be looking to do it with the two people
pushing up on the flaperons... so we actually / really get the 6, 12 &
18 down that you speak of "in flight" .......or, are the angles stated
(6,12 & 18) the right angles to set up on the ground to give the real
end result angles in the air !?!
(I always thought they didn't seem to "look like" they were drooping at
the angles in flight that they were supposed to ! )
Thanks
Rick & Wendy Harper .... 541R
----- Original Message -----
From: Walter Klatt
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 6:06 AM
Subject: RE: flaps
Hey, Murray, I just checked my current set-up.
Full flaps is 20 degrees down from neutral, and I have
2 reflex positions at 6 and 12 degrees. However, my
neutral position has about a 3 degree droop from true
neutral, so you could add 3 to the flap at 23, and
subtract 3 from reflex at 9. This because I adjusted my
cable so that in the full flap position my mixer arm is
tight against the bottom to take out any slack from the
cable. Hence, I lose a little reflex with some slack at
that end. I chose to have the least slack in the cable
in the full flap position to maximize their
effectiveness.
These settings are on the ground, of course, so with
the flex in the system, not really sure what the actual
flap and reflex numbers would be in flight, but
obviously somewhat less.
Walter
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When we set up out flaps , we did them without this "getting two people
to push up on the surfaces to simulate aerodynamic forces" stuff .....
so obviously we aren't getting IN FLIGHT what we are getting on the deck
/ stationary ..... should we be looking to do it with the two people
pushing up on the flaperons... so we actually / really get the 6, 12 &
18 down that you speak of "in flight" .......or, are the angles stated
(6,12 & 18) the right angles to set up on the ground to give the real
end result angles in the air !?!
(I always thought they didn't seem to "look like" they were drooping at
the angles in flight that they were supposed to ! )
Thanks
Rick & Wendy Harper .... 541R
----- Original Message -----
From: Walter Klatt
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 6:06 AM
Subject: RE: flaps
Hey, Murray, I just checked my current set-up.
Full flaps is 20 degrees down from neutral, and I have
2 reflex positions at 6 and 12 degrees. However, my
neutral position has about a 3 degree droop from true
neutral, so you could add 3 to the flap at 23, and
subtract 3 from reflex at 9. This because I adjusted my
cable so that in the full flap position my mixer arm is
tight against the bottom to take out any slack from the
cable. Hence, I lose a little reflex with some slack at
that end. I chose to have the least slack in the cable
in the full flap position to maximize their
effectiveness.
These settings are on the ground, of course, so with
the flex in the system, not really sure what the actual
flap and reflex numbers would be in flight, but
obviously somewhat less.
Walter
cribe.wcx-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Murray and Carol Cherkas
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 9:42 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: flaps
Hello All
I spoke to Brian when setting my torque
tubes. Couldn't seem to get much
down flap. He said that all I will get is
15* down and 12* up. Does this
make cents?
Thanks
Murray
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mbetti
Flaps
Hi all,
I'm mounting my flap handle to the cabin roof. The instructions kind of show a slot cut in the bottom of the front fus65/flap65. I only drilled a large hole to accomodate the flap handle and delrin bearings but didn't cut the slot as shown. With out the slot I wont be able to remove the assembly with out drilling rivets. Is slotting it the way to go here or is that just weakening it?
Thanks,
Mike Betti
771E
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I'm mounting my flap handle to the cabin roof. The instructions kind of show a slot cut in the bottom of the front fus65/flap65. I only drilled a large hole to accomodate the flap handle and delrin bearings but didn't cut the slot as shown. With out the slot I wont be able to remove the assembly with out drilling rivets. Is slotting it the way to go here or is that just weakening it?
Thanks,
Mike Betti
771E
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N.Smith
Flaps
Hi Mike
I'm about to do that bit on mine - and agree the hole seems a better idea
than the slot. Any ideas anyone ?
Nigel
745E
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
mbetti@up.net
Sent: 06 September 2005 17:30
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Flaps
Hi all,
I'm mounting my flap handle to the cabin roof. The instructions kind of show
a slot cut in the bottom of the front fus65/flap65. I only drilled a large
hole to accomodate the flap handle and delrin bearings but didn't cut the
slot as shown. With out the slot I wont be able to remove the assembly with
out drilling rivets. Is slotting it the way to go here or is that just
weakening it?
Thanks,
Mike Betti
771E
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List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
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I'm about to do that bit on mine - and agree the hole seems a better idea
than the slot. Any ideas anyone ?
Nigel
745E
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
mbetti@up.net
Sent: 06 September 2005 17:30
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Flaps
Hi all,
I'm mounting my flap handle to the cabin roof. The instructions kind of show
a slot cut in the bottom of the front fus65/flap65. I only drilled a large
hole to accomodate the flap handle and delrin bearings but didn't cut the
slot as shown. With out the slot I wont be able to remove the assembly with
out drilling rivets. Is slotting it the way to go here or is that just
weakening it?
Thanks,
Mike Betti
771E
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