lycoming 0-235

[rebel]

Wayne,

Thanks once again. Crystal clear in my head now and I will experiment with
the pitch setting.

Bob

On 5/2/2003 7:47 AM, OIFA@IRISHFIELD.ON.CA wrote to MURPHY-REBEL:

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-> Message-ID: <002701c310af$80367680$e401910a@celeron266a>
-> From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
-> To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
-> References: <1051861683@dcsol.com>
-> Subject: Re: lycoming 0-235
-> Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 09:34:02 -0400
-> Organization: O'Shea's Irish Field Aviation
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->
-> I reiterate that this is a major cause of your performance problem. IF you
-> only get 2100 STATIC (when tied to a tree), using a Warp Drive propellor,
-> then she ain't going to go nowhere off that short field except maybe the
end
-> in a ball!
->
-> Repitch the propellor so you get 2400 RPM STATIC. Doing so you should see
-> about 2550 on climb out and I doubt you will be able to exceed 2700 let
-> alone 2800. Then play with it to fine tune from there! If you're not happy
-> with take off performance go finer yet and if she is getting off the ground
-> okay and lacking cruise speed add a bit of pitch back into the propellor.
->
-> I also suggest that you measure your propellor degrees right at the end of
-> the tip if you have the square blade ends so it's easy to make sure they
are
-> all the same. It's also easier to pitch them on a flat surface by tracing
-> one blade profile and the hub and picking the prop up and setting each
blade
-> into the tracing. This takes any surface irregularities/slant etc out of
the
-> equation and guarantees they all get set the same pitch. If you know that
-> your propellor is currently good for identical pitch then pull it off and
-> measure the current pitch (will sitting in the tracing) before loosening
-> anything. You need to take about 3+ degrees out of that propellor to get
the
-> RPM up to 2400. I found each degree pitch changed my 100HP by approximately
-> 70 RPM's.
->
-> On my 100HP engine, mine was pitched 8 1/2* and it gave me 2310 Static and
-> in full power level flight it could only obtain 2550RPM. This gave me
-> 100MPH at full power and 90MPH was typical cruise at 2400RPM.
->
-> Wayne
->
-> ----- Original Message -----
-> From: <rebel@dcsol.com>
-> To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
-> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 3:48 AM
-> Subject: Re: lycoming 0-235
->
->
-> > Hi Wayne,
-> >
-> > I take on board and accept what you are saying and it certainly makes
alot
-> > more sense to try and play with what I got before spending any monies
only
-> to
-> > find little or no improvement.
-> >
-> > Am I right in thinking that if I pitch the prop to achieve the 2800rpm
-> then
-> > it is going to be quite fine (it is 11.5 now, measured 4" in from the tip
-> and
-> > achieves the 2100(ish) static rpm. I accept that I will climb out like a
-> > scaled cat but when I throttle back in the cruise, say 2300rpm, then I am
-> > still going to be turing a very finely pitched prop (save for the
twisting
-> > effect) is this going to have a significant negative effect on
-> performance.
-> > I understand the analogy given earlier about the bike and the different
-> > gears. I think I will be pedalling a mile a minute in the cruise but
-> gettig
-> > nowhere. Just a thought.
-> >
-> > I will definately play around with the pitch etc before doing anything,
-> sound
-> > advice.
-> >
-> > A further thought, my understanding is that the L2C is rated for
-> > 105/112/115/118 hp at 2400/2600/2700/2800 rpm. The hp is governed by the
-> > prop specified for the aircraft presumably to prevent exceeding design
-> > limitations. Now this is all given that they have standard 8.5:1 pistons
-> > (this maybe where I start to go wrong) so in this case you could wind up
-> the
-> > engine to 2800rpm and produce 118hp but then throttle back and accept
less
-> > hp. Now remove the std pistons and install the 108hp pistons and the
-> whole
-> > ball game changes. Even by winding up the engine to 2800rpm you will not
-> get
-> > the 118hp output. You will be reving it away but no extra thrust being
-> > developed.
-> >
-> > I will check my flap settings again because I am certain mine go down to
a
-> > barn door 30degrees. I will certainly try the 18degree inital setting to
-> get
-> > airborne then lose a notch.
-> >
-> > Thanks,
-> >
-> > Bob
-> >
-> > On 5/1/2003 11:33 PM, OIFA@IRISHFIELD.ON.CA wrote to MURPHY-REBEL:
-> >
-> > -> From <oifa@irishfield.on.ca> Thu, 01 May 2003 13:26:39 -0800 remote
-> from
-> > dcsol.com
-> > -> Received: by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP Router v5.6.450.61)
-> > -> for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com; Thu, 01 May 2003 13:26:39 -0800
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-> > helo=celeron266a)
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-> > -> for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com; Thu, 01 May 2003 17:26:43 -0400
-> > -> Message-ID: <002101c31027$b68ae230$e401910a@celeron266a>
-> > -> From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
-> > -> To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
-> > -> References: <E19BG3C-0002E3-00@app5.nasc.inter.net>
-> > -> Subject: Re: lycoming 0-235
-> > -> Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 17:22:02 -0400
-> > -> Organization: O'Shea's Irish Field Aviation
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-> > ->
-> > -> Bob, I echo Bob Patterson there! Take some pitch out of that WD and
run
-> the
-> > -> shit out of it!! I am speaking from experience here as I told you
-> before I
-> > -> had the O-235-C model on my Rebel originally and it was only
-> 100HP@2600RPM.
-> > -> When I changed from my wood prop to the WD (3BLADE x 70") I was
already
-> on
-> > -> skis and tried setting the prop pitch to give a similar 2250 RPM
-> "static
-> > -> tied to a tree" that you would with a metal propellor. The airplane at
-> full
-> > -> power would just barely move in the snow and I thought I had wasted a
-> big
-> > -> chunk of change buying the WDrive. I then repitched to get 2450 to
2475
-> > -> static. At that pitch it jumped out of the snow and climbed at approx
-> > -> 1400FPM (flight weight about 1400lbs). Even with this high of a static
-> RPM
-> > I
-> > -> could not readline past the 2600RPM unless I stuck it in a dive! The
WD
-> > -> seems to twist while in flight and gets a little coarser once you
start
-> > -> bitting air, sorta like a constant speed prop.
-> > ->
-> > -> Knock on wood, my 70" WD is still crack free after 6 years. 2 1/2 of
-> them
-> > on
-> > -> the O-235 and 3 1/2 using the same propellor on my O-320-C2A x 150HP.
-> > ->
-> > -> Try playing with the prop before you spend any money on the engine. If
-> it
-> > -> was originally a 118HP engine then it has no internal reason why you
-> can't
-> > -> use 2800RPM for take off (5 minutes) and 2700 continuous.
-> > ->
-> > -> As for the flaps, if the stick is centered they indeed only go down
18*
-> > -> (well you can sneak it to 23* actually). When you move the stick
-> left/right
-> > -> they indeed go further down so the sucker will turn, but you should
-> have
-> > -> about three notches set at 6*/12*/18* or at the most 7*/15*/23*. I
-> always
-> > -> use full flaps when on skis to help lift me up out of the snow. Same
-> thing
-> > -> applies in heavy grass etc or a short field to get her off the ground,
-> then
-> > -> dump a notch for climb out.
-> > ->
-> > -> Cheers,
-> > -> Wayne
-> > ->
-> > -> ----- Original Message -----
-> > -> From: "Bob Patterson" <apat@istar.ca>
-> > -> To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
-> > -> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 11:32 AM
-> > -> Subject: Re: lycoming 0-235
-> > ->
-> > ->
-> > -> >
-> > -> > Hi Bob !
-> > -> >
-> > -> > Adjusting your W-D to give you about 2,500 (+ ?) static will
-> > -> > at least tell you if you're going the right way ....
-> > -> >
-> > -> > If that does improve your takeoff, then you could feel
better
-> > -> > about going to the Sensenich. It's probably a good decision.
-> > -> >
-> > -> > The flapperons on the Rebel produce more lift than drag,
-> > -> > especially at low speeds. I always take off (and land) with full
-> flap,
-> > -> > as this reduces the ground roll, and the speed. You can drop to
-> > -> > 2 notches for climb, once out of ground effect - some playing around
-> > -> > will find the best climb setting... it might even be one notch,
-> > -> > with the O-235...
-> > -> >
-> > -> > .....bobp
-> > -> >
-> > -> > -----------------------------------orig.----------------------------
-
-> > -> > At 11:34 PM 4/30/03 -0800, you wrote:
-> > -> > >Hi Bobp,
-> > -> > >
-> > -> > >Thanks for the reply,
-> > -> > >
-> > -> > >Sounds like the wd probably is on the short side, WD themselves
said
-> > -> 'about'
-> > -> > >68 or 70, I was working on the premise that 72" on a 2 blade may be
-> > -> similar
-> > -> > >to a the thrust available from a 68" 3 blade, but truth is I do not
-> > know!
-> > -> I
-> > -> > >suppose what is important is the area that the thrust is actually
-> out
-> > and
-> > -> > >beyond the cowling, and the farther out the faster the tip must be
-> > going.
-> > -> > >The blades on the wd are not very deep across so this prob has an
-> > adverse
-> > -> > >effect as well.
-> > -> > >
-> > -> > >On takeoff I have never tried full flap but, have limited it 10
-> degrees,
-> > -> I
-> > -> > >would have thought full flap would also increased the drag
-> considerably
-> > -> and
-> > -> > >defeat the object????
-> > -> > >
-> > -> > >Thanks for you input, I will keep you posted
-> > -> > >
-> > -> > >Bob
-> > -> > >
-> > -> > >
-> > -> > >
-> > -> > >On 4/30/2003 11:26 PM, APAT@ISTAR.CA wrote to MURPHY-REBEL:
-> > -> > >
-> > -> > >-> From <apat@istar.ca> Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:59:02 -0800 remote
from
-> > -> dcsol.com
-> > -> > >-> Received: by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP Router v5.6.450.61)
-> > -> > >-> for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com; Wed, 30 Apr 2003
-> 17:59:02 -0800
-> > -> > >-> Received: from nasc-out-1.nasc.inter.net ([203.176.60.253])
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-> > -> > >-> by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP v5.6.450.61) with SMTP
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-> ([64.10.100.75])
-> > -> > >-> by app6.nasc.inter.net with smtp (Exim 3.34 #1)
-> > -> > >-> id 19B3Ln-0006ew-00
-> > -> > >-> for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:59:07 -0400
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-> > -> > >-> To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
-> > -> > >-> From: Bob Patterson <apat@istar.ca>
-> > -> > >-> Subject: Re: lycoming 0-235
-> > -> > >-> Message-Id: <E19B3Ln-0006ew-00@app6.nasc.inter.net>
-> > -> > >-> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:59:07 -0400
-> > -> > >->
-> > -> > >->
-> > -> > >-> You might be right about your prop - most folks here
-> have
-> > -> > >-> used 70" or 72" diameter Warp Drives. The Rebel is pretty 'fat',
-> > -> > >-> and that short prop might not be moving much air past it !
-> > -> > >->
-> > -> > >-> The original O-235 was 100/108 hp. - the 100 was max.
-> cont.,
-> > -> > >-> and the 108 was for 5 min. at takeoff. I believe that was with
-> > -> > >-> 6.5 to 1 pistons - about what you have. The HP rating was at
-> > -> > >-> 2,600 rpm, as I recall - so it sounds like your W-D was also
-> > -> > >-> pitched a bit too coarse ...
-> > -> > >->
-> > -> > >-> I do remember that the O-235 liked to be cruised fast,
-> > -> > >-> and was happiest cruising all day at 2,450 rpm...... certainly
-> > -> > >-> no danger of harm, as long as your temps are ok.
-> > -> > >->
-> > -> > >-> As for getting the Rebel off the ground, I assume you
-> > -> > >-> are using full flap for takeoff ??? That's what the flap is
-> > -> > >-> there for !!! You can back off to 2 notches after you are out
-> > -> > >-> of ground effect - but using all of it should definitely get
-> > -> > >-> you up faster.
-> > -> > >->
-> > -> > >-> If you still have the W-D, I would just tweak it finer
-> > -> > >-> to give you at least 2,500 static rpm, and see if that helps...
-> > -> > >-> If it does, then going to the Sensenich will likely be a
-> > -> > >-> "Good Thing"(tm). ;-) :-)
-> > -> > >->
-> > -> > >-> Keep us posted ! Good luck !
-> > -> > >->
-> > -> > >-> ....bobp
-> > -> > >->
-> > -> >
-> > ->
-> >-> ---------------------------------orig.---------------------------------
-> > -
-> > -> --
-> > -> > >-> At 12:02 AM 4/30/03 -0800, you wrote:
-> > -> > >-> >Hi Bob,
-> > -> > >-> >
-> > -> > >-> >Thanks for the reply, as with Drew I did reply earlier but
seems
-> it
-> > -> did
-> > -> > >not
-> > -> > >-> >get posted either.
-> > -> > >-> >
-> > -> > >-> >The reason for the change of prop was two fold, it was felt
that
-> the
-> > -> lack
-> > -> > >of
-> > -> > >-> >performance may be due in part to the prop not being too
-> efficient
-> > -> for
-> > -> > >the
-> > -> > >-> >job given the assumed marginal power available. The second
-> reason
-> > -> had to
-> > -> > >do
-> > -> > >-> >with alterations required to fit to my new cowling, but this
may
-> > have
-> > -> > >been
-> > -> > >-> >overcome now.
-> > -> > >-> >
-> > -> > >-> >It really comes down to the expensive of changing the pistons
-> for
-> > the
-> > -> > >higher
-> > -> > >-> >hp. Reading your account of flying the 118hp makes me want to
-> do it
-> > -> even
-> > -> > >-> >more! I do like the idea of having a bit in reserve for when
-> > needed.
-> > -> > >-> >
-> > -> > >-> >What I did not want to do was to buy a new sensenich prop at 48
-> > pitch
-> > -> > >only to
-> > -> > >-> >find that I created problems elsewhere and should have done
-> > something
-> > -> > >-> >differently at this stage.
-> > -> > >-> >
-> > -> > >-> >Regards,
-> > -> > >-> >
-> > -> > >-> >Bob
-> > -> > >-> >
-> > -> > >-> >On 4/29/2003 11:54 PM, APAT@ISTAR.CA wrote to MURPHY-REBEL:
-> > -> > >-> >
-> > -> > >-> >-> From <apat@istar.ca> Sun, 27 Apr 2003 19:02:45 -0800 remote
-> from
-> > -> > >dcsol.com
-> > -> > >-> >-> Received: by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP Router v5.6.450.61)
-> > -> > >-> >-> for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com; Sun, 27 Apr 2003
-> > -> 19:02:45 -0800
-> > -> > >-> >-> Received: from nasc-out-1.nasc.inter.net ([203.176.60.253])
-> > -> > >-> >EHLO=app6.nasc.inter.net
-> > -> > >-> >-> by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP v5.6.450.61) with SMTP
-> > -> > >-> >-> id 164454453; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 19:02:44 -0800
-> > -> > >-> >-> Received: from 2cust32.tnt23.toronto.on.da.uu.net
-> > ([64.10.100.32])
-> > -> > >-> >-> by app6.nasc.inter.net with smtp (Exim 3.34 #1)
-> > -> > >-> >-> id 199yup-0001IN-00
-> > -> > >-> >-> for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:02:52 -0400
-> > -> > >-> >-> X-Sender: crs1188@pop.ca.inter.net
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-> > -> > >-> >-> To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
-> > -> > >-> >-> From: Bob Patterson <apat@istar.ca>
-> > -> > >-> >-> Subject: Re: lycoming 0-235
-> > -> > >-> >-> Message-Id: <E199yup-0001IN-00@app6.nasc.inter.net>
-> > -> > >-> >-> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:02:52 -0400
-> > -> > >-> >->
-> > -> > >-> >->
-> > -> > >-> >-> Hi Bob ! (good name !!! ;-) )
-> > -> > >-> >->
-> > -> > >-> >-> I assume you're dumping the Warp Drive because of
the
-> > -> > >-> >-> blade cracking problems .... Going to high-compression
-> pistons
-> > -> > >-> >-> will really aggravate this problem, so the W-D is out !!
-> > -> > >-> >->
-> > -> > >-> >-> 72 x 48 doesn't sound tooooo fine - you should still
-> get
-> > -> > >-> >-> about 90 - 95 mph. I never saw more than 95 cruise with my
-> > -> O-235-C2C
-> > -> > >-> >-> (100 hp - on a GOOD day !), and it dragged a pair of 1500
-> Amphibs
-> > -> > >-> >-> right across the country ! You shouldn't have any problem
-> > -> getting
-> > -> > >-> >-> a Rebel out of 1,100 feet of grass, with clear approaches,
-> > -> > >-> >-> as long as you're not heavily loaded. The fat DICO or
-> Carlyle
-> > -> 800-6
-> > -> > >-> >-> tires from Murphy really help on soft ground ...
-> > -> > >-> >->
-> > -> > >-> >-> I suggest just trying the prop - it can always be
-> > -> re-pitched
-> > -> > >-> >-> if needed. If the engine's running good, and you like to
run
-> > -> > >-> >-> mogas, by all means, don't change it..... save the money
for
-> > -> > >-> >-> FLYING !!!! ;-) :-)
-> > -> > >-> >->
-> > -> > >-> >-> I have flown a Rebel with the 118 Hp Lycoming
-> O-235-L2C,
-> > -> > >-> >-> metal prop, and it was great - solid 110 mph cruise, and
good
-> > -> climb.
-> > -> > >-> >-> MUCH better than my old C2C, rated at 108 hp.....
-> > -> > >-> >->
-> > -> > >-> >-> I second Ralph's opinion - the Elite nosewheel would
-> > -> > >-> >-> not be good on rough or soft fields. (Curious why you ask
-> ???)
-> > -> > >-> >->
-> > -> > >-> >-> .....bobp
-> > -> > >-> >->
-> > -> > >->
-> > ->
-> >-> -------------------------------------orig.-----------------------------
-> > -> > >-> >-> At 11:17 AM 4/27/03 -0800, you wrote:
-> > -> > >-> >-> >I have a lyc 0-235 derated to 105hp turning a 68" 3 bladed
-> warp
-> > -> > >drive. I
-> > -> > >-> >am
-> > -> > >-> >-> >looking at changing to a sensenich 72-ck-0-48 (as discussed
-> with
-> > -> > >-> >sensenich.
-> > -> > >-> >-> >My problem is that although this prop may get me out of the
-> > small
-> > -> > >field
-> > -> > >-> >-> >(390yds) it wont give me much cruise speed. Being rated for
-> > 105hp
-> > -> at
-> > -> > >-> >2400rpm
-> > -> > >-> >-> >does not leave much room. I am comtemplating having the
-> engine
-> > -> re-
-> > -> > >rated
-> > -> > >-> >back
-> > -> > >-> >-> >to 118hp but am getting confused as to the benefits of
doing
-> > this
-> > -> or
-> > -> > >-> >changing
-> > -> > >-> >-> >the prop??? Any advice welcomed. The engine only has
-> 200hrs
-> > -> smoh so
-> > -> > >I
-> > -> > >-> >am
-> > -> > >-> >-> >somewhat reluctant to change it.
-> > -> > >-> >-> >
-> > -> > >-> >-> >
-> > -> > >-> >-> >Regards,
-> > -> > >-> >-> >
-> > -> > >-> >-> >Bob
-> > -> > >-> >-> >
-> > -> > >-> >-> >
-> > -> > >-> >->
-> > -> >*--------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

I reiterate that this is a major cause of your performance problem. IF you
only get 2100 STATIC (when tied to a tree), using a Warp Drive propellor,
then she ain't going to go nowhere off that short field except maybe the end
in a ball!

Repitch the propellor so you get 2400 RPM STATIC. Doing so you should see
about 2550 on climb out and I doubt you will be able to exceed 2700 let
alone 2800. Then play with it to fine tune from there! If you're not happy
with take off performance go finer yet and if she is getting off the ground
okay and lacking cruise speed add a bit of pitch back into the propellor.

I also suggest that you measure your propellor degrees right at the end of
the tip if you have the square blade ends so it's easy to make sure they are
all the same. It's also easier to pitch them on a flat surface by tracing
one blade profile and the hub and picking the prop up and setting each blade
into the tracing. This takes any surface irregularities/slant etc out of the
equation and guarantees they all get set the same pitch. If you know that
your propellor is currently good for identical pitch then pull it off and
measure the current pitch (will sitting in the tracing) before loosening
anything. You need to take about 3+ degrees out of that propellor to get the
RPM up to 2400. I found each degree pitch changed my 100HP by approximately
70 RPM's.

On my 100HP engine, mine was pitched 8 1/2* and it gave me 2310 Static and
in full power level flight it could only obtain 2550RPM. This gave me
100MPH at full power and 90MPH was typical cruise at 2400RPM.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <rebel@dcsol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 3:48 AM
Subject: Re: lycoming 0-235

Hi Wayne,

I take on board and accept what you are saying and it certainly makes alot
more sense to try and play with what I got before spending any monies only

to

find little or no improvement.

Am I right in thinking that if I pitch the prop to achieve the 2800rpm

then

it is going to be quite fine (it is 11.5 now, measured 4" in from the tip

and

achieves the 2100(ish) static rpm. I accept that I will climb out like a
scaled cat but when I throttle back in the cruise, say 2300rpm, then I am
still going to be turing a very finely pitched prop (save for the twisting
effect) is this going to have a significant negative effect on

performance.

I understand the analogy given earlier about the bike and the different
gears. I think I will be pedalling a mile a minute in the cruise but

gettig

nowhere. Just a thought.

I will definately play around with the pitch etc before doing anything,

sound

advice.

A further thought, my understanding is that the L2C is rated for
105/112/115/118 hp at 2400/2600/2700/2800 rpm. The hp is governed by the
prop specified for the aircraft presumably to prevent exceeding design
limitations. Now this is all given that they have standard 8.5:1 pistons
(this maybe where I start to go wrong) so in this case you could wind up

the

engine to 2800rpm and produce 118hp but then throttle back and accept less
hp. Now remove the std pistons and install the 108hp pistons and the

whole

ball game changes. Even by winding up the engine to 2800rpm you will not

get

the 118hp output. You will be reving it away but no extra thrust being
developed.

I will check my flap settings again because I am certain mine go down to a
barn door 30degrees. I will certainly try the 18degree inital setting to

get

airborne then lose a notch.

Thanks,

Bob

On 5/1/2003 11:33 PM, OIFA@IRISHFIELD.ON.CA wrote to MURPHY-REBEL:

-> From <oifa@irishfield.on.ca> Thu, 01 May 2003 13:26:39 -0800 remote

from

dcsol.com
-> Received: by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP Router v5.6.450.61)
-> for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com; Thu, 01 May 2003 13:26:39 -0800
-> Received: from diablo.csolve.net ([207.61.27.158])

EHLO=diablo.csolve.net

-> by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP v5.6.450.61) with SMTP
-> id 184330000; Thu, 01 May 2003 13:26:29 -0800
-> Received: from barrie-dialport-216.209.18.175.csolve.net

([216.209.18.175]

helo=celeron266a)
-> by diablo.csolve.net with smtp (Exim 4.10)
-> id 19BLZg-0006rN-00
-> for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com; Thu, 01 May 2003 17:26:43 -0400
-> Message-ID: <002101c31027$b68ae230$e401910a@celeron266a>
-> From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
-> To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
-> References: <E19BG3C-0002E3-00@app5.nasc.inter.net>
-> Subject: Re: lycoming 0-235
-> Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 17:22:02 -0400
-> Organization: O'Shea's Irish Field Aviation
-> X-Orig-MIME-Version: 1.0
-> X-Orig-Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
-> X-Orig-Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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-> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
-> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700
-> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700
->
-> Bob, I echo Bob Patterson there! Take some pitch out of that WD and run

the

-> shit out of it!! I am speaking from experience here as I told you

before I

-> had the O-235-C model on my Rebel originally and it was only

100HP@2600RPM.

-> When I changed from my wood prop to the WD (3BLADE x 70") I was already

on

-> skis and tried setting the prop pitch to give a similar 2250 RPM

"static

-> tied to a tree" that you would with a metal propellor. The airplane at

full

-> power would just barely move in the snow and I thought I had wasted a

big

-> chunk of change buying the WDrive. I then repitched to get 2450 to 2475
-> static. At that pitch it jumped out of the snow and climbed at approx
-> 1400FPM (flight weight about 1400lbs). Even with this high of a static

RPM

I
-> could not readline past the 2600RPM unless I stuck it in a dive! The WD
-> seems to twist while in flight and gets a little coarser once you start
-> bitting air, sorta like a constant speed prop.
->
-> Knock on wood, my 70" WD is still crack free after 6 years. 2 1/2 of

them

on
-> the O-235 and 3 1/2 using the same propellor on my O-320-C2A x 150HP.
->
-> Try playing with the prop before you spend any money on the engine. If

it

-> was originally a 118HP engine then it has no internal reason why you

can't

-> use 2800RPM for take off (5 minutes) and 2700 continuous.
->
-> As for the flaps, if the stick is centered they indeed only go down 18*
-> (well you can sneak it to 23* actually). When you move the stick

left/right

-> they indeed go further down so the sucker will turn, but you should

have

-> about three notches set at 6*/12*/18* or at the most 7*/15*/23*. I

always

-> use full flaps when on skis to help lift me up out of the snow. Same

thing

-> applies in heavy grass etc or a short field to get her off the ground,

then

-> dump a notch for climb out.
->
-> Cheers,
-> Wayne
->
-> ----- Original Message -----
-> From: "Bob Patterson" <apat@istar.ca>
-> To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
-> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 11:32 AM
-> Subject: Re: lycoming 0-235
->
->
-> >
-> > Hi Bob !
-> >
-> > Adjusting your W-D to give you about 2,500 (+ ?) static will
-> > at least tell you if you're going the right way ....
-> >
-> > If that does improve your takeoff, then you could feel better
-> > about going to the Sensenich. It's probably a good decision.
-> >
-> > The flapperons on the Rebel produce more lift than drag,
-> > especially at low speeds. I always take off (and land) with full

flap,

-> > as this reduces the ground roll, and the speed. You can drop to
-> > 2 notches for climb, once out of ground effect - some playing around
-> > will find the best climb setting... it might even be one notch,
-> > with the O-235...
-> >
-> > .....bobp
-> >
-> > -----------------------------------orig.-----------------------------
-> > At 11:34 PM 4/30/03 -0800, you wrote:
-> > >Hi Bobp,
-> > >
-> > >Thanks for the reply,
-> > >
-> > >Sounds like the wd probably is on the short side, WD themselves said
-> 'about'
-> > >68 or 70, I was working on the premise that 72" on a 2 blade may be
-> similar
-> > >to a the thrust available from a 68" 3 blade, but truth is I do not
know!
-> I
-> > >suppose what is important is the area that the thrust is actually

out

and
-> > >beyond the cowling, and the farther out the faster the tip must be
going.
-> > >The blades on the wd are not very deep across so this prob has an
adverse
-> > >effect as well.
-> > >
-> > >On takeoff I have never tried full flap but, have limited it 10

degrees,

-> I
-> > >would have thought full flap would also increased the drag

considerably

-> and
-> > >defeat the object????
-> > >
-> > >Thanks for you input, I will keep you posted
-> > >
-> > >Bob
-> > >
-> > >
-> > >
-> > >On 4/30/2003 11:26 PM, APAT@ISTAR.CA wrote to MURPHY-REBEL:
-> > >
-> > >-> From <apat@istar.ca> Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:59:02 -0800 remote from
-> dcsol.com
-> > >-> Received: by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP Router v5.6.450.61)
-> > >-> for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com; Wed, 30 Apr 2003

17:59:02 -0800

-> > >-> Received: from nasc-out-1.nasc.inter.net ([203.176.60.253])
-> > >EHLO=app6.nasc.inter.net
-> > >-> by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP v5.6.450.61) with SMTP
-> > >-> id 114281171; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:59:00 -0800
-> > >-> Received: from 2cust75.tnt23.toronto.on.da.uu.net

([64.10.100.75])

-> > >-> by app6.nasc.inter.net with smtp (Exim 3.34 #1)
-> > >-> id 19B3Ln-0006ew-00
-> > >-> for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:59:07 -0400
-> > >-> X-Sender: crs1188@pop.ca.inter.net
-> > >-> X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
-> > >-> X-Orig-Mime-Version: 1.0
-> > >-> X-Orig-Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
-> > >-> To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
-> > >-> From: Bob Patterson <apat@istar.ca>
-> > >-> Subject: Re: lycoming 0-235
-> > >-> Message-Id: <E19B3Ln-0006ew-00@app6.nasc.inter.net>
-> > >-> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:59:07 -0400
-> > >->
-> > >->
-> > >-> You might be right about your prop - most folks here

have

-> > >-> used 70" or 72" diameter Warp Drives. The Rebel is pretty 'fat',
-> > >-> and that short prop might not be moving much air past it !
-> > >->
-> > >-> The original O-235 was 100/108 hp. - the 100 was max.

cont.,

-> > >-> and the 108 was for 5 min. at takeoff. I believe that was with
-> > >-> 6.5 to 1 pistons - about what you have. The HP rating was at
-> > >-> 2,600 rpm, as I recall - so it sounds like your W-D was also
-> > >-> pitched a bit too coarse ...
-> > >->
-> > >-> I do remember that the O-235 liked to be cruised fast,
-> > >-> and was happiest cruising all day at 2,450 rpm...... certainly
-> > >-> no danger of harm, as long as your temps are ok.
-> > >->
-> > >-> As for getting the Rebel off the ground, I assume you
-> > >-> are using full flap for takeoff ??? That's what the flap is
-> > >-> there for !!! You can back off to 2 notches after you are out
-> > >-> of ground effect - but using all of it should definitely get
-> > >-> you up faster.
-> > >->
-> > >-> If you still have the W-D, I would just tweak it finer
-> > >-> to give you at least 2,500 static rpm, and see if that helps...
-> > >-> If it does, then going to the Sensenich will likely be a
-> > >-> "Good Thing"(tm). ;-) :-)
-> > >->
-> > >-> Keep us posted ! Good luck !
-> > >->
-> > >-> ....bobp
-> > >->
-> >
->
-> ---------------------------------orig.---------------------------------
-
-> --
-> > >-> At 12:02 AM 4/30/03 -0800, you wrote:
-> > >-> >Hi Bob,
-> > >-> >
-> > >-> >Thanks for the reply, as with Drew I did reply earlier but seems

it

-> did
-> > >not
-> > >-> >get posted either.
-> > >-> >
-> > >-> >The reason for the change of prop was two fold, it was felt that

the

-> lack
-> > >of
-> > >-> >performance may be due in part to the prop not being too

efficient

-> for
-> > >the
-> > >-> >job given the assumed marginal power available. The second

reason

-> had to
-> > >do
-> > >-> >with alterations required to fit to my new cowling, but this may
have
-> > >been
-> > >-> >overcome now.
-> > >-> >
-> > >-> >It really comes down to the expensive of changing the pistons

for

the
-> > >higher
-> > >-> >hp. Reading your account of flying the 118hp makes me want to

do it

-> even
-> > >-> >more! I do like the idea of having a bit in reserve for when
needed.
-> > >-> >
-> > >-> >What I did not want to do was to buy a new sensenich prop at 48
pitch
-> > >only to
-> > >-> >find that I created problems elsewhere and should have done
something
-> > >-> >differently at this stage.
-> > >-> >
-> > >-> >Regards,
-> > >-> >
-> > >-> >Bob
-> > >-> >
-> > >-> >On 4/29/2003 11:54 PM, APAT@ISTAR.CA wrote to MURPHY-REBEL:
-> > >-> >
-> > >-> >-> From <apat@istar.ca> Sun, 27 Apr 2003 19:02:45 -0800 remote

from

-> > >dcsol.com
-> > >-> >-> Received: by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP Router v5.6.450.61)
-> > >-> >-> for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com; Sun, 27 Apr 2003
-> 19:02:45 -0800
-> > >-> >-> Received: from nasc-out-1.nasc.inter.net ([203.176.60.253])
-> > >-> >EHLO=app6.nasc.inter.net
-> > >-> >-> by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP v5.6.450.61) with SMTP
-> > >-> >-> id 164454453; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 19:02:44 -0800
-> > >-> >-> Received: from 2cust32.tnt23.toronto.on.da.uu.net
([64.10.100.32])
-> > >-> >-> by app6.nasc.inter.net with smtp (Exim 3.34 #1)
-> > >-> >-> id 199yup-0001IN-00
-> > >-> >-> for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com; Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:02:52 -0400
-> > >-> >-> X-Sender: crs1188@pop.ca.inter.net
-> > >-> >-> X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
-> > >-> >-> X-Orig-Mime-Version: 1.0
-> > >-> >-> X-Orig-Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
-> > >-> >-> To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
-> > >-> >-> From: Bob Patterson <apat@istar.ca>
-> > >-> >-> Subject: Re: lycoming 0-235
-> > >-> >-> Message-Id: <E199yup-0001IN-00@app6.nasc.inter.net>
-> > >-> >-> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:02:52 -0400
-> > >-> >->
-> > >-> >->
-> > >-> >-> Hi Bob ! (good name !!! ;-) )
-> > >-> >->
-> > >-> >-> I assume you're dumping the Warp Drive because of the
-> > >-> >-> blade cracking problems .... Going to high-compression

pistons

-> > >-> >-> will really aggravate this problem, so the W-D is out !!
-> > >-> >->
-> > >-> >-> 72 x 48 doesn't sound tooooo fine - you should still

get

-> > >-> >-> about 90 - 95 mph. I never saw more than 95 cruise with my
-> O-235-C2C
-> > >-> >-> (100 hp - on a GOOD day !), and it dragged a pair of 1500

Amphibs

-> > >-> >-> right across the country ! You shouldn't have any problem
-> getting
-> > >-> >-> a Rebel out of 1,100 feet of grass, with clear approaches,
-> > >-> >-> as long as you're not heavily loaded. The fat DICO or

Carlyle

-> 800-6
-> > >-> >-> tires from Murphy really help on soft ground ...
-> > >-> >->
-> > >-> >-> I suggest just trying the prop - it can always be
-> re-pitched
-> > >-> >-> if needed. If the engine's running good, and you like to run
-> > >-> >-> mogas, by all means, don't change it..... save the money for
-> > >-> >-> FLYING !!!! ;-) :-)
-> > >-> >->
-> > >-> >-> I have flown a Rebel with the 118 Hp Lycoming

O-235-L2C,

-> > >-> >-> metal prop, and it was great - solid 110 mph cruise, and good
-> climb.
-> > >-> >-> MUCH better than my old C2C, rated at 108 hp.....
-> > >-> >->
-> > >-> >-> I second Ralph's opinion - the Elite nosewheel would
-> > >-> >-> not be good on rough or soft fields. (Curious why you ask

???)

-> > >-> >->
-> > >-> >-> .....bobp
-> > >-> >->
-> > >->
->
-> -------------------------------------orig.-----------------------------
-> > >-> >-> At 11:17 AM 4/27/03 -0800, you wrote:
-> > >-> >-> >I have a lyc 0-235 derated to 105hp turning a 68" 3 bladed

warp

-> > >drive. I
-> > >-> >am
-> > >-> >-> >looking at changing to a sensenich 72-ck-0-48 (as discussed

with

-> > >-> >sensenich.
-> > >-> >-> >My problem is that although this prop may get me out of the
small
-> > >field
-> > >-> >-> >(390yds) it wont give me much cruise speed. Being rated for
105hp
-> at
-> > >-> >2400rpm
-> > >-> >-> >does not leave much room. I am comtemplating having the

engine

-> re-
-> > >rated
-> > >-> >back
-> > >-> >-> >to 118hp but am getting confused as to the benefits of doing
this
-> or
-> > >-> >changing
-> > >-> >-> >the prop??? Any advice welcomed. The engine only has

200hrs

-> smoh so
-> > >I
-> > >-> >am
-> > >-> >-> >somewhat reluctant to change it.
-> > >-> >-> >
-> > >-> >-> >
-> > >-> >-> >Regards,
-> > >-> >-> >
-> > >-> >-> >Bob
-> > >-> >-> >
-> > >-> >-> >
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[bransom]

-> Bob, I echo Bob Patterson there! Take some pitch out of that WD and run the
-> shit out of it!! I am speaking from experience here as I told you before I
-> had the O-235-C model on my Rebel originally and it was only 100HP@2600RPM.
-> When I changed from my wood prop to the WD (3BLADE x 70") I was already on
-> skis and tried setting the prop pitch to give a similar 2250 RPM "static
-> tied to a tree" that you would with a metal propellor. The airplane at full
-> power would just barely move in the snow and I thought I had wasted a big
-> chunk of change buying the WDrive. I then repitched to get 2450 to 2475
-> static. At that pitch it jumped out of the snow and climbed at approx
-> 1400FPM (flight weight about 1400lbs). Even with this high of a static RPM I
-> could not readline past the 2600RPM unless I stuck it in a dive! The WD
-> seems to twist while in flight and gets a little coarser once you start
-> bitting air, sorta like a constant speed prop.

Wayne and others...
I used to think the the Warp props twisted too -- but in fact I think I made
this up partly because of the "warp" name implication. Those blades are darn
stiff!! The reason I came to believe for the 'almost constant speed' behavior
is that at slower speeds, some portion of the blades start to stall just a bit
and therefore unload, allowing higher rpm ala almost constant speed. At
higher speeds the blades are doing mostly laminar work, and therefore grabbing
as much air as possible. Some of the aerodynamic basis for this may be in the
very short cord along the whole blade, compared to other props
-Ben Ransom


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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Was the Warp Drive blade on a Warp Drive hub, or one of NSI's ???

----- Original Message -----
From: <Legeorgen@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: lycoming 0-235

Hi Walter,

I know of a Wdrive that did fail and separated from an IO240 on a Kitfox

in

flight. It broke the engine mount and the pilot said he thought the whole
plane was going to disintegrate. I personally would have better piece of

mind

behind a Sensenich on a Lycoming. I love the Wdrive on my Rotax 912S,
however. My 2 cents.

Bruce 357R

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[Walter Klatt]

Yes, Bruce, I also would be very, very interested in
any details on that failure. This would be the first
inflight WD failure that I have heard of, if it is
indeed a WD factory hub. I know there have been
failures of the non WD hubs. Please keep us posted on
this one. Thanks.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 5:43 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: lycoming 0-235


Was the Warp Drive blade on a Warp Drive
hub, or one of NSI's ???

----- Original Message -----
From: <Legeorgen@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: lycoming 0-235

Hi Walter,

I know of a Wdrive that did fail and

separated from an IO240 on a Kitfox
in

flight. It broke the engine mount and the

pilot said he thought the whole

plane was going to disintegrate. I

personally would have better piece of
mind

behind a Sensenich on a Lycoming. I love

the Wdrive on my Rotax 912S,

however. My 2 cents.

Bruce 357R

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[Legeorgen]

Hi Walter,

I know of a Wdrive that did fail and separated from an IO240 on a Kitfox in
flight. It broke the engine mount and the pilot said he thought the whole
plane was going to disintegrate. I personally would have better piece of mind
behind a Sensenich on a Lycoming. I love the Wdrive on my Rotax 912S,
however. My 2 cents.

Bruce 357R



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[Legeorgen]

Hi Wayne,

I'm almost positive it was on a Wdrive hub, but it's possible it was an NSI.
I know they had problems in the past. This was several years ago.

The pilot has since died in a terrible crash while he was flying to close to
the ground on a high speed crash...while his brother watched the whole thing!



Bruce 357R



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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Guess you can't ask him to clarify then aye! Seems that's what gets pilots
the most! Show off fly bys or the incredible high angle climb out after a
high speed run to do so, and they forget to lower the nose when they run out
of momentum with the stall/spin result!

Wayne


----- Original Message -----
From: <Legeorgen@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: lycoming 0-235

Hi Wayne,

I'm almost positive it was on a Wdrive hub, but it's possible it was an

NSI.

I know they had problems in the past. This was several years ago.

The pilot has since died in a terrible crash while he was flying to close

to

the ground on a high speed crash...while his brother watched the whole

thing!

Bruce 357R

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[Legeorgen]

Wayne,

Ray cartwheel his Kitfox as he dragged a wing tip on a tight turn at 140 MPH,
going around his brothers house. There wasn't much left after that. He loved
to fly that way and his brother wrote on his tombstone "he died doing what he
loved." I guess it eventually caught up with him.

Bruce 357R



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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

It's sad Bruce, but unfortunately predicatible as well and I have some that
I'm waiting for to get "caught" as well!

----- Original Message -----
From: <Legeorgen@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: lycoming 0-235

Wayne,

Ray cartwheel his Kitfox as he dragged a wing tip on a tight turn at 140

MPH,

going around his brothers house. There wasn't much left after that. He

loved

to fly that way and his brother wrote on his tombstone "he died doing what

he

loved." I guess it eventually caught up with him.

Bruce 357R

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