Skylight holes - Today's "From the Hanger"

Walter Klatt · Post by **Walter Klatt** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:59 pm

Wayne, I have a question about those skylight cracks.
Did this plane have the edges rolled or flanged? It
sort of looked like that as best I could tell from the
pics. Were you planning to also roll the edges again
after the doubler?

Also, do you know what is causing those star cracks on
the windshield? Is it flexing?

As it happens, I just got a new windshield from MAM,
too. I don't plan on putting it in right away, but
wanted to have one on hand if I needed it. I do have a
couple of cracks on the bottoms where I had drilled
bolt holes to attach. Mine was an early install,
whereas I understand now, that you make them float
without any bolt attachments which is what I will do
next time.

I think floats put quite a bit of extra stress around
the windshield area. I saw one of my cracks happen
during a rough water landing. There are about 2 seconds
of beating that you have to endure just as you come
down from the step in big waves, or at least I haven't
figured out yet how to avoid that.

So sooner or later I will be replacing my windshield.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 5:36 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Skylight holes - Today's "From the Hanger"

Another "from the hanger" for you!!

Pulled Howard's windshield today to install
a new one, since his is full of
little star cracks that show up when flying
into the sun.

Found that both of his forward skylight
holes (that are under the windshield
area) have cracks growing out of each corner
of the holes. Passenger side
has 4 cracks and the pilot side 3.

I posted two pics to Rebel - Fuselage.

My plan of attack is to fabricate .025
doubler rings to fit to the underside
of these skylight holes (just like the
backing plates I use for all the
other holes with Lexan in them) and rivet
same with C/S rivets to insure
windshield clearance without rubbing on any
rivet heads.

I WOULD HIGHLY SUGGEST TO ANYONE THAT IS
BUILDING MURPHY METAL
(Rebel/Elite/SR/Moose) to do these doublers
now, before you do your paint
job and install your windshield.

If this has happened to a low time Rebel on
floats, then it's only
elementary that it is going to happen to the
entire "Rebel" line sooner or
later in your flight "enjoyment"! Easier to
nip it before they start!

Cheers,
Wayne

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Wayne G. O'Shea · Post by **Wayne G. O'Shea** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:59 pm

Another "from the hanger" for you!!

Pulled Howard's windshield today to install a new one, since his is full of
little star cracks that show up when flying into the sun.

Found that both of his forward skylight holes (that are under the windshield
area) have cracks growing out of each corner of the holes. Passenger side
has 4 cracks and the pilot side 3.

I posted two pics to Rebel - Fuselage.

My plan of attack is to fabricate .025 doubler rings to fit to the underside
of these skylight holes (just like the backing plates I use for all the
other holes with Lexan in them) and rivet same with C/S rivets to insure
windshield clearance without rubbing on any rivet heads.

I WOULD HIGHLY SUGGEST TO ANYONE THAT IS BUILDING MURPHY METAL
(Rebel/Elite/SR/Moose) to do these doublers now, before you do your paint
job and install your windshield.

If this has happened to a low time Rebel on floats, then it's only
elementary that it is going to happen to the entire "Rebel" line sooner or
later in your flight "enjoyment"! Easier to nip it before they start!

Cheers,
Wayne

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Brian Lawson · Post by **Brian Lawson** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:59 pm

Hey Wayne,

In the photos it looks like the cut-out had a small soft (largish rad)
break formed (with pliers?) all the way around. Any chance this had a
causal effect?

We did our eyebrows "flat edged" and have made up flat doublers, but
only out of 20thou I believe. Do you think that will do OK?

Any idea what caused the crazing on Howards windscreen?

TIA.

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Windsor, Ontario.

ps...for the disbelievers, the wings with flaps and ailerons and fuel
tanks are back on for the last time before removal to paint, the panel
is ready to drop in, and the rush is on to fly CG-RFP to Oshkosh this
year (2003).
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:35:59 -0400, you wrote:

Another "from the hanger" for you!!

Pulled Howard's windshield today to install a new one, since his is full

of

little star cracks that show up when flying into the sun.

Found that both of his forward skylight holes (that are under the

windshield

area) have cracks growing out of each corner of the holes. Passenger

side

has 4 cracks and the pilot side 3.

I posted two pics to Rebel - Fuselage.

My plan of attack is to fabricate .025 doubler rings to fit to the

underside

of these skylight holes (just like the backing plates I use for all the
other holes with Lexan in them) and rivet same with C/S rivets to insure
windshield clearance without rubbing on any rivet heads.

I WOULD HIGHLY SUGGEST TO ANYONE THAT IS BUILDING MURPHY METAL
(Rebel/Elite/SR/Moose) to do these doublers now, before you do your

paint

job and install your windshield.

If this has happened to a low time Rebel on floats, then it's only
elementary that it is going to happen to the entire "Rebel" line sooner

or

later in your flight "enjoyment"! Easier to nip it before they start!

Cheers,
Wayne

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Wayne G. O'Shea · Post by **Wayne G. O'Shea** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:59 pm

Hi Brian and Walter!

Yes the skylight holes have the edge rolled down using a rolling tool (two
ball bearings on a steel plate) that I use on all skin edges so they sit
tight. Without rolling the edges down on the forward skylight hole I found
that the rearmost edge would sit proud and chafe into the windshields.
Rolling the edge helps the hole keep the curved contour of the roof skin, as
it adds some strength around the hole the same way as all the wing rib
lightening holes are "flanged". I don't think this added to the stress
factor to start any cracks, as some cracks are right in the corner where
it's a possibility yet others are on the straight stretch just before the
corner where there wouldn't be any extra stress from rolling the edge. If
you put a .020 doubler around you front ones then you should be great. These
cracks showing up just "stress" the fact that the inspectors try to drill
into our heads........... that EVERY hole in a skin MUST have a doubler
around it! My inspector made me throw a doubler around the little trim servo
rod slot in the elevator to allow preclose. Guess I should have carried this
advise to the bigger holes I cut as well no matter what the manual spells
out.

Walter I am just going to add doubler rings inboard of the rolled down edge
to make things easy, I think, or I may trim the rolled edge off and leave
flush with the new doubler. Haven't decided yet and all depends on which way
I can get way with the least paint work!!

As for Howard's windshield starting to craze, I guess just 5 years of
sitting in the sun at the lake for about 5 months per year. A windshield
cover (if you can get a good one made that doesn't move around in the wind -
as that causes even worse damage) might be a good investment. We've been
putting off pulling this windshield for 3 years as it's had a small crack in
the pilots top wings root cutout that has grown about 1 1/2" each year and
that's the real reason <I> pulled it out. Howard didn't like the craze
prisms when landing late in the evening with the sun on the nose either, so
that's why he wanted it out!!

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lawson" <lawsonb@mnsi.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: Skylight holes - Today's "From the Hanger"

Hey Wayne,

In the photos it looks like the cut-out had a small soft (largish rad)
break formed (with pliers?) all the way around. Any chance this had a
causal effect?

We did our eyebrows "flat edged" and have made up flat doublers, but
only out of 20thou I believe. Do you think that will do OK?

Any idea what caused the crazing on Howards windscreen?

TIA.

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Windsor, Ontario.

ps...for the disbelievers, the wings with flaps and ailerons and fuel
tanks are back on for the last time before removal to paint, the panel
is ready to drop in, and the rush is on to fly CG-RFP to Oshkosh this
year (2003).
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:35:59 -0400, you wrote:

Another "from the hanger" for you!!

Pulled Howard's windshield today to install a new one, since his is full
of
little star cracks that show up when flying into the sun.

Found that both of his forward skylight holes (that are under the
windshield
area) have cracks growing out of each corner of the holes. Passenger
side
has 4 cracks and the pilot side 3.

I posted two pics to Rebel - Fuselage.

My plan of attack is to fabricate .025 doubler rings to fit to the
underside
of these skylight holes (just like the backing plates I use for all the
other holes with Lexan in them) and rivet same with C/S rivets to insure
windshield clearance without rubbing on any rivet heads.

I WOULD HIGHLY SUGGEST TO ANYONE THAT IS BUILDING MURPHY METAL
(Rebel/Elite/SR/Moose) to do these doublers now, before you do your
paint
job and install your windshield.

If this has happened to a low time Rebel on floats, then it's only
elementary that it is going to happen to the entire "Rebel" line sooner
or
later in your flight "enjoyment"! Easier to nip it before they start!

Cheers,
Wayne

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rickhm · Post by **rickhm** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:59 pm

Wayne,

I agree, but found a dremel very slow. for $20 I got a pneumatic version at Wall-mart. IT will spinn a 2" wheel and the time involved is LOTS less. You get the same cutting wheel action at nX the power. I then used a regular dremel for tight corners, final trim etc. FYI.... my .02.

Rick Muller

SR70

-------Original Message-------
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
Sent: 05/01/03 04:42 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Skylight holes - Today's "From the Hanger"

Posted 4 pics from fixing Howard's forward skylight holes....... to

Rebel -Fuselage. They show the doublers (.025) that I installed inside the
cabin roof. I used Sikaflex to help bond them to the original roof skin,
but
you could use Epoxy Primer or Proseal as well. I just happened to have the
tube open and sitting beside the airplane from fixing a float keel leak a
couple days ago. Hopefully the paints dry enough tomorrow to throw the new
rearward skylights back in tomorrow (figured if he was getting a new
windshield and the headliner was already out may as well get new top peep
holes) and then the new windshield can go in as well and she's off to the
lake.

While I'm typing I just want to reiterate that the ONLY method of trimming
the LP Aero Acrylic windshields that I recommend is the use of a "Dremel"
and an abrasive cutting wheel (ignore any other instructions that come
with
them!!). Makes trimming a breeze for a nice smooth edge that requires very
little if any sanding. The wheel doesn't catch etc like a bandsaw would
and
very quick and easy to use. New windshield ready for installation in 45
minutes and this included making a paper pattern off the old one, trimming
all the edges, filing and sanding to clean up any nicks, trimming back the
waxed plastic to clear retainers etc and giving a quick cleaning to get
rid
of the static before installation.

Cheers,
Wayne G. O'Shea
oifa@irishfield.on.ca
<a target=_blank
href="http://www.irishfield.on.ca">www.irishfield.on.ca</a>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: Skylight holes - Today's "From the Hanger"

Hi Brian and Walter!

Yes the skylight holes have the edge rolled down using a rolling tool

(two

ball bearings on a steel plate) that I use on all skin edges so they sit
tight. Without rolling the edges down on the forward skylight hole I

found

that the rearmost edge would sit proud and chafe into the windshields.
Rolling the edge helps the hole keep the curved contour of the roof

skin,
as

it adds some strength around the hole the same way as all the wing rib
lightening holes are "flanged". I don't think this added to the stress
factor to start any cracks, as some cracks are right in the corner where
it's a possibility yet others are on the straight stretch just before

the

corner where there wouldn't be any extra stress from rolling the edge.

If

you put a .020 doubler around you front ones then you should be great.

These

cracks showing up just "stress" the fact that the inspectors try to

drill

into our heads........... that EVERY hole in a skin MUST have a doubler
around it! My inspector made me throw a doubler around the little trim

servo

rod slot in the elevator to allow preclose. Guess I should have carried

this

advise to the bigger holes I cut as well no matter what the manual

spells

out.

Walter I am just going to add doubler rings inboard of the rolled down

edge

to make things easy, I think, or I may trim the rolled edge off and

leave

flush with the new doubler. Haven't decided yet and all depends on which

way

I can get way with the least paint work!!

As for Howard's windshield starting to craze, I guess just 5 years of
sitting in the sun at the lake for about 5 months per year. A windshield
cover (if you can get a good one made that doesn't move around in the

wind -

as that causes even worse damage) might be a good investment. We've been
putting off pulling this windshield for 3 years as it's had a small

crack
in

the pilots top wings root cutout that has grown about 1 1/2" each year

and

that's the real reason <I> pulled it out. Howard didn't like the craze
prisms when landing late in the evening with the sun on the nose either,

so

that's why he wanted it out!!

Cheers,

Wayne

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Wayne G. O'Shea · Post by **Wayne G. O'Shea** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:59 pm

Posted 4 pics from fixing Howard's forward skylight holes....... to
Rebel -Fuselage. They show the doublers (.025) that I installed inside the
cabin roof. I used Sikaflex to help bond them to the original roof skin, but
you could use Epoxy Primer or Proseal as well. I just happened to have the
tube open and sitting beside the airplane from fixing a float keel leak a
couple days ago. Hopefully the paints dry enough tomorrow to throw the new
rearward skylights back in tomorrow (figured if he was getting a new
windshield and the headliner was already out may as well get new top peep
holes) and then the new windshield can go in as well and she's off to the
lake.

While I'm typing I just want to reiterate that the ONLY method of trimming
the LP Aero Acrylic windshields that I recommend is the use of a "Dremel"
and an abrasive cutting wheel (ignore any other instructions that come with
them!!). Makes trimming a breeze for a nice smooth edge that requires very
little if any sanding. The wheel doesn't catch etc like a bandsaw would and
very quick and easy to use. New windshield ready for installation in 45
minutes and this included making a paper pattern off the old one, trimming
all the edges, filing and sanding to clean up any nicks, trimming back the
waxed plastic to clear retainers etc and giving a quick cleaning to get rid
of the static before installation.

Cheers,
Wayne G. O'Shea
oifa@irishfield.on.ca
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: Skylight holes - Today's "From the Hanger"

Hi Brian and Walter!

Yes the skylight holes have the edge rolled down using a rolling tool (two
ball bearings on a steel plate) that I use on all skin edges so they sit
tight. Without rolling the edges down on the forward skylight hole I found
that the rearmost edge would sit proud and chafe into the windshields.
Rolling the edge helps the hole keep the curved contour of the roof skin,

as

it adds some strength around the hole the same way as all the wing rib
lightening holes are "flanged". I don't think this added to the stress
factor to start any cracks, as some cracks are right in the corner where
it's a possibility yet others are on the straight stretch just before the
corner where there wouldn't be any extra stress from rolling the edge. If
you put a .020 doubler around you front ones then you should be great.

These

cracks showing up just "stress" the fact that the inspectors try to drill
into our heads........... that EVERY hole in a skin MUST have a doubler
around it! My inspector made me throw a doubler around the little trim

servo

rod slot in the elevator to allow preclose. Guess I should have carried

this

advise to the bigger holes I cut as well no matter what the manual spells
out.

Walter I am just going to add doubler rings inboard of the rolled down

edge

to make things easy, I think, or I may trim the rolled edge off and leave
flush with the new doubler. Haven't decided yet and all depends on which

way

I can get way with the least paint work!!

As for Howard's windshield starting to craze, I guess just 5 years of
sitting in the sun at the lake for about 5 months per year. A windshield
cover (if you can get a good one made that doesn't move around in the

wind -

as that causes even worse damage) might be a good investment. We've been
putting off pulling this windshield for 3 years as it's had a small crack

in

the pilots top wings root cutout that has grown about 1 1/2" each year and
that's the real reason <I> pulled it out. Howard didn't like the craze
prisms when landing late in the evening with the sun on the nose either,

so

that's why he wanted it out!!

Cheers,
Wayne

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Wayne G. O'Shea · Post by **Wayne G. O'Shea** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:59 pm

The Dremel I have cuts through it as fast as I want to go and is easy to
hold in place without fear of it running away across the face of the acrylic
(maybe mines a little more powerful than the model you have? or I'm using a
different wheel?). Takes about a minute tops to go the entire width of the
top edge of the windshield, using a wheel that was worn down to about 1 1/4"
in diameter. I'm not in any bigger rush than that, when it comes to a $500
"piece" of acrylic, that generally takes 2 to 3 months to get a replacement
for from MAM if you screw up and another $100 in shipping!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <rickhm@mindspring.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 10:29 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Skylight holes - Today's "From the Hanger"

Wayne,

I agree, but found a dremel very slow. for $20 I got a pneumatic version

at Wall-mart. IT will spinn a 2" wheel and the time involved is LOTS less.
You get the same cutting wheel action at nX the power. I then used a
regular dremel for tight corners, final trim etc. FYI.... my .02.

Rick Muller

SR70

-------Original Message-------
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
Sent: 05/01/03 04:42 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Skylight holes - Today's "From the Hanger"

Posted 4 pics from fixing Howard's forward skylight holes....... to
Rebel -Fuselage. They show the doublers (.025) that I installed inside the
cabin roof. I used Sikaflex to help bond them to the original roof skin,
but
you could use Epoxy Primer or Proseal as well. I just happened to have the
tube open and sitting beside the airplane from fixing a float keel leak a
couple days ago. Hopefully the paints dry enough tomorrow to throw the new
rearward skylights back in tomorrow (figured if he was getting a new
windshield and the headliner was already out may as well get new top peep
holes) and then the new windshield can go in as well and she's off to the
lake.

While I'm typing I just want to reiterate that the ONLY method of trimming
the LP Aero Acrylic windshields that I recommend is the use of a "Dremel"
and an abrasive cutting wheel (ignore any other instructions that come
with
them!!). Makes trimming a breeze for a nice smooth edge that requires very
little if any sanding. The wheel doesn't catch etc like a bandsaw would
and
very quick and easy to use. New windshield ready for installation in 45
minutes and this included making a paper pattern off the old one, trimming
all the edges, filing and sanding to clean up any nicks, trimming back the
waxed plastic to clear retainers etc and giving a quick cleaning to get
rid
of the static before installation.

Cheers,
Wayne G. O'Shea
oifa@irishfield.on.ca
<a target=_blank
href="http://www.irishfield.on.ca">www.irishfield.on.ca</a>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: Skylight holes - Today's "From the Hanger"

Hi Brian and Walter!

Yes the skylight holes have the edge rolled down using a rolling tool
(two
ball bearings on a steel plate) that I use on all skin edges so they sit
tight. Without rolling the edges down on the forward skylight hole I
found
that the rearmost edge would sit proud and chafe into the windshields.
Rolling the edge helps the hole keep the curved contour of the roof
skin,
as
it adds some strength around the hole the same way as all the wing rib
lightening holes are "flanged". I don't think this added to the stress
factor to start any cracks, as some cracks are right in the corner where
it's a possibility yet others are on the straight stretch just before
the
corner where there wouldn't be any extra stress from rolling the edge.
If
you put a .020 doubler around you front ones then you should be great.
These
cracks showing up just "stress" the fact that the inspectors try to
drill
into our heads........... that EVERY hole in a skin MUST have a doubler
around it! My inspector made me throw a doubler around the little trim
servo
rod slot in the elevator to allow preclose. Guess I should have carried
this
advise to the bigger holes I cut as well no matter what the manual
spells
out.

Walter I am just going to add doubler rings inboard of the rolled down
edge
to make things easy, I think, or I may trim the rolled edge off and
leave
flush with the new doubler. Haven't decided yet and all depends on which
way
I can get way with the least paint work!!

As for Howard's windshield starting to craze, I guess just 5 years of
sitting in the sun at the lake for about 5 months per year. A windshield
cover (if you can get a good one made that doesn't move around in the
wind -
as that causes even worse damage) might be a good investment. We've been
putting off pulling this windshield for 3 years as it's had a small
crack
in
the pilots top wings root cutout that has grown about 1 1/2" each year
and
that's the real reason <I> pulled it out. Howard didn't like the craze
prisms when landing late in the evening with the sun on the nose either,
so
that's why he wanted it out!!

Cheers,

Wayne

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Drew Dalgleish · Post by **Drew Dalgleish** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:59 pm

While I'm typing I just want to reiterate that the ONLY method of trimming
the LP Aero Acrylic windshields that I recommend is the use of a "Dremel"
and an abrasive cutting wheel (ignore any other instructions that come with
them!!). Makes trimming a breeze for a nice smooth edge that requires very
little if any sanding. The wheel doesn't catch etc like a bandsaw would and
very quick and easy to use. New windshield ready for installation in 45
minutes and this included making a paper pattern off the old one, trimming
all the edges, filing and sanding to clean up any nicks, trimming back the
waxed plastic to clear retainers etc and giving a quick cleaning to get rid
of the static before installation.

Cheers,
Wayne G. O'Shea
oifa@irishfield.on.ca
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----

Hey Wayne
You should try a spokeshave or wood plane. It removes plastic amazingly
fast and leaves a nice clean edge.
Drew (I like quiet tools the best)
Drew Dalgleish

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