Split flap question

[LisaFly99]

To the group
Maybe Bob P. could answer this seeing how he's flown more Rebels than anybody
I know of. Is there anybody out there that has flown both flaperon style
Rebel and the split flap airelon style Rebel? Is it worth the extra weight
and complexity? Would Split flaps help performance on floats? I ask because I
have a friend who bought a partially built kit (one wing the elevator and
rudder complete ). And has asked me to help build the rest. It came with the
parts for a split flap option. I don't mind building it into the plane IF
it's worth the extra work and complexity, BUT if it doesn't enhance
performance and just adds 20+lbs then why do it?


Phil&Lisa Smith
N414D
#460R




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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

I know that Bob will throw in his $10 worth and here is my 2 cents worth.

I have flown both and NO/NO/NO/NO/NO/NO the split flap is not worth the
time, weight, money or anything else in regards to performance (IMHO).

You lose half your drag for short field landing, as you only have half the
flaps. The Rebel loses it's "on rails" feeling in tight corners with the
split flap, as opposed to full flaperons, and feels like the tail wants to
pass you in a tight turn.

The pro of split flaps is the lighter stick forces to roll/turn and of
course less rudder work required when flying full flaps. When full flaperons
are down you have to do alignment turns to the runway with rudder as there
isn't much difference that the airfoil changes when full flaperons are down
and you move the stick side to side. Once you get used to that you will
never go back. If you want it to fly like a "spam can" then split the
flaps!!!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <LisaFly99@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: Split flap question

To the group
Maybe Bob P. could answer this seeing how he's flown more Rebels than

anybody

I know of. Is there anybody out there that has flown both flaperon style
Rebel and the split flap airelon style Rebel? Is it worth the extra

weight

and complexity? Would Split flaps help performance on floats? I ask

because I

have a friend who bought a partially built kit (one wing the elevator and
rudder complete ). And has asked me to help build the rest. It came with

the

parts for a split flap option. I don't mind building it into the plane IF
it's worth the extra work and complexity, BUT if it doesn't enhance
performance and just adds 20+lbs then why do it?


Phil&Lisa Smith
N414D
#460R

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[Ian Donaldson]

G'day Bob


If you want some warmth why not come to the land down under.

Today the expected temperature is 41. That's Celsius!

Unfortunately OZ is in the grip of a major drought, and yesterday a bushfire
burned about 400 houses
and killed a number of people. And that was in Canberra, our Nations capitol
city.

Regards

Ian Donaldson

After that weather report from Walter .....


Would TOMORROW be too soon ??!!!! :-) :-)


(Shivering at -15 C, with a wind gusting to 52 ... )

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Let's wait 'till Wednesday!! Forcast is -35*C and gusting 50K! :>))

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <apat@istar.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 7:52 PM
Subject: Re: Re:Split flap question

After that weather report from Walter .....


Would TOMORROW be too soon ??!!!! :-) :-)


(Shivering at -15 C, with a wind gusting to 52 ... )
( = a wind chill of ___ !!! Get those brass monkeys inside !!)

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.----------------------------------
At 06:15 PM 1/19/03 -0500, you wrote:

SO!! When are we leaving for the West Coast Bob???

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <SWSLOANLK@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 5:45 PM
Subject: Re:Split flap question

Phil

IMHO I would not use the Murphy Split Flap system as it is a compromise

from

the standard flaperon setup. However with that said under the Rebel

Interior

section in the archives you will see my split flap floor mounted handle

and

the airelon droop & reflex handle extension. This setup allows me to

reflex

both the airelon & the flaps as well as drooping the airelons to 12

degrees

and providing 12, 25 and 40 degrees of flap extension.

With my airelons set at 12 degrees of droop and the flaps set at 25

degrees

my Rebel will get off the water one to two seconds faster than the

standard

rebel at it's max. flaperion setting as well as breaking one float

loose

from

the water quicker.

I have flown a number of standard Rebels and Elites and in( IMHO) I

have

not

given up any thing in performance or handling except for severe cross

wind

takeoff and landings with the airelons drooped to 12 degrees. With the
airelons in the neutral position in these conditions it handles just

like

the

standard Rebel only better.

In reading both Bob's and Waynes commits, I really belive they would

change

there opinions if they flew my Rebel, and the invitation is always open

to

them to do so.

Steve Sloan

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[Keith Oliver]

So what would be the pros and cons to make an Elite without the split and
what would be required ???
Thanks


Keith Oliver
Elite #654 TD
N654ME (reserved)
Farmingdale, Maine




-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 3:32 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Split flap question



Hi Mike !

While increasing the flap angle to 40 degrees might help
the descent situation, it could also rip his wing off !!! This
particular solution was raised years ago, and Mr. Murphy stated
emphatically that this was NOT "A Good Thing"(tm)" !!

The Elite can handle the extra drag because the wing design
was changed, with stronger pickups for drag loads, AND THREE flap
hanger brackets, not TWO, like the Rebel.

Several people have increased the droop angle of the flapperons
on the Rebel by a FEW (like 3-5) degrees for better descent - while
this does increase the load, it is probably ok if they limit their
max. flap speed. Of course, as always, it's an EXPERIMENTAL - you
can make your own choices on YOUR own airplane .... but it helps
to consider the risks !!

Personally, I would NOT recommend the split flaps, OR
going to 40 degrees with them.

.....bobp

---------------------------------orig.--------------------------------
At 06:14 PM 1/18/03 -0900, you wrote:

Hi Phil, as Wayne has already said, and I'm sure Bobp will (since he has
many times before), most people prefer the full flaperons. There is one
exception who is very happy with his split flaps... his secret is that he
didn't leave it in the stock configuration, he changed the flap throw to 40
degrees I believe... same as the Elite and SR/Moose. Maybe Steve will fill
in more details about his installation.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: <LisaFly99@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: Split flap question

To the group
Maybe Bob P. could answer this seeing how he's flown more Rebels than

anybody

I know of. Is there anybody out there that has flown both flaperon style
Rebel and the split flap airelon style Rebel? Is it worth the extra

weight

and complexity? Would Split flaps help performance on floats? I ask

because I

have a friend who bought a partially built kit (one wing the elevator and
rudder complete ). And has asked me to help build the rest. It came with

the

parts for a split flap option. I don't mind building it into the plane IF
it's worth the extra work and complexity, BUT if it doesn't enhance
performance and just adds 20+lbs then why do it?


Phil&Lisa Smith
N414D
#460R

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[Mike Davis]

Hi Phil, as Wayne has already said, and I'm sure Bobp will (since he has
many times before), most people prefer the full flaperons. There is one
exception who is very happy with his split flaps... his secret is that he
didn't leave it in the stock configuration, he changed the flap throw to 40
degrees I believe... same as the Elite and SR/Moose. Maybe Steve will fill
in more details about his installation.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: <LisaFly99@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: Split flap question

To the group
Maybe Bob P. could answer this seeing how he's flown more Rebels than

anybody

I know of. Is there anybody out there that has flown both flaperon style
Rebel and the split flap airelon style Rebel? Is it worth the extra

weight

and complexity? Would Split flaps help performance on floats? I ask

because I

have a friend who bought a partially built kit (one wing the elevator and
rudder complete ). And has asked me to help build the rest. It came with

the

parts for a split flap option. I don't mind building it into the plane IF
it's worth the extra work and complexity, BUT if it doesn't enhance
performance and just adds 20+lbs then why do it?


Phil&Lisa Smith
N414D
#460R

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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Phil !

Wayne beat me to it on this one, and I agree completely
with his comments ! If you want half the flap and half the aileron,
go ahead & split them !!! ;-)

My opinion is it definitely IS NOT worth the extra weight
and effort. Maybe some of you remember Geert Frank's comment
about his split-flap Rebel - "My Rebel is 'STO', but it sure isn't 'L' !"

Without the full span flapperons, it just doesn't come
down quickly and easily. The standard flapperons are pretty much a
"two-finger to pull down" effort, so I can't think of ANY reason to
have that huge, heavy iron handle that comes with the splits.
The split flap option is yet another of those marketing things
to answer customer's requests for ....
"Cessna did it so it MUST be good !" ;-) :-)

I know of a couple of fellows who tried the splits on floats
- they changed back to the flapperons within a few days ! Seems
the flapperons have a bit of slack that automatically raises &
lowers then in relation to speed - gives a kind of "auto-land"
for floats, and helps them get off the water faster !

The BIG loss with the split flaps is that you can no longer
use the advantage of NEGATIVE FLAPPERON - with 120 + HP, 2 notches
can increase your cruise by about 6 mph, AND you get a better ride
in rough air. The flapperons have the advantage of changing the
shape of the WHOLE airfoil, instead of just part of it. You wouldn't
believe the power (and drag !) of that vortex that comes off the end
of the split flaps !!!

.....bobp

------------------------------orig.----------------------------------
At 04:54 PM 1/18/03 EST, you wrote:

To the group
Maybe Bob P. could answer this seeing how he's flown more Rebels than anybody
I know of. Is there anybody out there that has flown both flaperon style
Rebel and the split flap airelon style Rebel? Is it worth the extra weight
and complexity? Would Split flaps help performance on floats? I ask because I
have a friend who bought a partially built kit (one wing the elevator and
rudder complete ). And has asked me to help build the rest. It came with the
parts for a split flap option. I don't mind building it into the plane IF
it's worth the extra work and complexity, BUT if it doesn't enhance
performance and just adds 20+lbs then why do it?


Phil&Lisa Smith
N414D
#460R



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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Mike !

While increasing the flap angle to 40 degrees might help
the descent situation, it could also rip his wing off !!! This
particular solution was raised years ago, and Mr. Murphy stated
emphatically that this was NOT "A Good Thing"(tm)" !!

The Elite can handle the extra drag because the wing design
was changed, with stronger pickups for drag loads, AND THREE flap
hanger brackets, not TWO, like the Rebel.

Several people have increased the droop angle of the flapperons
on the Rebel by a FEW (like 3-5) degrees for better descent - while
this does increase the load, it is probably ok if they limit their
max. flap speed. Of course, as always, it's an EXPERIMENTAL - you
can make your own choices on YOUR own airplane .... but it helps
to consider the risks !!

Personally, I would NOT recommend the split flaps, OR
going to 40 degrees with them.

.....bobp

---------------------------------orig.--------------------------------
At 06:14 PM 1/18/03 -0900, you wrote:

Hi Phil, as Wayne has already said, and I'm sure Bobp will (since he has
many times before), most people prefer the full flaperons. There is one
exception who is very happy with his split flaps... his secret is that he
didn't leave it in the stock configuration, he changed the flap throw to 40
degrees I believe... same as the Elite and SR/Moose. Maybe Steve will fill
in more details about his installation.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: <LisaFly99@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: Split flap question

To the group
Maybe Bob P. could answer this seeing how he's flown more Rebels than

anybody

I know of. Is there anybody out there that has flown both flaperon style
Rebel and the split flap airelon style Rebel? Is it worth the extra

weight

and complexity? Would Split flaps help performance on floats? I ask

because I

have a friend who bought a partially built kit (one wing the elevator and
rudder complete ). And has asked me to help build the rest. It came with

the

parts for a split flap option. I don't mind building it into the plane IF
it's worth the extra work and complexity, BUT if it doesn't enhance
performance and just adds 20+lbs then why do it?


Phil&Lisa Smith
N414D
#460R

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[SWSLOANLK]

Phil

IMHO I would not use the Murphy Split Flap system as it is a compromise from
the standard flaperon setup. However with that said under the Rebel Interior
section in the archives you will see my split flap floor mounted handle and
the airelon droop & reflex handle extension. This setup allows me to reflex
both the airelon & the flaps as well as drooping the airelons to 12 degrees
and providing 12, 25 and 40 degrees of flap extension.

With my airelons set at 12 degrees of droop and the flaps set at 25 degrees
my Rebel will get off the water one to two seconds faster than the standard
rebel at it's max. flaperion setting as well as breaking one float loose from
the water quicker.

I have flown a number of standard Rebels and Elites and in( IMHO) I have not
given up any thing in performance or handling except for severe cross wind
takeoff and landings with the airelons drooped to 12 degrees. With the
airelons in the neutral position in these conditions it handles just like the
standard Rebel only better.

In reading both Bob's and Waynes commits, I really belive they would change
there opinions if they flew my Rebel, and the invitation is always open to
them to do so.

Steve Sloan




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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

SO!! When are we leaving for the West Coast Bob???

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <SWSLOANLK@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 5:45 PM
Subject: Re:Split flap question

Phil

IMHO I would not use the Murphy Split Flap system as it is a compromise

from

the standard flaperon setup. However with that said under the Rebel

Interior

section in the archives you will see my split flap floor mounted handle

and

the airelon droop & reflex handle extension. This setup allows me to

reflex

both the airelon & the flaps as well as drooping the airelons to 12

degrees

and providing 12, 25 and 40 degrees of flap extension.

With my airelons set at 12 degrees of droop and the flaps set at 25

degrees

my Rebel will get off the water one to two seconds faster than the

standard

rebel at it's max. flaperion setting as well as breaking one float loose

from

the water quicker.

I have flown a number of standard Rebels and Elites and in( IMHO) I have

not

given up any thing in performance or handling except for severe cross wind
takeoff and landings with the airelons drooped to 12 degrees. With the
airelons in the neutral position in these conditions it handles just like

the

standard Rebel only better.

In reading both Bob's and Waynes commits, I really belive they would

change

there opinions if they flew my Rebel, and the invitation is always open to
them to do so.

Steve Sloan

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[Bob Patterson]

After that weather report from Walter .....


Would TOMORROW be too soon ??!!!! :-) :-)


(Shivering at -15 C, with a wind gusting to 52 ... )
( = a wind chill of ___ !!! Get those brass monkeys inside !!)

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.----------------------------------
At 06:15 PM 1/19/03 -0500, you wrote:

SO!! When are we leaving for the West Coast Bob???

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <SWSLOANLK@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 5:45 PM
Subject: Re:Split flap question

Phil

IMHO I would not use the Murphy Split Flap system as it is a compromise

from

the standard flaperon setup. However with that said under the Rebel

Interior

section in the archives you will see my split flap floor mounted handle

and

the airelon droop & reflex handle extension. This setup allows me to

reflex

both the airelon & the flaps as well as drooping the airelons to 12

degrees

and providing 12, 25 and 40 degrees of flap extension.

With my airelons set at 12 degrees of droop and the flaps set at 25

degrees

my Rebel will get off the water one to two seconds faster than the

standard

rebel at it's max. flaperion setting as well as breaking one float loose

from

the water quicker.

I have flown a number of standard Rebels and Elites and in( IMHO) I have

not

given up any thing in performance or handling except for severe cross wind
takeoff and landings with the airelons drooped to 12 degrees. With the
airelons in the neutral position in these conditions it handles just like

the

standard Rebel only better.

In reading both Bob's and Waynes commits, I really belive they would

change

there opinions if they flew my Rebel, and the invitation is always open to
them to do so.

Steve Sloan

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[mike.davis]

Hi Bob,

I'm not even sure that Steve used 40 degrees... I do recall that he did
deviate from the standard installation, and he seemed very happy with the
results. If I recall correctly, he also incorporated reflex into the system.
Again, this is all a faint memory from seeing his airplane last year. Since
I'm not building a Rebel I didn't keep notes on it. :-) I was just interested
in getting a point of view, and maybe some details, from one builder who is
happy with this configuration.

Mike

On 1/19/03 6:55 PM, MURPHY-REBEL@DCSOL.COM wrote to MIKE DAVIS:

->
-> Hi Mike !
->
-> While increasing the flap angle to 40 degrees might help
-> the descent situation, it could also rip his wing off !!! This
-> particular solution was raised years ago, and Mr. Murphy stated
-> emphatically that this was NOT "A Good Thing"(tm)" !!
->
-> The Elite can handle the extra drag because the wing design
-> was changed, with stronger pickups for drag loads, AND THREE flap
-> hanger brackets, not TWO, like the Rebel.
->
-> Several people have increased the droop angle of the flapperons
-> on the Rebel by a FEW (like 3-5) degrees for better descent - while
-> this does increase the load, it is probably ok if they limit their
-> max. flap speed. Of course, as always, it's an EXPERIMENTAL - you
-> can make your own choices on YOUR own airplane .... but it helps
-> to consider the risks !!
->
-> Personally, I would NOT recommend the split flaps, OR
-> going to 40 degrees with them.
->
-> .....bobp
->
-> ---------------------------------orig.--------------------------------
-> At 06:14 PM 1/18/03 -0900, you wrote:
-> >Hi Phil, as Wayne has already said, and I'm sure Bobp will (since he has
-> >many times before), most people prefer the full flaperons. There is one
-> >exception who is very happy with his split flaps... his secret is that he
-> >didn't leave it in the stock configuration, he changed the flap throw to 40
-> >degrees I believe... same as the Elite and SR/Moose. Maybe Steve will fill
-> >in more details about his installation.
-> >
-> >Mike




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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Keith !

Sounds like you should talk to Steve Sloan - he seems to have
come up with the best solution for an Elite. Sounds like his aileron
droop mod would be fairly easy to add, and you likely wouldn't have
to change the basic flap setup. This would give something similar
to the S/R and Moose.

I think the cruise speeds of the 180 hp Elite would make the
control forces 'way too high to be acceptable, with flapperons. OR,
it might mean changing the lengths of all the bellcranks, a couple of
the control horns, and adding all of the Rebel flap mechanism.
Over the years, the Rebel has had many changes to the
control horn sizes to get a good balance between loads and responses
- this might not be a quick-and-easy mod. !

IF you could get Steve's setup, you could add an extra notch
of negative flap, along with negative aileron, which will increase
your cruise, AND make the ride better in rough air.

Fiddling around with control movements can be exciting, and
will require extra time and care in the test flying stages ! I've
experienced some quite exciting moments with aircraft with seemingly
small mods./design changes !!

.....bobp

----------------------------------orig.----------------------------
At 08:56 PM 1/19/03 -0500, you wrote:

So what would be the pros and cons to make an Elite without the split and
what would be required ???
Thanks


Keith Oliver
Elite #654 TD
N654ME (reserved)
Farmingdale, Maine




-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 3:32 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Split flap question



Hi Mike !

While increasing the flap angle to 40 degrees might help
the descent situation, it could also rip his wing off !!! This
particular solution was raised years ago, and Mr. Murphy stated
emphatically that this was NOT "A Good Thing"(tm)" !!

The Elite can handle the extra drag because the wing design
was changed, with stronger pickups for drag loads, AND THREE flap
hanger brackets, not TWO, like the Rebel.

Several people have increased the droop angle of the flapperons
on the Rebel by a FEW (like 3-5) degrees for better descent - while
this does increase the load, it is probably ok if they limit their
max. flap speed. Of course, as always, it's an EXPERIMENTAL - you
can make your own choices on YOUR own airplane .... but it helps
to consider the risks !!

Personally, I would NOT recommend the split flaps, OR
going to 40 degrees with them.

.....bobp

---------------------------------orig.--------------------------------
At 06:14 PM 1/18/03 -0900, you wrote:

Hi Phil, as Wayne has already said, and I'm sure Bobp will (since he has
many times before), most people prefer the full flaperons. There is one
exception who is very happy with his split flaps... his secret is that he
didn't leave it in the stock configuration, he changed the flap throw to 40
degrees I believe... same as the Elite and SR/Moose. Maybe Steve will fill
in more details about his installation.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: <LisaFly99@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: Split flap question

To the group
Maybe Bob P. could answer this seeing how he's flown more Rebels than

anybody

I know of. Is there anybody out there that has flown both flaperon style
Rebel and the split flap airelon style Rebel? Is it worth the extra

weight

and complexity? Would Split flaps help performance on floats? I ask

because I

have a friend who bought a partially built kit (one wing the elevator and
rudder complete ). And has asked me to help build the rest. It came with

the

parts for a split flap option. I don't mind building it into the plane IF
it's worth the extra work and complexity, BUT if it doesn't enhance
performance and just adds 20+lbs then why do it?


Phil&Lisa Smith
N414D
#460R

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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Mike !

I certainly wasn't meaning to jump all over you ! I'm glad
that people DO jump in with other information and viewpoints ...
... certainly don't want to sound like I'm the ultimate authority !!
Just passing on my experiences, observations, and sometimes (!)
outspoken opinions - I'm sorry if they sometimes come across as
dictums... Everyone please be aware that my tongue is usually
firmly in my cheek, and everything is said with a smile !!

I really admire the things that Steve has done with his Rebel.
He has really pushed the envelope of performance improvement, and
I think many builders could benefit from his work on fairings -
this is an inexpensive route to better performance ! Hope someday
to be able to take him up on his kind offer to try his Rebel...

As usual, I guess I over-reacted to the 40 degree flap
idea - just don't want anybody to get hurt ! ("Please don't try
this at home ! " ;-^) )

Keep up the good work !! Thanks for all you do !!

....bobp

-----------------------------------orig.------------------------------
At 06:59 PM 1/19/03 -0900, you wrote:

Hi Bob,

I'm not even sure that Steve used 40 degrees... I do recall that he did
deviate from the standard installation, and he seemed very happy with the
results. If I recall correctly, he also incorporated reflex into the system.
Again, this is all a faint memory from seeing his airplane last year. Since
I'm not building a Rebel I didn't keep notes on it. :-) I was just interested
in getting a point of view, and maybe some details, from one builder who is
happy with this configuration.

Mike

On 1/19/03 6:55 PM, MURPHY-REBEL@DCSOL.COM wrote to MIKE DAVIS:

->
-> Hi Mike !
->
-> While increasing the flap angle to 40 degrees might help
-> the descent situation, it could also rip his wing off !!! This
-> particular solution was raised years ago, and Mr. Murphy stated
-> emphatically that this was NOT "A Good Thing"(tm)" !!
->
-> The Elite can handle the extra drag because the wing design
-> was changed, with stronger pickups for drag loads, AND THREE flap
-> hanger brackets, not TWO, like the Rebel.
->
-> Several people have increased the droop angle of the flapperons
-> on the Rebel by a FEW (like 3-5) degrees for better descent - while
-> this does increase the load, it is probably ok if they limit their
-> max. flap speed. Of course, as always, it's an EXPERIMENTAL - you
-> can make your own choices on YOUR own airplane .... but it helps
-> to consider the risks !!
->
-> Personally, I would NOT recommend the split flaps, OR
-> going to 40 degrees with them.
->
-> .....bobp
->
-> ---------------------------------orig.--------------------------------
-> At 06:14 PM 1/18/03 -0900, you wrote:
-> >Hi Phil, as Wayne has already said, and I'm sure Bobp will (since he has
-> >many times before), most people prefer the full flaperons. There is one
-> >exception who is very happy with his split flaps... his secret is that he
-> >didn't leave it in the stock configuration, he changed the flap throw to 40
-> >degrees I believe... same as the Elite and SR/Moose. Maybe Steve will fill
-> >in more details about his installation.
-> >
-> >Mike



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[Mike Davis]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Skorupa" <c_skorupa@hotmail.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: Split flap question

I am making an Elite with fabric flaps and ailerons by simply using the
Rebel flaps/ailerons. Since Steve Sloan is in my back yard and I have

flown

with him several times and seen the fantastic short field performance

both

with and without floats, I am going to the same split flap arrangement

as

he

did with the increased travel in the ailerons only, which I think is the
standard in the Elite. By the way, you still get reflex and
coordinated "droop" positions in both ailerons and flaps with the

standard

Elite split flap setup, though Steve has separate controls for his I

think.

I think he also does not have the lost motion in the teleflex cable

since

he

doesn't use one. By going to the fabric control surfaces, I will not

pick

up the extra weight of the metal surfaces and also save the weight of

the

balance weight and spade material at the end of the ailerons. I think

you

can use the Elite wingtips with some fiberglass work in the area where

the

spades would have been, or the Rebel wingtips which would require no

mods.

One benefit of this setup is that, in addition to the weight saving, I

can

switch to full flaperons if I decide I must have them. I also have

another

option of going to metal flaps and fabric ailerons. This would require
adding the Elite middle support to the flaps, which helps reduce the

load

on

the center support shared by the aileron and flap and provides redundant
support. I think additional flap deflection (not sure if 40 degrees)

is

standard with the Elite
metal flap, which is not endorsed with the fabric flaps or flaperons.

This

should
enhance short field performance even more. By the way, I have also

flown

in

the factory Elite that had floats on it and it performed exceedingly

well

on

both land and water with its split flaps setup. Seems to me that was

the

same plane that would have won the float plane take-off contest at

Oshkosh

a

few years ago, but the wheels were down slightly during the take-off run

in

the final match against a tricked out Super Cub. On the WORST of days,

the

Rebel or Elite with the split flap setup is no spam can by a long shot,

from

what I have witnessed. I am also a little confused by referring to the
variable flaperon angles caused by inflight flexing of the teleflex

cable

in

the Rebel flaperon setup as a "feature" because it makes water takeoffs

and

landings smooth. Does this mean that the slipping clutch in my car is a
feature because it saves tire wear and assures smooth acceleration?

Think

I'll fix my clutch and improve my driving skills instead.

- Chuck Skorupa -
Elite SN 500 - taildragger

----- Original Message -----
From: <mike.davis@dcsol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: Split flap question

Hi Bob,

I'm not even sure that Steve used 40 degrees... I do recall that he

did

deviate from the standard installation, and he seemed very happy with

the

results. If I recall correctly, he also incorporated reflex into the

system.

Again, this is all a faint memory from seeing his airplane last year.

Since

I'm not building a Rebel I didn't keep notes on it. :-) I was just

interested

in getting a point of view, and maybe some details, from one builder

who

is

happy with this configuration.

Mike

On 1/19/03 6:55 PM, MURPHY-REBEL@DCSOL.COM wrote to MIKE DAVIS:

->
-> Hi Mike !
->
-> While increasing the flap angle to 40 degrees might help
-> the descent situation, it could also rip his wing off !!! This
-> particular solution was raised years ago, and Mr. Murphy stated
-> emphatically that this was NOT "A Good Thing"(tm)" !!
->
-> The Elite can handle the extra drag because the wing design
-> was changed, with stronger pickups for drag loads, AND THREE flap
-> hanger brackets, not TWO, like the Rebel.
->
-> Several people have increased the droop angle of the

flapperons

-> on the Rebel by a FEW (like 3-5) degrees for better descent - while
-> this does increase the load, it is probably ok if they limit their
-> max. flap speed. Of course, as always, it's an EXPERIMENTAL - you
-> can make your own choices on YOUR own airplane .... but it helps
-> to consider the risks !!
->
-> Personally, I would NOT recommend the split flaps, OR
-> going to 40 degrees with them.
->
-> .....bobp
->

-> ---------------------------------orig.--------------------------------

-> At 06:14 PM 1/18/03 -0900, you wrote:
-> >Hi Phil, as Wayne has already said, and I'm sure Bobp will (since

he

has

-> >many times before), most people prefer the full flaperons. There

is

one

-> >exception who is very happy with his split flaps... his secret is

that

he

-> >didn't leave it in the stock configuration, he changed the flap

throw

to 40

-> >degrees I believe... same as the Elite and SR/Moose. Maybe Steve

will

fill

-> >in more details about his installation.
-> >
-> >Mike

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