The Murphy Builders Site

For those using them... what are your thoughts for and against.

E-Mag P model.. running a single + old mag? Running dual P mags? They don't suggest one only... as you don't want the old one and the auto timing curve Pmag firing at different times.

LSE and it's more complicated system to install. Single or dual?

If I find my left mag has internal issues vs timing I may have to move up to the modern world.

From what I've read so far.. I really like the "auto" timing set up on the P-Mag by simply bolting them on and blowing in the manifold tube.

What I had / would have a real hard time with was getting use to the fact you can't shut your master off before shut down. Something that threw me off for a while when I had John Garstang's Elite here installing his amphibs. I'd shut down like I normally do and the engine would die at the stroke of the master switch!

When I bought one P- Emag a few years back they said there was no issue just running one, and most of the gain was had when installing the first one. The Emag always fires first, and I have had no issues, not sure if there have been problems with other single Emag set ups. Mine is tied into the ignition switch, not the master, so it is no different than when I had 2 mags.
Start with 1 P-Emag with NGK iridium plugs and see how you like it.
Don't know how much more power difference it made as I installed it when upgrading to a 0320, but it lets me lean a lot more. I started on the base timing curve, and after a year with no issues went to the more advanced timing curve with no issues. 150 hp and often run shell Vmax mogas through it, seems to work fine.
You can tell if the manifold tube ever comes off as there will be a drop when you check the mag.
Allen H
R151

irishfield wrote:For those using them... what are your thoughts for and against.

E-Mag P model.. running a single + old mag? Running dual P mags? They don't suggest one only... as you don't want the old one and the auto timing curve Pmag firing at different times.

LSE and it's more complicated system to install. Single or dual?

If I find my left mag has internal issues vs timing I may have to move up to the modern world.

From what I've read so far.. I really like the "auto" timing set up on the P-Mag by simply bolting them on and blowing in the manifold tube.

What I had / would have a real hard time with was getting use to the fact you can't shut your master off before shut down. Something that threw me off for a while when I had John Garstang's Elite here installing his amphibs. I'd shut down like I normally do and the engine would die at the stroke of the master switch!

We installed dual electronic ignition. It was part of a master plan that fit well with an efis. I could only justify not having a magneto by having a back up battery. You don't need much but I would say a minimum of an hour. The weight of the electronic ignition and the backup battery isn't any more than mags and you can put the extra battery in the tail, for those of us with heavy engines.

Bob.

Wayne,
Check out www.vansairforce.com and navigate to the forums, then in the Search box type in P-Mag. Be prepared to spend hours reading. It appears a large majority of the people are very happy with them, citing their engine runs smoother, and many claim better fuel economy. The mystery surrounds their advance curves, which they do not publish. Since they are a permanent magnet generator, they don't operate below a certain rpm, but that doesn't appear to be a problem. In addition, there are ways to wire them with a 9 volt battery in case you need to hand prop your airplane. In the older posts, you will see more negativity. There were evidently bonding issues with some of the internals in the early models, but that has since been corrected. In addition, they get high marks for customer service.
Ted put them in his new Outlaw, and so far is quite happy with the performance. For my Super Rebel, they're not an option since they haven't completed work on the six cylinder version yet. So, I have new Bendix mags sitting on the shelf ready to go.
Jerry Folkerts

Hi Group: My doubt regarding electronic magnetos is whether they need a battery to keep them firing. Old style Slicks and Bendix are totally autonomous; they produce their own electricity, and for that matter, spark to fire the engine as long as the engine is turning. I would suggest one electronic and one "old style" magneto with points and condenser. Regards, Eduardo

Electronic ignition is a no brainer for me. Fuel savings alone pays for it in about 200 hours (1 side only), and more with cheaper plugs, and less maintenance (mags every 500 hours). And you get extra power (at least 4%), smoother running, cooler CHTs (because you go LOP), less weight, and better starting. Probably other benefits, but that should be enough for anyone...

I have the LSE Plasma III on one side only (still have an impulse mag) with a crank trigger (no moving parts). I get 1.5 gph saving (at least) over mags on my old 320, cruising at the same speed, and I used to lean it pretty good, too (have a fuel flow meter down to .1 decimal place).

The Plasma III gives a 20 degree crank rotation duration spark (most others, are only 10 degrees). Advance (comes with an instrument that shows advance, map, and rpm) in cruise is about 31 degrees, and as high as 39 at low power. When I do my mag checks, there is no rpm drop on the EI side, and the usual on the mag side.

The LSE EI's are very reliable, and any problems are usually self inflicted (I had one). Not sure about the current emags and pmags, but I understand the earlier ones did have a lot of problems. I very much like the no moving parts aspect of LSE. I think the Plasma III gives the greatest fuel savings, too.

Many do install dual LSE's, but then you better be sure you have it all figured out as far battery back-ups and fail safe cut-overs. I prefer the one side EI and the other impulse mag. For sure, you get most of the benefits with with one EI, and not sure if you even get any further fuel savings with dual (if you use the Plasma III).

[quote="Walter Klatt"] "but then you better be sure you have it all figured out as far battery back-ups and fail safe cut-overs."[quote]

One 6 pound sealed battery with the appropriate diode does the trick I think. About the same wt as one mag?

Thanks guys.. .keep'm coming so that I have lots to read.. :thumbup:

Other issue for me... it might be my left impulse mag that's messed up... so I'd still be overhauling it and an electronic for the right if I go ahead.

I've been running an E mag and a P mag since I swapped my engine for an 0-320 in 2006. So I'm an early adopter and I have had 2 failures that showed up on the ground during my run up. I suspect that they failed while I was flying but the other one works so well there's no roughness or drop in rpm. Emagair was great covered the first failure under warranty even though it was expired and fixed it the second time at reasonable cost. turnaround was very fast. When I bought mine the price was about the same as slicks but I saved a pile by getting my spark plugs at Canadian Tire. I don't run a backup battery because the P mag has a built in alternator that takes over if power is lost. All in all I'm pleased with them an would buy another set.

irishfield wrote:Other issue for me... it might be my left impulse mag that's messed up... so I'd still be overhauling it and an electronic for the right if I go ahead.

Here's a novel idea for you,... :think: Instead of spending money on your left impulse mag, replace it with a P model emag. Then replace the right side with a crank triggered (saves weight and no moving parts) LSE Plasma III. Then you get the benefits of the added power and fuel savings with the 20 degree rotation spark duration. The pmag means you don't need a battery back-up with dual EI.

I have my EI wired to the ignition switch, to keep it simple. But, to be safe, should pause on Both before Start to prevent possibility of a kickback. However, if I did it again, would have put the EI on a separate circuit with a switch so that my ignition switch is not the only means of powering the EI on and off.

My set-up is similar to Walter's. The EI is on its own circuit with a pullable breaker so I can turn it on and off independent of the ignition switch. Seems to work well.
John

irishfield wrote:For those using them... what are your thoughts for and against.

E-Mag P model.. running a single + old mag? Running dual P mags? They don't suggest one only... as you don't want the old one and the auto timing curve Pmag firing at different times.

LSE and it's more complicated system to install. Single or dual?

If I find my left mag has internal issues vs timing I may have to move up to the modern world.

From what I've read so far.. I really like the "auto" timing set up on the P-Mag by simply bolting them on and blowing in the manifold tube.

What I had / would have a real hard time with was getting use to the fact you can't shut your master off before shut down. Something that threw me off for a while when I had John Garstang's Elite here installing his amphibs. I'd shut down like I normally do and the engine would die at the stroke of the master switch!

G'day Wayne / Guys !

Here's my three pesos worth ....
( BTW : I wrote a HUGE answer - on my eyefone ( as I WAS away from home - werking in Sydney) - but when I went to post it - I got a weird message back ..... and my long winded post -was GONE !?!?!? ....................... fortunately I saved the text in the phone and here’s my post – now that I’m home again)

----------------------

Re the LSE / P-Mag etc .....

"R1" had a SOOPED UP 0-235 in it .... shovelling out about 145HP (empirically tested against other engines swinging the same test propeller)
It had one LSE and one "normal magneto" .... ( also 10:1 pistons, ported & polished blueprinted, balanced, custom inlets & carby, custom exhaust etc etc etc)

The LSE was a fair pain to fit ( as I'm sure you are aware) .... but it did give a big fat spark - and we estimate somewhere around 14% increase in power output ...
( Jon Johanson - the Ozzy that has broken 51 world records in his highly modified RV4) is a good friend -and the Australian agent for LSE ...... has been dyno testing LOTS of engines ..... and he said to me :
"The promotional stuff says that one LSE gives a 10% increase in power – and the second – 5% more ...... but our testing has proved that the FIRST electronic ignition adds 14% more HP .... and the second adds ONE percent more"

Our sooped up 0-235 delaminated the centre main at 208 hrs running time ... ( at 5,000ft - over cattle grazing land) .... we limped into a field 38 miles away ... ( NOTE : the bearing that failed was one of the aluminium based babbitt metal ones that Lycoming tried - with disastrous results - now abandoned - thank )

Repaired / Rebuilt the 0-235 & sold it - detuned to its "normal" 125 HP “J” variant & bought an almost time-ex IO-320 (there REALLY is NO substitute for cubic inches guys !)
Sooped up the IO-320 .... ( custom tuned exhaust, put an IO-360 sump on it as 360’s have “tuned inlets” whereas the 320 doesn’t – which required some “massaging” of the inlet pipes – but it all worked out OK) ..... Still using the LSE - and replaced the standard magneto with an early P-Mag - ( engine is now making an estimated 180HP) and R1 was running HOT ! ( fast & GREAT short field performance)

Flying up the coast and HEAVY AS HELL - ( full fuel-61 US gallons, lots of tools & parts for our new house project) & BAM -the engine starts running like a hairy goat !!! .... (it was only firing on 3 cylinders as it turned out) ...

BEST I can get out of it is a 400fpm decent rate .... and I scraped it into an airstrip 7 miles inland
( discovered that the early E-mags were prone to spinning the timing magnet .... which mine obviously did ...
with the top plugs now not firing – and the "well worn" IO-320 is using a bit of oil - and the LSE WON'T fire "wet plugs" (Klaus confirmed this when I rang him to research the unit only firing on 3 cylinders after the E-mag spat the dummy) ...

A quick phone call and Brad at E-Mag has a NEW design P-Mag in my hands in 4 days flat ! ( that's Texas to outback Australia in 4 days)

The P-Mag is a breeze to fit & time ..... and I'm off in no time flat

History :
With the original setup (LSE and Magneto) ..... when I did a mag drop – and turned the LSE off, the magneto would let the RPM drop off about 150 ..... and when I dropped the magneto - the LSE didn't q...u...i...t...e hold the RPM – but it was better than the magneto ( due to the better “flame front propagation” from the bigger fatter spark

When the early version of the P-Mag was fitted in place of the magneto – the P-Mag HELD the RPM when I dropped the LSE – but with the LSE already dead/ dropped – the RPM hesitated noticeably when I did a mains bus drop ( as it switched over to it’s own internal alternator to supply power to run itself) ..... so you KNEW “something had happened” ......

BUT - with the NEW design P-Mag (with the timing magnet “pinned” in place – so it CAN’T move) fitted – it not only HOLDS the RPM when the LSE was dropped off – but when I then cut the mains supply – (thereby forcing the P-Mag to switch to it’s own internal power supply) – there was absolutely NO hesitation – whatsoever !
This meant that if you weren’t paying attention – and your 12Volt mains supply shat itself – you would NOT know about it – unless something else indicated the loss somehow !!!

I fitted a BIG red light on the dash - to say "HEY STUPID - YER 12 VOLT SYSTEM JUST WENT KAPUT!!!

I know the P-Mags aren't "cheap" .................. but I think they are well worth the extra dollars !

The engine produces MORE HP with a SIMPLE two bolt job !
They are DEAD EASY to fit and time PROPERLY
Runs more economically ( as you need less throttle for the same output - due to the better fuel burn I expect)
Idles smoother
Idles slower - IF you want that feature too !

I now have TWO NEW P-Mags waiting to go into R2 when she's ready to fly !

Hope this helps some of you guys in your decision making !

As I slowly work my way towards the inevitable here....

What spark plugs are you guys running with your P mags?

Hi Wayne Merry Christmas. I'm running the recommended plugs NGK BR8ES plugs. They come out a nice tan colour so I don't feel any need to try different heat ranges.