Painting Issues

[edodor]

I'm in the process of stripping my Rebel for a repainting. I'm interested in Dupont Standox system. Does anyone have experience with this product system and is it a water based system? I would appreciate any experience feedback.
Thanks, Ed Odor, Tavares, FL, email direct to 47348@udel.edu

[Jerry Folkerts]

Ed,
No experience with it, but please let us know what you find out and how it works. I'm looking at painting sometime in the next year.
Jerry

[Drew Dalgleish]

I'm not familiar with that system. I used to follow a bearhawk builders list and they mostly seem to prefer stewart system paints. It's water based and reportedly works well on fabric and metal. I plan to use it on a cedar canoe that I need to cover some day.

[edodor]

I was leaning toward the Stewart system mainly because of the water soluble situation, but now I'm looking at other avenues due to major problems that two in my area had. One of our EAA chapter members built a RV-9 and repainted his wings TWICE. The coat on there now is the third coat and he's still not happy with the result. Another guy recently moved to the area also with a RV-9. He is having his stripped and repainted by a local aircraft paint shop for many thousand dollors. I'm spooked at these two happenings. I've painted farm equipment using auto finishes and am investigating this system that has a color coat and a gloss top coat. I understand that if there is a run, it will be in the gloss coat and can be wet sanded out. I'll keep posting on my investigation of this system. Cheers, Ed Odor

[Elite583]

I've painted farm equipment using auto finishes and am investigating this system that has a color coat and a gloss top coat. I understand that if there is a run, it will be in the gloss coat and can be wet sanded out. I'll keep posting on my investigation of this system. Cheers, Ed Odor

I've used the Nason (Dupont) Base-Clear system on some automotive work and would not consider going back to a single stage. I'm by no means an accomplished painter but the finish you get with the clear is stunning. It is easier to do well than the single stages I have used in the past.

As Ed notes, if you don't like the finish you get or you get a run or a spec of dirt in the paint then give it a day or two and wet sand it out with no less than 600 on a sanding block then progressively up to 1500 or 2000 grit and then buff with compound you get from autobody jobbers and you'll be amazed at the result. I use a 3M product on a yellow foam buffer pad. For larger areas you'll want a 5 - 6" variable speed buffer. Done that way you can't tell where the edge of the sanded area is except it'll be smoother than the sprayed section.

The base coat looks like the devil when it dries, almost orange peel like and flat but the clear brings it to life and smooths out the surface.

TRY IT ON SOME SCRAP MATERIAL FIRST. Seriously, get an old fender from a car or something like that and develop your technique before trying something good.

I use a gravity feed HVLP (High Volume Low Pressure) gun from Princess Auto (like Harbour Freight in the US).

USE A FRESH AIR SYSTEM, don't rely on carbon filter masks it's cheap insurance. See "Other Details" on my site at http://www.elite583.cjb.net for the fresh air blower I made for painting, uses a vacuum cleaner blower.

Have fun!

Dave
Elite 583

[edodor]

Dave, thanks so much for the info. I have researched since I posted it and find that there are several waterborne products available. There are systems from Sherwin Williams, DeVilbiss, PFC, Global Finishing Solutions, USIltralia, JunAir Technologies and PPG among others. I'm curious as to why you recommend a positive air respirator system with the waterborne systems. I'm delighted that you included the site for your respirator system. I saw it the other evening and could not remember where to find it. Here is the site for a post that goes back to 2006 that may be of interest to others. http://www.dtsc.ca.gov/PollutionPrevent ... atings.pdf Cheers, Ed Odor

[Elite583]

Dave, thanks so much for the info. I have researched since I posted it and find that there are several waterborne products available. There are systems from Sherwin Williams, DeVilbiss, PFC, Global Finishing Solutions, USIltralia, JunAir Technologies and PPG among others. I'm curious as to why you recommend a positive air respirator system with the waterborne systems. I'm delighted that you included the site for your respirator system. I saw it the other evening and could not remember where to find it. Here is the site for a post that goes back to 2006 that may be of interest to others. http://www.dtsc.ca.gov/PollutionPrevent ... atings.pdf Cheers, Ed Odor

Hi Ed

I wasn't clear, the paint system I mentioned is not waterborne so I believe a good fresh air system is important. Not sure what to think about that for waterborne.

From what I have read about waterborne you need drying ovens etc., I'm not very optimistic about using it in a DIY environment but maybe as it becomes more mainstream that may change. I for one will be very interested to see how it goes as you move ahead with the process because I do think that eventually all automotive finishes will change over because of the environmental push.

Cheers,

Dave

[edodor]

Dave and others, I meant to affirm that the Dupont system called Standox is a waterborn system. The Sherwin Williams system is called AWX system. I'm not aware of drying oven issues but I'll check it out.

I do know that the Stewart system doesn't go into anything about drying oven issue. My friend that used the Stewart system related that he could only mix what he could use in 45 minutes. When you mixed the next batch, he found that it was impossible to get the same exact color. He became very frustrated and now says that he would not recomment it to anyone.
What I'm hearing is in aggreement with the idea that all volital organic solvent products will be banned in the future. I think that California is leading the trend. Maybe someone has knowledge of the Dupont product Standox. It has been used in Germany for thirty years and Dupont purchased the rights to it. Does anyone have information on this aspect?

A local A & P shop uses automotive acrylic enamel with very good results. He says that it is the cheapest product available and I've seen his results, they're very good. I'm going to a flyin in Mims, FL July 21 where the airstrip owner has Rebel on amphibs that is beautiful and is on with an aligator on the tail. A picture of it is on the Rebel photos section. It was painted by an auto shop and I'll pick their brains about their process and report later. Their website is bullgatorsflyin.com

Dave, can you send me details on your pressure box, including supliers etc.? I'm interested in building one. Cheers, Ed Odor

[gbjabreeyear]

Greetings All,
This is my first post on this web site and have been "reading the mail" regarding this thread on painting. One consideration that I have not seen discussed is the painting of the fabric surfaces. One very important attribute to the Stits and Stewart paint systems for fabric is the flexibility of the paint. Automotive paints tend to be brittle unless flex agents are used in the mix. While the finished product (using typical automotive paints) look great for a couple of years the paint usually developes cracks wherever the fabric flexes. You must also consider the UV properties of your paint system. Don't forget to add a UV blocking product under your topcoat.
JerryB, Salome, Az

[c120pilot]

I covered my flaperons with the Stewart system and found it very user friendly and will use their paint on the fabric. I took one of their sample pieces of painted aluminum and thought it seemed to be a soft paint that marked easily. I will probably stick to a single stage acrylic urethane that I used on one plane already with great results.
I talked to a professional custom painter that just did my Harley with about 8 coats urethane. With the two stage system if you do not put the clear on while the color is still wet you have to sand it before putting the clear on. I don't want to tackle that task with all the rivets on the Rebel. It would seem almost impossible to sand around all the rivets without taking the paint off of them.
He also said at the "green shops" that use the water born paints they still have to put a urethane clear coat on the cars to get it to shine and it is a harder finish.


That's my unprofessional experience.
Curtis

[Elite583]

Dave, can you send me details on your pressure box, including supliers etc.? I'm interested in building one. Cheers, Ed Odor

Ed

My fresh air system is based on a Lamb central vac blower I picked up as surplus from Princess auto, I believe it's a 2 stage but I don't think that's too important. The rest of it is hardware store plumbing supplies like 3/4" copper tubing and ABS pipe. The only "magic" of of it is that I split the flow from the blower into two streams and one blows on the motor part of the blower through 2" ABS & with a 3/4" orifice to cool it and the pressure to the hood (actually flow restriction at the blower) is managed by having a Tee in the 3/4" copper and one side of the Tee is open releasing some back pressure.

You can tell when you have too much back pressure by hearing the motor labour. You need to free it up or it'll overheat.

The filter is a conveniently sized shop vac filter from the hardware store. It keeps it from picking up debris and bugs because I put it outside the shop to pick up clean air when I'm painting, obviously upwind from my vent fan.

That's about it, it's pretty well what you see in the photos.

To Curtis's comment on base-clear painting, I think the theory is that you plan on doing the clear right after the base (min 15 minutes flash time) so having to scuff it doesn't become part of the job. If I were doing it I'd probably plan to do the plane in pieces and only do as many pieces as I could handle at once so excessive drying time wouldn't be a factor. I know this, I would try and avoid sanding the base coat, especially for metallic and especially for blending repair areas because if you know where the blend is you can see it if you look hard enough. This on a panel I touched up on my car. I went back and broadened the base area over the repair and cleared over a larger area then wet sand/buffed it and it disappeared.

Learning curve based on sweat and effort but we do this because think we can and want to try it LOL!

Dave
Elite 583

[edodor]

Dave and Curtis, Thanks for the info and I'll get back to the topic after July 21st. Just now, I'm totally spooked about the waterborn systems and will most likely make a pressure box like Dave's and go with acrylic urithane or acrylic enamal. This conversation is valuable to me in making my decisions. Someone ask me if I had any painting experience. I replied that I had painted some farm equipment that went OK and as a teenager, I painted a Cushman motor scooter with rattle can paint from Western Auto store. At the time I thought that I did a great job, but no one else thought so. Cheers, Ed Odor

[Fred Nurk]

Some years ago I picked up a blown mask at the Oshkosh airshow - sorry, no idea of the maker, and used it constantly while sanding fibreglass while building a Glasair.
As a blower I used a vacuum cleaner thoroughly cleaned out with a pad of Dacron upholstry stuffing as a prefilter, and 40' of inch plastic tube from the exhaust outlet of the vacuum cleaner to the mask. Rick Harper also painted his Rebel using this outfit.
A blown mask like this has the further advantage for anyone wearing glasses in that they never fog, and with the long hose the air delivered is never hot... fine for Australia, but you northern hemisphere people may need a preheater.

Fred Nurk

[Elite583]

Some years ago I picked up a blown mask at the Oshkosh airshow - sorry, no idea of the maker, and used it constantly while sanding fibreglass while building a Glasair.
As a blower I used a vacuum cleaner thoroughly cleaned out with a pad of Dacron upholstry stuffing as a prefilter, and 40' of inch plastic tube from the exhaust outlet of the vacuum cleaner to the mask. Rick Harper also painted his Rebel using this outfit.
A blown mask like this has the further advantage for anyone wearing glasses in that they never fog, and with the long hose the air delivered is never hot... fine for Australia, but you northern hemisphere people may need a preheater.

Fred Nurk

If you use a vacuum cleaner make sure the air does not pass through the motor or you'll get ozone and carbon from the brushes.

Dave

[edodor]

Vacume, a good idea to look into.

Ed Odor