The Murphy Builders Site

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:27 pm**

+
Hi Curt,

Are you talking about an electronic ignition? Is it for an 0-320? Is it a 150
or 160 HP? Can you use auto plugs and gas with this EI even on a 160 HP?

Wayne,

Thanks for the lead on ATC. I've talked to John and am considering an engine
from them. I mentioned it to an EAA technical councilor from Salem Oregon who
said RV builders buy a lot of his engines. He knows of several problems some
builders had with his rebuilds, including an in-flight failure and fire,
resulting in a fatality.

I am not up to speed on remanufactured engines like some of you. Any comments
appreciated.

Do the parts used in the rebuild make a difference in quality? Are the
certified parts better or just more expensive? If the guy has a good
reputation how concerned should I relay be?
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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:27 pm**

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Your following message has been delivered to the 163 members of
the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 00:19:15 on 19 Oct 2000.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bruce, I was at Johns today to pick up my O-320 and asked him if you had
called! He said that you had and he was thankful for Bob Patterson's (and
myself) recommending him to the Rebel builders out there!

We must however watch what we spread on the internet if unknown to be
factual, 3rd place rumour etc.because someone will take the "ball" and run
with it! An in-flight failure and fire can be easily caused by an exhaust
pipe cracking open in a tightly cowled engine and cooking a fuel line, or a
carb float sticking and the extra fuel pouring out the intake/carb heat box
when the engine is throttled back. Who knows <after> the crash! What other
problems are they really having and are they really ATC engines? I have
heard a lot of people tying John to some engines that he supposable built
(or signed off). One is in a Rebel that is supposed to be producing 173+
horsepower from an O-320. I asked John about this motor today and he told me
it was assembled at ANOTHER ENGINE SHOP, AFTER HE LEFT THEIR FACILITIES,
from as far as he knew parts left around the shop (new, old, quarantine
cage, etc) and <may> be a great engine or <may> die tomorrow, nobody really
knows. It had a lot of fancy machining and fitting necessary to put
different cylinders on the case as opposed to the style that belonged on it,
etc.

I have not heard any complaints from buyers of overhauled engines from his
own shop (ATC), homebuilt or certified. When a lot of the engine "builders"
do Homebuilt engines they will ignore AD's, semi worn parts etc, because
after all it is just for us crazy homebuilders (kind of like cut down props
that are "suitable for homebuilts" as the advert always reads). The engine I
picked up today from John had all the AD's complied with, new oil pump
gears, housing etc. A NEW camshaft and lifters installed. The crank is the
heavier one that can legally go to 160 H.P. so it should last for ever at
the 150 H.P. I had him build it as! Mags overhauled, new harnesses and
plugs, Carb totally overhauled including new throttle shaft, throttle arm,
one piece venturi, etc. etc. I will be bolting her on tomorrow and hopefully
running it within a week or so. (it has been run 2.3 hours on the dyno
already) I still can't move the plane though as I have been waiting 3 1/2
months for chrome plated roller bearings from Timken, for the amphibs main
wheels! This was my first engine from ATC so I have no direct "ties" to
their work, but living only 40 minutes away (by car) in this small
"community" of flying, I am sure that I would have been told to stay away by
now if there was any problems with ATC's work. I guess only time will tell,
but if machinery is any indication of quality, John has the newest engine
refurbishing equipment, to my knowledge, of any shop in Ontario!

Blue skies,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: <Legeorgen@cs.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 10:55 PM
Subject: Re: ATC Ontario

Wayne,

Thanks for the lead on ATC. I've talked to John and am considering an

engine

from them. I mentioned it to an EAA technical councilor from Salem Oregon

who

said RV builders buy a lot of his engines. He knows of several problems

some

builders had with his rebuilds, including an in-flight failure and fire,
resulting in a fatality.

I am not up to speed on remanufactured engines like some of you. Any

comments

appreciated.

Do the parts used in the rebuild make a difference in quality? Are the
certified parts better or just more expensive? If the guy has a good
reputation how concerned should I relay be?

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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:27 pm**

Hi Bruce !

I know of over 30 Rebel builders who have had good results
with engines that John, at ATC, has done - don't know of ANY RV builders.

It's possible there are several outfits called "ATC" .... I sure
would hate to see them <all> tarred by the same "third hand rumour" !

Can this Tech Councillor give specifics - who, what problems,
and which "ATC" ??

Of course, the quality of parts used will affect the life of
the engine, and you're right - the integrity of the guy doing the
rebuilding is your best guarantee !!

.....bobp

----------------------------orig.--------------------------------------------
At 10:55 PM 10/18/00 EDT, you wrote:

+
Hi Curt,

Are you talking about an electronic ignition? Is it for an 0-320? Is it a 150
or 160 HP? Can you use auto plugs and gas with this EI even on a 160 HP?

Wayne,

Thanks for the lead on ATC. I've talked to John and am considering an engine
from them. I mentioned it to an EAA technical councilor from Salem Oregon who
said RV builders buy a lot of his engines. He knows of several problems some
builders had with his rebuilds, including an in-flight failure and fire,
resulting in a fatality.

I am not up to speed on remanufactured engines like some of you. Any comments
appreciated.

Do the parts used in the rebuild make a difference in quality? Are the
certified parts better or just more expensive? If the guy has a good
reputation how concerned should I relay be?
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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:27 pm**

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Your following message has been delivered to the 163 members of
the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 22:22:02 on 19 Oct 2000.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

ALL (that are interested in this thread anyhow!),

I talked to John at ATC (Aviation Technical Consultants) today and he has
<NEVER> built an engine for an AMERICAN RV! Just to put that one to bed. He
would like to know how to contact this EAA advisor that is smearing his rep
though. Do you have an e-mail address I can pass on Bruce?

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2000 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: ATC Ontario

Hi Bruce !

I know of over 30 Rebel builders who have had good results
with engines that John, at ATC, has done - don't know of ANY RV builders.

It's possible there are several outfits called "ATC" .... I sure
would hate to see them <all> tarred by the same "third hand rumour" !

Can this Tech Councillor give specifics - who, what problems,
and which "ATC" ??

Of course, the quality of parts used will affect the life of
the engine, and you're right - the integrity of the guy doing the
rebuilding is your best guarantee !!

.....bobp

----------------------------orig.-----------------------------------------

---

At 10:55 PM 10/18/00 EDT, you wrote:
+
Hi Curt,

Are you talking about an electronic ignition? Is it for an 0-320? Is it a

150

or 160 HP? Can you use auto plugs and gas with this EI even on a 160 HP?

Wayne,

Thanks for the lead on ATC. I've talked to John and am considering an

engine

from them. I mentioned it to an EAA technical councilor from Salem Oregon

who

said RV builders buy a lot of his engines. He knows of several problems

some

builders had with his rebuilds, including an in-flight failure and fire,
resulting in a fatality.

I am not up to speed on remanufactured engines like some of you. Any

comments

appreciated.

Do the parts used in the rebuild make a difference in quality? Are the
certified parts better or just more expensive? If the guy has a good
reputation how concerned should I relay be?
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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:27 pm**

Wayne,

Very good point about supposed engine failures and fires. Fires can be caused
by a number of poor installation practices and may have nothing to do with
the engine remanufacture. I would not want to start a false accusation about
a proprietors business and do any harm to an otherwise good company. I will
make it a practice from now on, to check out any such rumors before repeating
them on the airways.

I was in Seattle Friday and drove up to MAM for a visit. I had a nice
conversation with Darryl Murphy about cutting the firewall back. He gave me
the moment of inertia talk, about why it's important to cut back the
Firewall. Who am I to argue with Darryl. I thought I had this issue settled
but now I'm at odds with it again.

Sounds like you're all set with this new Rebel float plane! Is this the one
you were advertising for sale some months ago, and did you decide to keep it
instead? I guess I have a lot of catching up to do.

Blue skies and tailwinds,
Bruce 357R
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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:27 pm**

Hi Bob,

You must have read my apology, to all, for the comments on a possible engine
failure. I will do better.

Thanks for the help and info you guys provide for us new and old builders. I
like the building stage but after my first kit I never thought I would dive
into the process again so soon as I did. I like to fly much more than build
but I was bit by the bug and got the Rebel disease. I just had to have one.
Now I just want to get it finished and flying as soon as possible.

Bruce 357R
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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:27 pm**

Wayne,

I prefer to contact "Ernie" about his comments on ATC first, before I give
out his Email address to John, in case there was a misunderstanding. If he
makes claim to the same, I will contact John and put them in touch with each
other. I was in error to have printed this information I received "third
party" without further clarification, and I apologies to all. Personally, I
think John builds a fine engine and I have no reason to believe otherwise.

Bruce 357R

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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:27 pm**

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Your following message has been delivered to the 163 members of
the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 10:37:03 on 23 Oct 2000.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bruce, We <ALL> find that hind sight is 20/20!! It's just that the hair on
my back rises a little when I hear detrimental "rumours" about business guys
that are busting their buts to make a living. Business "types" like Lance
Wheeler <probably> deserve it, others do (or may) not!

As for your visit to MAM, great to hear Darryl had the time to talk with
you, and of course that would be the standard answer in regards to the
firewall! What else could/would he tell you?

The Rebel Amphib still has a fair way to go before it will fly again, it has
been a never ending list of "to do's" with over 200 hours of refurb so far
(and over $30,000 Cdn in parts) and I still haven't touched the panel! I'm
hoping to at least be able to do the climb tests for Transport Canada (due
to the engine change and wing mods) before winter sets in , but I don't know
if I will make it. I thought I might have it done for the November Rebel
meeting, but I really don't think so at this point in time! I'm going to try
and get it flying again first, then do the panel over the winter. As for
selling it, the price will be fairly high due to the "input" I am having to
put into this one. I have a fairly serious buyer (if he sells his current
ride), but I don't really care if it sells as it will be a great toy when
it's done!

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: <Legeorgen@cs.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 11:26 PM
Subject: Re: ATC Ontario

Wayne,

Very good point about supposed engine failures and fires. Fires can be

caused

by a number of poor installation practices and may have nothing to do with
the engine remanufacture. I would not want to start a false accusation

about

a proprietors business and do any harm to an otherwise good company. I

will

make it a practice from now on, to check out any such rumors before

repeating

them on the airways.

I was in Seattle Friday and drove up to MAM for a visit. I had a nice
conversation with Darryl Murphy about cutting the firewall back. He gave

me

the moment of inertia talk, about why it's important to cut back the
Firewall. Who am I to argue with Darryl. I thought I had this issue

settled

but now I'm at odds with it again.

Sounds like you're all set with this new Rebel float plane! Is this the

one

you were advertising for sale some months ago, and did you decide to keep

it

instead? I guess I have a lot of catching up to do.

Blue skies and tailwinds,
Bruce 357R

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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:27 pm**

In reference to remanufactured/overhauled engines:

The problem of greatest concern when having an engine overhauled is the
wear limits on specific parts. As long as non-destructable testing
shows no cracks and the wear is within manufactured measured-wear limits
the part is generally returned to service - BUT the problem is that it
could be 90%+ through its permissible wear limits and in the next 50-100
hours of engine time it will bring the part over the serviceable limit.
Basically this is accepted practice in the industry.

Best bet is to buy a first-run core, and/or if it's a Lycoming a
"wide-deck" engine.

My two cents worth.

Peter Kopasovic
SR003

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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:27 pm**

That's OK, Bruce ....

Sometimes, all we have to go on is a rumour, and even that
can be enough to make people stop & dig into things a bit further.
If the digging turns up a "bad apple", then everyone wins - at least
folks had a bit of a warning, and maybe someone was spared a big
loss. One of our Rebel builders spoke up about his problems with
trying to get delivery of his engine from NSI, over 4 years ago,
and saved MANY builders from potential losses of time AND money.

In this case, it seems that the "good guys" are being
redeemed, and hopefully will actually gain some business, because
someone at least raised the question. Better to have it out in the
open in this forum, than killing sales behind the scenes !!

Please don't hesitate to report anything you might hear about
aviation products or services - and continue to quote your sources.
You just might save us all some grief somewhere along the line....
Fortunately, we have some great resources in this group, and they
can check out almost anything !! :-)

Hope you DO get that Rebel flying soon - you'll LOVE it !!

....bobp

-----------------------------------orig.---------------------------------
At 11:41 PM 10/22/00 EDT, you wrote:

Hi Bob,

You must have read my apology, to all, for the comments on a possible engine
failure. I will do better.

Thanks for the help and info you guys provide for us new and old builders. I
like the building stage but after my first kit I never thought I would dive
into the process again so soon as I did. I like to fly much more than build
but I was bit by the bug and got the Rebel disease. I just had to have one.
Now I just want to get it finished and flying as soon as possible.

Bruce 357R
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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:27 pm**

To all,

Ernie says "his mistake." The engine shop in question is in B.C. not Ontario.
So I'll leave it at that. Remember to check out your engine shop. Ask for
reverences, people flying on their engines. Any reputable company will gladly
supply you with happy customers. If I have a bad experience you can bet I'll
voice it on the forum. Thanks.

Blue skies

Bruce 357R
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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:27 pm**

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Your following message has been delivered to the 160 members of
the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 14:11:57 on 24 Oct 2000.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I let John at ATC know that he is off the "hook" for now! This will only
make his work better (if that's possible), since he now knows that we are
all keeping a good eye on his engines.

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: <Legeorgen@cs.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 3:21 AM
Subject: Re: ATC Ontario

To all,

Ernie says "his mistake." The engine shop in question is in B.C. not

Ontario.

So I'll leave it at that. Remember to check out your engine shop. Ask for
reverences, people flying on their engines. Any reputable company will

gladly

supply you with happy customers. If I have a bad experience you can bet

I'll

voice it on the forum. Thanks.

Blue skies

Bruce 357R

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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:27 pm**

Sorry Bruce - now you've got our curiosity up !! :-)

Several Rebel builders have bought, or are considering buying,
engines from shops in B.C. .... (the factory have also bought overhauled
engines occasionally). There is at least one Rebel flying nearby that
has an engine from a shop in B.C. .....

Any chance you could give us a bigger hint on who to avoid or
at least check out carefully ???

......bobp

--------------------------orig.---------------------------------------------
At 03:21 AM 10/24/00 EDT, you wrote:

To all,

Ernie says "his mistake." The engine shop in question is in B.C. not Ontario.
So I'll leave it at that. Remember to check out your engine shop. Ask for
reverences, people flying on their engines. Any reputable company will gladly
supply you with happy customers. If I have a bad experience you can bet I'll
voice it on the forum. Thanks.

Blue skies

Bruce 357R
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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:27 pm**

Peter, What is a wide deck engine?

Bruce 357R
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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:27 pm**

Bob,

I will ask Ernie for the name of this company. In our last email he wanted to
talk to his RV buddies first to get the details. MAM did suggest I get a
quote from Aero Sport of BC. I don't know anything about this company other
than MAM has bought their stuff.

Bruce 357R
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