[rebel-builders] SR/Moose: Factory (manual) weight & balance
Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:20 pm
Ted was trying to protect me from embarrassment over measurement errors by
corresponding with me directly. Appreciate it Ted but not to worry. I don't
mind fessing up if I made a boo-boo especially if it could lead to someone
else using bad numbers. I still advocate everyone making your own
measurements. Differences do exist between different builders and pilot
preferences for seat position as mentioned below.
I went and re-measured today. Here's what I got this time:
Pilot - 20 inches
Passengers - 58 inches
Baggage - 81 inches
Rear Baggage - 118 inches
Not sure where I got 27 inches for the pilot the first time since that would
be pretty far back. Getting 20 inches this time is pretty close to the 17
inches Ted got. Just a difference between where we like our seats and the
point we measured to. I measured to just a little bit ahead of the seatback.
With the seatback reclined slightly I was trying to estimate the center of
where a persons weight might fall.
I must have just messed up the first time I measured for passengers. But my
passenger seats are still more rearward than Ted's. That difference could be
where we each chose to measure and also where the rearmost point on the seat
rails are for each of our planes. Anyone using the bench seat will likely
get a different location.
My original baggage number is consistent with measuring to the rearmost
point. I must have decided to use the worst case location. I think I will go
with the new number which is the center of the baggage area and is only two
inches different than Ted's measurement.
I think I might have done something similar with the rear baggage area.
Anyway, I adjusted it to the center of the rear baggage area and I am only
two inches different than Ted's measurement.
Mike
044SR
-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Waltman [mailto:tedwaltman@i1ci.com]
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 4:22 PM
To: Mike Kimball
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] SR/Moose: Factory (manual) weight & balance
Ok buddy, I don't get it <grin>. I went and measured everything by sitting
in the plane at the controls, just as you (apparently <grin>) did. I get
17" for the pilot (vs factory of 14.7")--now how in blazes do you get 27"?
Huh? You can't have arms that are 10" longer than mine and legs that are
10" longer than mine. I know your Willie isn't 10" longer than mine <grin>.
So what's up with your measurements?
My passengers come in at 49" (vs the factory value of 51.4"). Note: my
values are only a few inches off of what the factory reports--not that I
want to take ANYTHING the factory says for granted.
I'm thinking you have "issues"...but then we knew that <grin>.
Ted
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Kimball
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:36 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] SR/Moose: Factory (manual) weight & balance
I didn't trust anything regarding weight and balance from MAM. I used the
wheel axle as the datum and then measured for all positions, crew,
passengers, baggage, and rear baggage. I used people's butt positions with
the seats in typical in flight positions (rear seats at the rear-most point
for best leg room), and I measured to the middle of the two baggage areas.
I'm not sure where I got the position for fuel. I probably used the middle
of the tank. This is what I got:
Fuel: 30 inches aft of the datum
Pilot and Co-pilot: Arm = 27 inches aft of the datum
Rear Passengers: Arm = 64 inches aft of the datum
Main Baggage Area: Arm = 96 inches aft of the datum
Rear Baggage Area: Arm = 124 inches aft of the datum
Mike
044SR
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:14 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] SR/Moose: Factory (manual) weight & balance
Hi Ted !
No builders have offered explanations, but one might be:
The W & B Samples in the manual are just that; "SAMPLES" -
- apparently, too many builders take the numbers directly from
the case loading samples and use them for their TC or FAA filings !!
According to the Moose POH, the baggage is 70" from
the main wheel axle, which is often used as the datum point.
It also says the C of G range is: 10.8" to 20.4" aft of that
datum point.
That was from the factory Moose POH - I gather you are
supposed to make up your own POH for your own Moose,
with your own actual weights, to be legal ....
I just checked - I can't find the Moose POH on the web site
anywhere !! Can you see it ??? If not, I will have to get a
copy of the PDF posted to the Moose Tech Support page ASAP !
--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.prosumers.ca/Ramble09
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com
-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Monday 02 March 2009 15:51, Bob Patterson wrote:
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corresponding with me directly. Appreciate it Ted but not to worry. I don't
mind fessing up if I made a boo-boo especially if it could lead to someone
else using bad numbers. I still advocate everyone making your own
measurements. Differences do exist between different builders and pilot
preferences for seat position as mentioned below.
I went and re-measured today. Here's what I got this time:
Pilot - 20 inches
Passengers - 58 inches
Baggage - 81 inches
Rear Baggage - 118 inches
Not sure where I got 27 inches for the pilot the first time since that would
be pretty far back. Getting 20 inches this time is pretty close to the 17
inches Ted got. Just a difference between where we like our seats and the
point we measured to. I measured to just a little bit ahead of the seatback.
With the seatback reclined slightly I was trying to estimate the center of
where a persons weight might fall.
I must have just messed up the first time I measured for passengers. But my
passenger seats are still more rearward than Ted's. That difference could be
where we each chose to measure and also where the rearmost point on the seat
rails are for each of our planes. Anyone using the bench seat will likely
get a different location.
My original baggage number is consistent with measuring to the rearmost
point. I must have decided to use the worst case location. I think I will go
with the new number which is the center of the baggage area and is only two
inches different than Ted's measurement.
I think I might have done something similar with the rear baggage area.
Anyway, I adjusted it to the center of the rear baggage area and I am only
two inches different than Ted's measurement.
Mike
044SR
-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Waltman [mailto:tedwaltman@i1ci.com]
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 4:22 PM
To: Mike Kimball
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] SR/Moose: Factory (manual) weight & balance
Ok buddy, I don't get it <grin>. I went and measured everything by sitting
in the plane at the controls, just as you (apparently <grin>) did. I get
17" for the pilot (vs factory of 14.7")--now how in blazes do you get 27"?
Huh? You can't have arms that are 10" longer than mine and legs that are
10" longer than mine. I know your Willie isn't 10" longer than mine <grin>.
So what's up with your measurements?
My passengers come in at 49" (vs the factory value of 51.4"). Note: my
values are only a few inches off of what the factory reports--not that I
want to take ANYTHING the factory says for granted.
I'm thinking you have "issues"...but then we knew that <grin>.
Ted
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Kimball
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:36 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] SR/Moose: Factory (manual) weight & balance
I didn't trust anything regarding weight and balance from MAM. I used the
wheel axle as the datum and then measured for all positions, crew,
passengers, baggage, and rear baggage. I used people's butt positions with
the seats in typical in flight positions (rear seats at the rear-most point
for best leg room), and I measured to the middle of the two baggage areas.
I'm not sure where I got the position for fuel. I probably used the middle
of the tank. This is what I got:
Fuel: 30 inches aft of the datum
Pilot and Co-pilot: Arm = 27 inches aft of the datum
Rear Passengers: Arm = 64 inches aft of the datum
Main Baggage Area: Arm = 96 inches aft of the datum
Rear Baggage Area: Arm = 124 inches aft of the datum
Mike
044SR
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:14 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] SR/Moose: Factory (manual) weight & balance
Hi Ted !
No builders have offered explanations, but one might be:
The W & B Samples in the manual are just that; "SAMPLES" -
- apparently, too many builders take the numbers directly from
the case loading samples and use them for their TC or FAA filings !!
According to the Moose POH, the baggage is 70" from
the main wheel axle, which is often used as the datum point.
It also says the C of G range is: 10.8" to 20.4" aft of that
datum point.
That was from the factory Moose POH - I gather you are
supposed to make up your own POH for your own Moose,
with your own actual weights, to be legal ....
I just checked - I can't find the Moose POH on the web site
anywhere !! Can you see it ??? If not, I will have to get a
copy of the PDF posted to the Moose Tech Support page ASAP !
--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.prosumers.ca/Ramble09
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com
-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Monday 02 March 2009 15:51, Bob Patterson wrote:
Hi Ted !
I suspect that '30 gallons' was meant to be '30 gallons per side',
for a total of 60 gallons - the original standard fuel capacity....
As for the 49" - I dunno ..... of course, it could be 49" from
SOME point - you CAN choose ANYWHERE as a datum, even somewhere
1 mile in front of the aircraft ! You would expect that all measurements
would relate to the SAME datum point, though ... ;-)
It would be very unusual to measure from an 'operational C of G' ....
a moveable point !
Maybe there will be an explanation forthcoming.
--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.prosumers.ca/Ramble09
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com
-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Monday 02 March 2009 15:15, Ted Waltman wrote:In the Chapter 26 SR-2500 weight and balance section, page 2, they show
a sample weight table. In this table, the factory has a sample fuel
load of 30 gallons weighing in at 360 lbs! What kind of fuel weighs 12
lbs/gallon? Maybe I'm missing something here-someone please let me know
if I've overlooked something.
They also show the baggage arm at 49" in that same sample weight table.
I'm assuming the 49" figure is based off the "Operational center of
gravity" which is calculated at 12.4" on the previous page (49 + 12.4 =
61.4"). The baggage area moment is listed as 65.0" in a previous
figure. As this 65 is close to the 61.4" maybe this is what they are
doing in the table?
Perhaps someone at the factory will see this and issue a corrected page
/ table with better explanations in the technical support section of the
website.
Ted Waltman
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