?????????????????????????????????????????????? Thanks;
???????????????????????????????????????????????? Larry Luckinbill
???????????????????????????????????????????????? SR 117 Moose
-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Waltman <tedwaltman@i1ci.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 7:52 pm
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] "Ask the DAR"
I called the FSDO and asked. Here's their reply (pretty close to a direct
quote):
"Yea, we used to do that. You have to understand we're just so busy now and
of course understaffed so we refer everything to the DIM, or DEM, 'er I'm
not sure of the abbreviation."
Really, that's what they said. I even called back another day and got
another person and it was pretty much the same response.
Ted
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Kimball
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 7:43 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] "Ask the DAR"
I'm assuming that the FAA is just too busy in the Denver area? Why use a
DAR? I had an FAA inspector do my inspection so it was free.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ted
Waltman
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 7:25 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] "Ask the DAR"
I've seen the same (thought not quite that short) abbreviated inspection by
a DAR. What's galling is that they charge $500 around here for an hours
"work" and two hours B.S.ing!
Ted
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Gustafson
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 9:07 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] "Ask the DAR"
After hearing about the thoroughness and knowledge of DAR's,
I watched as a local DAR came out to certify another plane
in the hanger. He spent a total of 20 minutes in the hanger
during his review - 5 minutes checking the plane and 15 minutes
on the paperwork. He did not check the movement of all the
control surfaces. As a result I am trying to find another DAR
to perform my certification.
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Hank &
Vickie Balch
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 9:14 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] "Ask the DAR"
My DAR was more concerned about
the paper work and that all the
placards were in place. The fact that he lives on the airport and has
been watching me every time I worked on the plane probably helped.
Hank
On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 8:33 AM, Ted Waltman <tedwaltman@i1ci.com> wrote:
fearI'm having a DAR do my airworthiness inspection in a week. ?My biggest
areis him asking something such as, "What modifications have you made there
Inspectionnot in the plans, and were such modifications approved by the kit
manufacturer" or some such variation on that question. ?I know it's
experimental, so I should be able to do whatever I darn well please, but
getting some arrogant SOB would ruin my day, to say the least.
Ted
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Hickey
Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 9:01 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] my email exchange with Kitplanes.
I post this for those of you who will be facing an Airworthiness
severalin the US. I think our friends up north may have a stricter set of rules.
While reading the Kitplanes article "Ask the DAR", a sentence in the story
struck a nerve. (I have lots of nerves). Below I have cut and pasted
ifemails that went back and forth.
Mr. Asberry:
I have been reading your articles in the Kitplanes magazine, and given the
experimental nature of homebuilt aircraft, I was a bit surprised to detect
more than a bit of arrogance in the March 2009 issue where you said "Now
neveryou disagree with the inspector about anything......the DAR must deny the
airworthiness certificate."
I am not quite sure what you intended to communicate with that statement,
but it comes across as "I, the all knowing and always correct DAR, can
thebe wrong"
I recently contacted the our local FAA office in Des Moines, Iowa, with
ls to different people over the course of severalquestion, "What instruments are required in a amateur-built experimental
aircraft that is limited to day, vfr, only?"
It took several phone cal
"Askdays to get an answer.
The correct answer, according to our FAA folk, and as posted on the EAA
wouldthe Expert" section of their web site, is none.
That being said, the local FAA folk were quick to point out that they
aircraft?most likely never approve such an aircraft for flight, citing a potential
"danger to the public safety"
What I really would like to know, is where can I find the criteria and
standards that are to be applied to an Experimental, amateur-built
toIt seems to me that without such a source for information, we are reduced
asyour opinion verses mine. And that can lead to unnecessary problems.
Thank You
Tim Hickey
Message received from Marc Cook
Tim:
I've spent time with Mel, and I'm 104% sure he didn't intend to come off
and,arrogant.
I'll forward your query to him, but I suspect the answer is not precisely
none. After all, the aircraft still have to operate under FAR Part 91,
airspeed,I believe, the pertinent parts of that rule requires the basics of
internet.altimeter, slip-skid indicator and compass. Even so, I'll let Mel answer
more thoroughly.
Regards,
Marc
My email to Marc
Thanks for the response, Marc.
I have no doubt that Mel is a good fellow, and I respect his efforts on
behalf of the flying community. That being said, however, I do take
exception to his position that seems to be "my way or no way."
I don't think that he has the authority to require anything more that the
FAR's require.
This question about the instrumentation required in an Experimental
Amateur-built aircraft has been floating around for months on the
k so.It caught my interest because I and my brother are building a Murphy Rebel
that we intend to fly under the provisions of Light Sport. So we intend to
keep the aircraft very light, and very simple. (that being said, please
don't think that we are stupid).
Do I need a compass? I don't thin
regulationDo I need an airspeed indicator? Yes, but not because there is a
therequiring it. (Please feel free to quote the applicable FAR.)
If you would like, here is the intro to 91.205, the FAR that refers to
required equipment.
?91.205 ? Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness
certificates: Instrument and equipment requirements.
(a) General. Except as provided in paragraphs (c)(3) and (e) of this
section, no person may operate a powered civil aircraft with a standard
category U.S. airworthiness certificate in any operation described in
paragraphs (b) through (f) of this section unless that aircraft contains
ofinstruments and equipment specified in those paragraphs (or FAA-approved
equivalents) for that type of operation, and those instruments and items
forequipment are in operable condition.
Please to note that the reg refers to aircraft with a standard category US
airworthiness certificate. This is not the certificate I will hold.
Here is a cut and paste from the EAA web site. It can be found under the
sport pilot section, "Ask the Expert"
? ? Question :
? ? ?What are the required instruments for a sport plane?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
? ? Answer :
? ? ?For an experimental aircraft intended for only daytime VFR flying
there is no minimum instrumentation requirement.
? ? ?I hope you don't take my activity here as that of one just looking
outsomething to complain about, but I am rather truly interested in finding
shouldwhat is required of me as I build this aircraft. The last thing I wish to
experience is setting face to face with a DAR or FAA guy doing the
inspection telling me that he or she can't approve the paperwork because I
don't have a compass. (or some other such thing that someone thinks I
requiringhave, but is unable to quote chapter and verse of the regulations
basis for an interesting article tosuch.)
? ? ?Do I need a compass? Might be the
oranswer that question.
? ? ?Tim Hickey
? ? ?A direct response from Mel Asberry.
? ? ?Tim,
? ? ?>
? ? ?> I'm extremely sorry that my comment sounded arrogant. It certainly
wasn't
? ? ?> meant that way. I guess what I was trying to convey is that the DAR
has
? ? ?> every right to reject an aircraft if he feels that it is not safe
wenot
? ? ?> in compliance with FARs. The "must deny" comment was because once
shouldn't? ? ?> accept an 8130-6 (application for airworthiness), we cannot simply
"walk
? ? ?> away". We must either issue or deny the airworthiness certificate.
? ? ?>
? ? ?> As far as a source for requirements, they are not all found in the
same
? ? ?> place. However if you ever have a disagreement with an inspector
whether
? ? ?> it be FAA or DAR, ask him to show you the information on which he
basis
? ? ?> his decision. If he cannot back up his information then he
basicallyhold
? ? ?> it against you. If he can justify his decision, and he should be
able to
? ? ?> do so, then you will be allowed to correct the discrepancy and
continue
? ? ?> the inspection.
? ? ?>
? ? ?> As for the example you cite about no instruments being required for
? ? ?> daytime VFR, FAR part 91.205 (which is where flight instrument
? ? ?> requirements are listed) starts out by saying that it applies to
"Standard
? ? ?> Certificated Aircraft." Therefore, by definition, it does NOT apply
to
? ? ?> Experimental Category aircraft. Now the operating limitations for
? ? ?> amateur-built aircraft call out that for night and/or IFR part
91.205 DOES
? ? ?> apply. So your information stating that no flight instruments are
required
? ? ?> for daytime VFR is correct.
? ? ?>
? ? ?> A good source of information is FAA Order 8130.2F. This is
our
? ? ?> Bible. This is what we use as a guide for certifying aircraft.
? ? ?>
? ? ?> We DARs are certainly not perfect and we learn continuously. I have
a
sincerely? ? ?> standard saying that "When we stop learning, it's over." I
hope
? ? ?> that I continue learning for some time to come. On one hand we are
? ? ?> challenged to continuously research all sources of FAA rules and
? ? ?> regulations to assure that we do the best job we can. The FAA can
revoke
? ? ?> our designation at any time for any reason. On the other hand, we
also
? ? ?> must treat our customers fairly. Otherwise they will stop calling
us.
? ? ?>
? ? ?> Bottom line is, I work for YOU. I only report to the FAA.
? ? ?>
? ? ?> If I can be of further assistance or if you would just like to
discuss
? ? ?> this or any other matter, feel free to call me.
? ? ?>
? ? ?> Best Regards,
? ? ?>
? ? ?> Mel Asberry
? ? ?All in All, Mel seems to be a good fellow trying to do the DAR's job
fairly. I hope that this info can be of some use to Rebel builders.
? ? ?Those of you building should download section 9 of FAA order 8130.2f
CHG 3. Some good reading there.
? ? ?Tim Hickey
? ? ?R808
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