[rebel-builders] "Ask the DAR"
Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:16 pm
I'm having a DAR do my airworthiness inspection in a week. My biggest fear
is him asking something such as, "What modifications have you made there are
not in the plans, and were such modifications approved by the kit
manufacturer" or some such variation on that question. I know it's
experimental, so I should be able to do whatever I darn well please, but
getting some arrogant SOB would ruin my day, to say the least.
Ted
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Hickey
Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 9:01 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] my email exchange with Kitplanes.
I post this for those of you who will be facing an Airworthiness Inspection
in the US. I think our friends up north may have a stricter set of rules.
While reading the Kitplanes article "Ask the DAR", a sentence in the story
struck a nerve. (I have lots of nerves). Below I have cut and pasted several
emails that went back and forth.
Mr. Asberry:
I have been reading your articles in the Kitplanes magazine, and given the
experimental nature of homebuilt aircraft, I was a bit surprised to detect
more than a bit of arrogance in the March 2009 issue where you said "Now if
you disagree with the inspector about anything......the DAR must deny the
airworthiness certificate."
I am not quite sure what you intended to communicate with that statement,
but it comes across as "I, the all knowing and always correct DAR, can never
be wrong"
I recently contacted the our local FAA office in Des Moines, Iowa, with the
question, "What instruments are required in a amateur-built experimental
aircraft that is limited to day, vfr, only?"
It took several phone calls to different people over the course of several
days to get an answer.
The correct answer, according to our FAA folk, and as posted on the EAA "Ask
the Expert" section of their web site, is none.
That being said, the local FAA folk were quick to point out that they would
most likely never approve such an aircraft for flight, citing a potential
"danger to the public safety"
What I really would like to know, is where can I find the criteria and
standards that are to be applied to an Experimental, amateur-built aircraft?
It seems to me that without such a source for information, we are reduced to
your opinion verses mine. And that can lead to unnecessary problems.
Thank You
Tim Hickey
Message received from Marc Cook
Tim:
I've spent time with Mel, and I'm 104% sure he didn't intend to come off as
arrogant.
I'll forward your query to him, but I suspect the answer is not precisely
none. After all, the aircraft still have to operate under FAR Part 91, and,
I believe, the pertinent parts of that rule requires the basics of airspeed,
altimeter, slip-skid indicator and compass. Even so, I'll let Mel answer
more thoroughly.
Regards,
Marc
My email to Marc
Thanks for the response, Marc.
I have no doubt that Mel is a good fellow, and I respect his efforts on
behalf of the flying community. That being said, however, I do take
exception to his position that seems to be "my way or no way."
I don't think that he has the authority to require anything more that the
FAR's require.
This question about the instrumentation required in an Experimental
Amateur-built aircraft has been floating around for months on the internet.
It caught my interest because I and my brother are building a Murphy Rebel
that we intend to fly under the provisions of Light Sport. So we intend to
keep the aircraft very light, and very simple. (that being said, please
don't think that we are stupid).
Do I need a compass? I don't think so.
Do I need an airspeed indicator? Yes, but not because there is a regulation
requiring it. (Please feel free to quote the applicable FAR.)
If you would like, here is the intro to 91.205, the FAR that refers to
required equipment.
91.205 Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness
certificates: Instrument and equipment requirements.
(a) General. Except as provided in paragraphs (c)(3) and (e) of this
section, no person may operate a powered civil aircraft with a standard
category U.S. airworthiness certificate in any operation described in
paragraphs (b) through (f) of this section unless that aircraft contains the
instruments and equipment specified in those paragraphs (or FAA-approved
equivalents) for that type of operation, and those instruments and items of
equipment are in operable condition.
Please to note that the reg refers to aircraft with a standard category US
airworthiness certificate. This is not the certificate I will hold.
Here is a cut and paste from the EAA web site. It can be found under the
sport pilot section, "Ask the Expert"
Question :
What are the required instruments for a sport plane?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Answer :
For an experimental aircraft intended for only daytime VFR flying
there is no minimum instrumentation requirement.
I hope you don't take my activity here as that of one just looking for
something to complain about, but I am rather truly interested in finding out
what is required of me as I build this aircraft. The last thing I wish to
experience is setting face to face with a DAR or FAA guy doing the
inspection telling me that he or she can't approve the paperwork because I
don't have a compass. (or some other such thing that someone thinks I should
have, but is unable to quote chapter and verse of the regulations requiring
such.)
Do I need a compass? Might be the basis for an interesting article to
answer that question.
Tim Hickey
A direct response from Mel Asberry.
Tim,
fairly. I hope that this info can be of some use to Rebel builders.
Those of you building should download section 9 of FAA order 8130.2f
CHG 3. Some good reading there.
Tim Hickey
R808
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is him asking something such as, "What modifications have you made there are
not in the plans, and were such modifications approved by the kit
manufacturer" or some such variation on that question. I know it's
experimental, so I should be able to do whatever I darn well please, but
getting some arrogant SOB would ruin my day, to say the least.
Ted
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Hickey
Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 9:01 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] my email exchange with Kitplanes.
I post this for those of you who will be facing an Airworthiness Inspection
in the US. I think our friends up north may have a stricter set of rules.
While reading the Kitplanes article "Ask the DAR", a sentence in the story
struck a nerve. (I have lots of nerves). Below I have cut and pasted several
emails that went back and forth.
Mr. Asberry:
I have been reading your articles in the Kitplanes magazine, and given the
experimental nature of homebuilt aircraft, I was a bit surprised to detect
more than a bit of arrogance in the March 2009 issue where you said "Now if
you disagree with the inspector about anything......the DAR must deny the
airworthiness certificate."
I am not quite sure what you intended to communicate with that statement,
but it comes across as "I, the all knowing and always correct DAR, can never
be wrong"
I recently contacted the our local FAA office in Des Moines, Iowa, with the
question, "What instruments are required in a amateur-built experimental
aircraft that is limited to day, vfr, only?"
It took several phone calls to different people over the course of several
days to get an answer.
The correct answer, according to our FAA folk, and as posted on the EAA "Ask
the Expert" section of their web site, is none.
That being said, the local FAA folk were quick to point out that they would
most likely never approve such an aircraft for flight, citing a potential
"danger to the public safety"
What I really would like to know, is where can I find the criteria and
standards that are to be applied to an Experimental, amateur-built aircraft?
It seems to me that without such a source for information, we are reduced to
your opinion verses mine. And that can lead to unnecessary problems.
Thank You
Tim Hickey
Message received from Marc Cook
Tim:
I've spent time with Mel, and I'm 104% sure he didn't intend to come off as
arrogant.
I'll forward your query to him, but I suspect the answer is not precisely
none. After all, the aircraft still have to operate under FAR Part 91, and,
I believe, the pertinent parts of that rule requires the basics of airspeed,
altimeter, slip-skid indicator and compass. Even so, I'll let Mel answer
more thoroughly.
Regards,
Marc
My email to Marc
Thanks for the response, Marc.
I have no doubt that Mel is a good fellow, and I respect his efforts on
behalf of the flying community. That being said, however, I do take
exception to his position that seems to be "my way or no way."
I don't think that he has the authority to require anything more that the
FAR's require.
This question about the instrumentation required in an Experimental
Amateur-built aircraft has been floating around for months on the internet.
It caught my interest because I and my brother are building a Murphy Rebel
that we intend to fly under the provisions of Light Sport. So we intend to
keep the aircraft very light, and very simple. (that being said, please
don't think that we are stupid).
Do I need a compass? I don't think so.
Do I need an airspeed indicator? Yes, but not because there is a regulation
requiring it. (Please feel free to quote the applicable FAR.)
If you would like, here is the intro to 91.205, the FAR that refers to
required equipment.
91.205 Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness
certificates: Instrument and equipment requirements.
(a) General. Except as provided in paragraphs (c)(3) and (e) of this
section, no person may operate a powered civil aircraft with a standard
category U.S. airworthiness certificate in any operation described in
paragraphs (b) through (f) of this section unless that aircraft contains the
instruments and equipment specified in those paragraphs (or FAA-approved
equivalents) for that type of operation, and those instruments and items of
equipment are in operable condition.
Please to note that the reg refers to aircraft with a standard category US
airworthiness certificate. This is not the certificate I will hold.
Here is a cut and paste from the EAA web site. It can be found under the
sport pilot section, "Ask the Expert"
Question :
What are the required instruments for a sport plane?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Answer :
For an experimental aircraft intended for only daytime VFR flying
there is no minimum instrumentation requirement.
I hope you don't take my activity here as that of one just looking for
something to complain about, but I am rather truly interested in finding out
what is required of me as I build this aircraft. The last thing I wish to
experience is setting face to face with a DAR or FAA guy doing the
inspection telling me that he or she can't approve the paperwork because I
don't have a compass. (or some other such thing that someone thinks I should
have, but is unable to quote chapter and verse of the regulations requiring
such.)
Do I need a compass? Might be the basis for an interesting article to
answer that question.
Tim Hickey
A direct response from Mel Asberry.
Tim,
wasn'tI'm extremely sorry that my comment sounded arrogant. It certainly
hasmeant that way. I guess what I was trying to convey is that the DAR
notevery right to reject an aircraft if he feels that it is not safe or
"walkin compliance with FARs. The "must deny" comment was because once we
accept an 8130-6 (application for airworthiness), we cannot simply
sameaway". We must either issue or deny the airworthiness certificate.
As far as a source for requirements, they are not all found in the
whetherplace. However if you ever have a disagreement with an inspector
basisit be FAA or DAR, ask him to show you the information on which he
holdhis decision. If he cannot back up his information then he shouldn't
able toit against you. If he can justify his decision, and he should be
continuedo so, then you will be allowed to correct the discrepancy and
"Standardthe inspection.
As for the example you cite about no instruments being required for
daytime VFR, FAR part 91.205 (which is where flight instrument
requirements are listed) starts out by saying that it applies to
toCertificated Aircraft." Therefore, by definition, it does NOT apply
91.205 DOESExperimental Category aircraft. Now the operating limitations for
amateur-built aircraft call out that for night and/or IFR part
requiredapply. So your information stating that no flight instruments are
ourfor daytime VFR is correct.
A good source of information is FAA Order 8130.2F. This is basically
aBible. This is what we use as a guide for certifying aircraft.
We DARs are certainly not perfect and we learn continuously. I have
hopestandard saying that "When we stop learning, it's over." I sincerely
revokethat I continue learning for some time to come. On one hand we are
challenged to continuously research all sources of FAA rules and
regulations to assure that we do the best job we can. The FAA can
alsoour designation at any time for any reason. On the other hand, we
us.must treat our customers fairly. Otherwise they will stop calling
discussBottom line is, I work for YOU. I only report to the FAA.
If I can be of further assistance or if you would just like to
All in All, Mel seems to be a good fellow trying to do the DAR's jobthis or any other matter, feel free to call me.
Best Regards,
Mel Asberry
fairly. I hope that this info can be of some use to Rebel builders.
Those of you building should download section 9 of FAA order 8130.2f
CHG 3. Some good reading there.
Tim Hickey
R808
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