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[rebel-builders] my email exchange with Kitplanes.

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:16 pm
by Bob Patterson
Hi Tim !

We do indeed have slightly stricter set of rules 'up north' !
Given that you might want to fly up & visit sometime, it might
be worth considering .... ;-)

Our minimum FLIGHT instruments are: airspeed indicator,
altimeter, and magnetic compass. Additionally, as I understand it,
ENGINE instrumentation is: Tachometer, -- plus oil temperature &
pressure guages IF it is not a 2-stroke ! -- Plus, coolant temp.
(& possibly pressure) guages if necessary for safe engine
operation ... (and extra stuff if it is a turbine ... ) ;-)

They do go into some detail on the compass scale, & altimeter type,
but the airspeed indicator could be a plate & spring on a wing strut,
with a speed scale - as used on the old Tiger Moths ! :-)
(Think they want 1 degree or 2 degree markings on the compass scale,
eliminating cheap automotive units...) ... and, no, GPS won't do !

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.prosumers.ca/Ramble09

http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Monday 09 March 2009 03:01, Tim Hickey wrote:
I post this for those of you who will be facing an Airworthiness
Inspection in the US. I think our friends up north may have a stricter set
of rules.

While reading the Kitplanes article "Ask the DAR", a sentence in the story
struck a nerve. (I have lots of nerves). Below I have cut and pasted
several emails that went back and forth.

Mr. Asberry:
I have been reading your articles in the Kitplanes magazine, and given the
experimental nature of homebuilt aircraft, I was a bit surprised to detect
more than a bit of arrogance in the March 2009 issue where you said "Now
if you disagree with the inspector about anything......the DAR must deny
the airworthiness certificate."

I am not quite sure what you intended to communicate with that statement,
but it comes across as "I, the all knowing and always correct DAR, can
never be wrong"

I recently contacted the our local FAA office in Des Moines, Iowa, with
the question, "What instruments are required in a amateur-built
experimental aircraft that is limited to day, vfr, only?"
It took several phone calls to different people over the course of several
days to get an answer.

The correct answer, according to our FAA folk, and as posted on the EAA
"Ask the Expert" section of their web site, is none.

That being said, the local FAA folk were quick to point out that they
would most likely never approve such an aircraft for flight, citing a
potential "danger to the public safety"

What I really would like to know, is where can I find the criteria and
standards that are to be applied to an Experimental, amateur-built
aircraft? It seems to me that without such a source for information, we
are reduced to your opinion verses mine. And that can lead to unnecessary
problems.


Thank You

Tim Hickey

Message received from Marc Cook


Tim:


I've spent time with Mel, and I'm 104% sure he didn't intend to come off
as arrogant.


I'll forward your query to him, but I suspect the answer is not precisely
none. After all, the aircraft still have to operate under FAR Part 91,
and, I believe, the pertinent parts of that rule requires the basics of
airspeed, altimeter, slip-skid indicator and compass. Even so, I'll let
Mel answer more thoroughly.


Regards,


Marc


My email to Marc


Thanks for the response, Marc.

I have no doubt that Mel is a good fellow, and I respect his efforts on
behalf of the flying community. That being said, however, I do take
exception to his position that seems to be "my way or no way."
I don't think that he has the authority to require anything more that the
FAR's require.

This question about the instrumentation required in an Experimental
Amateur-built aircraft has been floating around for months on the
internet. It caught my interest because I and my brother are building a
Murphy Rebel that we intend to fly under the provisions of Light Sport. So
we intend to keep the aircraft very light, and very simple. (that being
said, please don't think that we are stupid).
Do I need a compass? I don't think so.
Do I need an airspeed indicator? Yes, but not because there is a
regulation requiring it. (Please feel free to quote the applicable FAR.)

If you would like, here is the intro to 91.205, the FAR that refers to
required equipment.


91.205 Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness
certificates: Instrument and equipment requirements.
(a) General. Except as provided in paragraphs (c)(3) and (e) of this
section, no person may operate a powered civil aircraft with a standard
category U.S. airworthiness certificate in any operation described in
paragraphs (b) through (f) of this section unless that aircraft contains
the instruments and equipment specified in those paragraphs (or
FAA-approved equivalents) for that type of operation, and those
instruments and items of equipment are in operable condition.



Please to note that the reg refers to aircraft with a standard category US
airworthiness certificate. This is not the certificate I will hold.



Here is a cut and paste from the EAA web site. It can be found under the
sport pilot section, "Ask the Expert"




Question :
What are the required instruments for a sport plane?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Answer :
For an experimental aircraft intended for only daytime VFR flying
there is no minimum instrumentation requirement.


I hope you don't take my activity here as that of one just looking
for something to complain about, but I am rather truly interested in
finding out what is required of me as I build this aircraft. The last
thing I wish to experience is setting face to face with a DAR or FAA guy
doing the inspection telling me that he or she can't approve the paperwork
because I don't have a compass. (or some other such thing that someone
thinks I should have, but is unable to quote chapter and verse of the
regulations requiring such.)

Do I need a compass? Might be the basis for an interesting article
to answer that question.

Tim Hickey

A direct response from Mel Asberry.


Tim,
I'm extremely sorry that my comment sounded arrogant. It certainly
wasn't
meant that way. I guess what I was trying to convey is that the
DAR
has
every right to reject an aircraft if he feels that it is not safe
or
not
in compliance with FARs. The "must deny" comment was because once
we accept an 8130-6 (application for airworthiness), we cannot
simply
"walk
away". We must either issue or deny the airworthiness certificate.

As far as a source for requirements, they are not all found in the
same
place. However if you ever have a disagreement with an inspector
whether
it be FAA or DAR, ask him to show you the information on which he
basis
his decision. If he cannot back up his information then he
shouldn't
hold
it against you. If he can justify his decision, and he should be
able to
do so, then you will be allowed to correct the discrepancy and
continue
the inspection.

As for the example you cite about no instruments being required
for daytime VFR, FAR part 91.205 (which is where flight instrument
requirements are listed) starts out by saying that it applies to
"Standard
Certificated Aircraft." Therefore, by definition, it does NOT
apply
to
Experimental Category aircraft. Now the operating limitations for
amateur-built aircraft call out that for night and/or IFR part
91.205 DOES
apply. So your information stating that no flight instruments are
required
for daytime VFR is correct.

A good source of information is FAA Order 8130.2F. This is
basically
our
Bible. This is what we use as a guide for certifying aircraft.

We DARs are certainly not perfect and we learn continuously. I
have
a
standard saying that "When we stop learning, it's over." I
sincerely
hope
that I continue learning for some time to come. On one hand we are
challenged to continuously research all sources of FAA rules and
regulations to assure that we do the best job we can. The FAA can
revoke
our designation at any time for any reason. On the other hand, we
also
must treat our customers fairly. Otherwise they will stop calling
us.
Bottom line is, I work for YOU. I only report to the FAA.

If I can be of further assistance or if you would just like to
discuss
this or any other matter, feel free to call me.

Best Regards,

Mel Asberry
All in All, Mel seems to be a good fellow trying to do the DAR's job
fairly. I hope that this info can be of some use to Rebel builders.

Those of you building should download section 9 of FAA order 8130.2f
CHG 3. Some good reading there.


Tim Hickey
R808


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