[rebel-builders] Rebel Instrument Panel - Dynon D180 --- Powder Coating,
Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:07 pm
Hi Guys
I'm putting a lot of work experience to good use tonight, let's talk about
stainless steel screws and rivets now ;-)
OK, seriously, we use a lot of stainless fasteners to on that (shipboard) crane
I talked about in my other mail this evening and the material strength (yield
strength, not breaking) we use for the fasteners is the annealed (there's that
word again!) strength which for stainless steel is about 30,000 psi. We use
that value unless we buy "rated" strength fasteners because you can't depend on
it being anything greater.
Without doing any numbers, I expect that #6 screws would be stronger than the
rivits in the condition which I understand that MAM uses for their calculations
(ie without the mandrel for strength). The aluminum is pretty soft in those
rivets, the breaking stress is probably the 25 - 30, 000 psi range with yield
probably down in the 10 - 15,000 psi range. If you replace the rivets with
screws at one for one than I can't imagine it being less robust.
The only thing I might do differently would be to use machine screws vs sheet
metal screws (if I understood that right Eric), they'd have a better pull-out.
FWIW, you probably have enough that it doesn't matter but it's worth keepin an
eye on them to make sure none loosen.
Cheers,
Dave
Eric Fogelin wrote:
David A. Ricker
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada
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I'm putting a lot of work experience to good use tonight, let's talk about
stainless steel screws and rivets now ;-)
OK, seriously, we use a lot of stainless fasteners to on that (shipboard) crane
I talked about in my other mail this evening and the material strength (yield
strength, not breaking) we use for the fasteners is the annealed (there's that
word again!) strength which for stainless steel is about 30,000 psi. We use
that value unless we buy "rated" strength fasteners because you can't depend on
it being anything greater.
Without doing any numbers, I expect that #6 screws would be stronger than the
rivits in the condition which I understand that MAM uses for their calculations
(ie without the mandrel for strength). The aluminum is pretty soft in those
rivets, the breaking stress is probably the 25 - 30, 000 psi range with yield
probably down in the 10 - 15,000 psi range. If you replace the rivets with
screws at one for one than I can't imagine it being less robust.
The only thing I might do differently would be to use machine screws vs sheet
metal screws (if I understood that right Eric), they'd have a better pull-out.
FWIW, you probably have enough that it doesn't matter but it's worth keepin an
eye on them to make sure none loosen.
Cheers,
Dave
Eric Fogelin wrote:
--I used #6 stainless sheet metal machine screws in nutplates using the same
hole spacing specified in the manual for the rivets.
That is a lot of screws. Dick Wampach wrote in a separate response that
these should be structural.
I don't have the engineering background, so take these comments with a grain
of salt and check further before you go with screws.
As I recall the shear strength of the 1/8" avex rivets we use are about
25-30,000 psi. I think that a #6 stainless machine screw is higher.
If true, you could use fewer screws, save weight and time installing nut
plates. You should use nutplates as everyone has mentioned, the panel is
structural.
At the end of the day, I think fabricating, painting your panel and testing
all of your avionics and instruments prior to final panel install is 90% of
the benefit. If you screw in place, you may get a little benefit in the
future if you make massive changes. If you don't think you will make big
changes, don't do the nutplate work and just final rivet when everything
checks out.
Eric
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Ricker
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 5:32 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Instrument Panel - Dynon D180 --- Powder
Coating, Nutplates
Eric
I've been following the discussion on your panel and it's a good motivation
for
our project which is off-line for the moment for house building/moving.
Nice
piece of work you've done.
You mentioned powder coating the panel. From what we understand from MAM
the
panel is a structural part of the airframe so that may not be a good idea.
The
curing temperature for powder coating is generally above the temperature
which
will anneal (remove heat treatment) the 6061-T6 making its yield strength
much
lower. I'm told there are some lower temperature powder coating processes
but
for the work I do with structural aluminum (marine cranes) we consider the
process too risky.
Speaking of structural, I also see you mentioned using screws to hold the
panel
in, an idea I like, looking at the in-plane photo are the locations
essentially
where the rivits would have been used? What size screws, about #6?
Cheers,
Dave
Elite 583
Eric Fogelin wrote:
goI went back and forth on white text or black. With a grey panel, you canineither way. I used vinyl labels which should stand up to wear and tear. If
you knew that you would never change your panel, you could get it powder
coated and labels silk screened.
But, the fun of building your own plane is that you can change your panelItthe future. I know and knew I would. Right now there is a temporary label
marked GRUMP. Not only does it describe my personality, this also helps
remind me to put the water rudders and landing gear in the correct place.ais a variation of the standard takeoff and landing GUMP:
G - Gas
R - Water "R"udders
U - Undercarriage
M - Mixture
P - Prop
In the future I may modify the panel and add lights, horns, mirrors, more
labels, or just never get distracted during landing.
Before you decide on a center console, do a mockup with cardboard or scrap
aluminum. I went through a couple of design ideas before I found one that
would work and was sturdy.
I plan a 3rd seat in the future. Plenty of room in the back and CG is notorproblem. An adult would be comfortable for a $100 hamburger ride, a childdid.teenager, no problem.
Eric
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
james.smith@dcsol.com
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 8:27 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Instrument Panel - Dynon D180
Eric,
Your panel looks great. I'm going to use the clear tape labels just like
yours
except I am thinking of black ink instead of white, although now I have a
good example of the the alternative option.
Hopefully there will be two pilots in the family in the future as well, my
wife
started her primary instruction a few years ago but quit when she got
pregnant with our first child. Hopefully she'll start up again once the
Rebel is
airborn and the fact that we installed a 3rd seat for our now 3 year old
daughter.
I sure do like the simplicty of the Garmin stack but the only way it would
work
in an Rebel panel would be to add the drop down center console like youPanelJames
On 11/29/2008 4:02 PM, elist@whidbey.com wrote to rebel-builders:
-> I posted pictures of my Elite amphib panel in the Elite InstrumentDynon-> section. Also shows the center console for the hydraulic selector, etc.
->
-> We have similar layouts. I went for the separate Dynon D100 and D120 as
-> there are 2 pilots in the household and you can switch EFIS and EMS
screens
-> between the units. Flying pilot just switches the screens to have full
-> flying display in front of them.
->
-> Less expensive to go with the D180 and a bit less weight. But, theinland.-> units weigh so little, it doesn't really matter. One Dynon unit weighs
about
-> the same or less than a turn and bank, but includes every flight
instrument
-> imaginable.
->
-> I also have not installed a backup ASI or Altimeter and I certified my
-> amphib for VFR and IFR. Unlike a certified aircraft which must meet the
-> requirements of Part 23 (in the US), homebuilts need only comply with
-> 91.205. It is up to the builder to decide what they feel is safe.
->
-> I plan on using mine to pop through the thin West Coast marine layers
that
-> we have so that I can fly to/from beautiful sunny and warm lakesthe->
-> Right now, I'm still in my 40 hour test phase and learning to become
friends
-> with a glass cockpit. I've gotten mighty used to old steam gauges andInstrument-> transition to speed and altitude tapes is a bit of work. Engine gauges
with
-> digital numbers are not intuitive like needles. The Dynon units include
-> needles and numbers, but I still have to think when I look at the
screens.
-> And I'm a computer geek.
->
-> Lots of fun.
->
-> Eric
-> Elite Amphib 645E
->
->
->
-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
-> james.smith@dcsol.com
-> Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 8:27 PM
-> To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
-> Subject: [rebel-builders] Rebel Instrument Panel - Dynon D180
->
-> I have posted a picture of my instrument panel under the Rebeland-> Panel section of files if anyone is interested in what the Dynon D180
would
-> look like in a Rebel. I am using the D180 which is the combined EFISwill-> EMS
-> system. Also have panel mounted Garmin 196/496 series GPS and Terra
Com
-> and Transponder. Decided against backup ASI and Altimeter although
there
-> is room to add 2 1/4 gauges under the Dynon at a later date if desired.
The
->
-> garmin, radios and Throttle are deadcenter of the panel. Now that the
rough
->
-> cut is finished, we'll take apart to prime, paint and label. Panel--be
-> a light
-> gray interior color.
->
-> Anyway, just my take on a lightweight, new age panel.
->
-> James Smith
-> Rebel 424R
->
->
->
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David A. Ricker
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada
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David A. Ricker
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada
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