The Murphy Builders Site

Hi Frank !

Good to hear from you !

I had kinks - and eventually cracks - in my corner wraps too !
On a previous Rebel ... They were the originals, probably like
yours - FUS-10's, of .020.

It is now a standard "Ontario Mod" to upgrade ALL 8 corner wraps
to FUS-70's, of .025 thick ....

You can just order new FUS-70's from the factory. When replacing
them, some builders do not trim them completely to size, leaving
extra material so they can drill & install a staggered second row of rivets
along the edges, for a little extra stiffness. Some also leave them a
bit longer at the back, to double up there too. Others have added
a piece of wing stringer on the inside, along the bend, rivetted
in place - again, for extra stiffness.

In a pinch, to keep flying temporarily, you can patch the FUS-10's
on the inside and/or outside, with a piece of .025 and lots of rivets ....

Not sure about those rivets at the bottom of the windshield -
Wayne has strongly suggested that it's a good idea to add a second
row of staggered rivets down the door post. That might help
with your problem there.

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.prosumers.ca/Ramble09

http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Sunday 30 November 2008 00:24, frankarndt@dcsol.com wrote:

Would have been nice if you fixed my title too!

Seasons greetings everyone.
I have introduced myself years ago on this site (thread titled
"Smacking it on the runway") and I continue to lurk an learn from this
site every day. For that I thank you all.
So let me get to the point. After 250 perfect take-offs and 245 less
than perfect landings (wish I could blame the Rebel, but I can't) I am in
the need of some repair advice.
Lower front corner rounds had a kink in them right from the start and
the kink has developed into a crack. I think these are the thinner (.25
thick) and my research on this site tells me that there are upgraded ones
(.35 or .40 thick) so I think that is fairly straight forward. Can I just
order these from the factory? Any tricks to replace that I should know
about?

One other sign of fatigue is on the fusalage at the lower most part of
the front windshield. I found a few rivets here that had the heads sheared
off. I'm looking for some/any suggestions here. I will post some pics (35k
each) to the files sections right after I send this post.

Would appreciate you comments.

Frank
http://home.cogeco.ca/~farndt/index.htm

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Thanks for Bob
I hadn't thought of a double row of rivets on the corner rounds. The
weakness doesn't seem to be the rivets in this area but rather the corner
round itself. I like the idea of a stringer along the corner but I feared
this would weaken the corner and give more potential stress risers. So no
one has went heavier than .020 that you are aware of?
Concerning the sheared rivets, I did consider running a second row of
staggered rivets but the rivets along the door post seem to be in good
shape. I was thinking of drilling out and using larger (stronger rivets) to
fix this. Any thoughts on this? Has no one else run into this? If not, it
begs the question if there in another underlying weakness that I am just
not quite understanding yet.

In any case thanks for the reply.
Frank

On 11/29/2008 4:00 PM, bobp@prosumers.ca wrote to rebel-builders:

->
-> Hi Frank !
->
-> Good to hear from you !
->
-> I had kinks - and eventually cracks - in my corner wraps too !
-> On a previous Rebel ... They were the originals, probably like
-> yours - FUS-10's, of .020.
->
-> It is now a standard "Ontario Mod" to upgrade ALL 8 corner wraps
-> to FUS-70's, of .025 thick ....
->
-> You can just order new FUS-70's from the factory. When replacing
-> them, some builders do not trim them completely to size, leaving
-> extra material so they can drill & install a staggered second row of rivets
-> along the edges, for a little extra stiffness. Some also leave them a
-> bit longer at the back, to double up there too. Others have added
-> a piece of wing stringer on the inside, along the bend, rivetted
-> in place - again, for extra stiffness.
->
-> In a pinch, to keep flying temporarily, you can patch the FUS-10's
-> on the inside and/or outside, with a piece of .025 and lots of rivets ....
->
-> Not sure about those rivets at the bottom of the windshield -
-> Wayne has strongly suggested that it's a good idea to add a second
-> row of staggered rivets down the door post. That might help
-> with your problem there.
->
-> --
-> ......bobp
-> bobp@prosumers.ca
-> http://www.prosumers.ca/Ramble09
->
-> http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
-> http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
-> http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com
->
-> -------------------------------orig.-------------------------
-> On Sunday 30 November 2008 00:24, frankarndt@dcsol.com wrote:
-> > Would have been nice if you fixed my title too!
-> >
-> > Seasons greetings everyone.
-> > I have introduced myself years ago on this site (thread titled
-> > "Smacking it on the runway") and I continue to lurk an learn from this
-> > site every day. For that I thank you all.
-> > So let me get to the point. After 250 perfect take-offs and 245 less
-> > than perfect landings (wish I could blame the Rebel, but I can't) I am in
-> > the need of some repair advice.
-> > Lower front corner rounds had a kink in them right from the start and
-> > the kink has developed into a crack. I think these are the thinner (.25
-> > thick) and my research on this site tells me that there are upgraded ones
-> > (.35 or .40 thick) so I think that is fairly straight forward. Can I just
-> > order these from the factory? Any tricks to replace that I should know
-> > about?
-> >
-> > One other sign of fatigue is on the fusalage at the lower most part of
-> > the front windshield. I found a few rivets here that had the heads sheared
-> > off. I'm looking for some/any suggestions here. I will post some pics (35k
-> > each) to the files sections right after I send this post.
-> >
-> > Would appreciate you comments.
-> >
-> > Frank
-> > http://home.cogeco.ca/~farndt/index.htm
-> >
->




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Hi Frank !

The double row of rivets just stiffens things up a bit,
reducing flex at the bend. They are spaced about 1/2 to 1"
from the first row, and staggered....

The FUS-70's are .025 -- so, yes, thicker than the original
Fus-10's, which are only .020. This is a 25% increase in
thickness, and much stronger. I have not seen any cracking
in the .025 FUS-70 corner wraps.

There IS a FUS-453 (??) that is even thicker, at .032,
as used on the Elite - but this is generally considered 'overkill',
and is much harder to install than the FUS-70's ...

Had a look at your pics - some of those windshield area rivets don't
seem to have proper edge distance ! Have never seen rivets sheared
in that location.... If the holes are elongated, then yes - drill them out
to 3/16" and use the larger rivets. Try to enlarge in the direction
that will give most edge distance. Perhaps a few more rivets further
aft would help ... Can't remember how that area is supposed to
be rivetted, but seem to recall more rivets on some Rebels ...
Flexing at the door post could put extra load on those rivets farther
forward - an extra row wouldn't hurt, for later hard landings !

I felt the same way about the stringer, but several have done that,
or a channel, with no problems .... as always, your call ! ;-)

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.prosumers.ca/Ramble09

http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Sunday 30 November 2008 01:20, frankarndt@dcsol.com wrote:

Thanks for Bob
I hadn't thought of a double row of rivets on the corner rounds. The
weakness doesn't seem to be the rivets in this area but rather the corner
round itself. I like the idea of a stringer along the corner but I feared
this would weaken the corner and give more potential stress risers. So no
one has went heavier than .020 that you are aware of?
Concerning the sheared rivets, I did consider running a second row of
staggered rivets but the rivets along the door post seem to be in good
shape. I was thinking of drilling out and using larger (stronger rivets)
to fix this. Any thoughts on this? Has no one else run into this? If not,
it begs the question if there in another underlying weakness that I am
just not quite understanding yet.

In any case thanks for the reply.
Frank

On 11/29/2008 4:00 PM, bobp@prosumers.ca wrote to rebel-builders:

->
-> Hi Frank !
->
-> Good to hear from you !
->
-> I had kinks - and eventually cracks - in my corner wraps too !
-> On a previous Rebel ... They were the originals, probably like
-> yours - FUS-10's, of .020.
->
-> It is now a standard "Ontario Mod" to upgrade ALL 8 corner wraps
-> to FUS-70's, of .025 thick ....
->
-> You can just order new FUS-70's from the factory. When replacing
-> them, some builders do not trim them completely to size, leaving
-> extra material so they can drill & install a staggered second row of
rivets -> along the edges, for a little extra stiffness. Some also leave
them a -> bit longer at the back, to double up there too. Others have
added -> a piece of wing stringer on the inside, along the bend, rivetted
-> in place - again, for extra stiffness.
->
-> In a pinch, to keep flying temporarily, you can patch the FUS-10's
-> on the inside and/or outside, with a piece of .025 and lots of rivets
.... ->
-> Not sure about those rivets at the bottom of the windshield -
-> Wayne has strongly suggested that it's a good idea to add a second
-> row of staggered rivets down the door post. That might help
-> with your problem there.
->
-> --
-> ......bobp
-> bobp@prosumers.ca
-> http://www.prosumers.ca/Ramble09
->
-> http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
-> http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
-> http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com
->
-> -------------------------------orig.-------------------------
-> On Sunday 30 November 2008 00:24, frankarndt@dcsol.com wrote:
-> > Would have been nice if you fixed my title too!
-> >
-> > Seasons greetings everyone.
-> > I have introduced myself years ago on this site (thread titled
-> > "Smacking it on the runway") and I continue to lurk an learn from
this -> > site every day. For that I thank you all.
-> > So let me get to the point. After 250 perfect take-offs and 245
less -> > than perfect landings (wish I could blame the Rebel, but I
can't) I am in -> > the need of some repair advice.
-> > Lower front corner rounds had a kink in them right from the start
and -> > the kink has developed into a crack. I think these are the
thinner (.25 -> > thick) and my research on this site tells me that there
are upgraded ones -> > (.35 or .40 thick) so I think that is fairly
straight forward. Can I just -> > order these from the factory? Any tricks
to replace that I should know -> > about?
-> >
-> > One other sign of fatigue is on the fusalage at the lower most part
of -> > the front windshield. I found a few rivets here that had the heads
sheared -> > off. I'm looking for some/any suggestions here. I will post
some pics (35k -> > each) to the files sections right after I send this
post.
-> >
-> > Would appreciate you comments.
-> >
-> > Frank
-> > http://home.cogeco.ca/~farndt/index.htm
-> >
->

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I've never seen them shear there..even in total wrecks... and Bob is
correct... your's was not built to the manual in that area. Should be an
angled row of rivets on that Fus-9 heading towards the carrythru. When you
get that fixed up.. drill an interpitched set of #30 holes up the door post
on those Fus-9's for RV1414's.... and the top 4 holes drill to #11 and stick
RV1613's in them.

The corner wrap has been hit I bet, considering it cracked. If they are
.020.. get them out of there and replace with .025 Fus-70's. If already
.025.. I'd patch it and carry on.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bobp@prosumers.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - Sheared OFF Rivets

Hi Frank !

The double row of rivets just stiffens things up a bit,
reducing flex at the bend. They are spaced about 1/2 to 1"
from the first row, and staggered....

The FUS-70's are .025 -- so, yes, thicker than the original
Fus-10's, which are only .020. This is a 25% increase in
thickness, and much stronger. I have not seen any cracking
in the .025 FUS-70 corner wraps.

There IS a FUS-453 (??) that is even thicker, at .032,
as used on the Elite - but this is generally considered 'overkill',
and is much harder to install than the FUS-70's ...

Had a look at your pics - some of those windshield area rivets don't
seem to have proper edge distance ! Have never seen rivets sheared
in that location.... If the holes are elongated, then yes - drill them
out
to 3/16" and use the larger rivets. Try to enlarge in the direction
that will give most edge distance. Perhaps a few more rivets further
aft would help ... Can't remember how that area is supposed to
be rivetted, but seem to recall more rivets on some Rebels ...
Flexing at the door post could put extra load on those rivets farther
forward - an extra row wouldn't hurt, for later hard landings !

I felt the same way about the stringer, but several have done that,
or a channel, with no problems .... as always, your call ! ;-)

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.prosumers.ca/Ramble09

http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Sunday 30 November 2008 01:20, frankarndt@dcsol.com wrote:

Thanks for Bob
I hadn't thought of a double row of rivets on the corner rounds. The
weakness doesn't seem to be the rivets in this area but rather the corner
round itself. I like the idea of a stringer along the corner but I feared
this would weaken the corner and give more potential stress risers. So no
one has went heavier than .020 that you are aware of?
Concerning the sheared rivets, I did consider running a second row of
staggered rivets but the rivets along the door post seem to be in good
shape. I was thinking of drilling out and using larger (stronger rivets)
to fix this. Any thoughts on this? Has no one else run into this? If not,
it begs the question if there in another underlying weakness that I am
just not quite understanding yet.

In any case thanks for the reply.
Frank

On 11/29/2008 4:00 PM, bobp@prosumers.ca wrote to rebel-builders:

->
-> Hi Frank !
->
-> Good to hear from you !
->
-> I had kinks - and eventually cracks - in my corner wraps too !
-> On a previous Rebel ... They were the originals, probably like
-> yours - FUS-10's, of .020.
->
-> It is now a standard "Ontario Mod" to upgrade ALL 8 corner wraps
-> to FUS-70's, of .025 thick ....
->
-> You can just order new FUS-70's from the factory. When replacing
-> them, some builders do not trim them completely to size, leaving
-> extra material so they can drill & install a staggered second row of
rivets -> along the edges, for a little extra stiffness. Some also leave
them a -> bit longer at the back, to double up there too. Others have
added -> a piece of wing stringer on the inside, along the bend, rivetted
-> in place - again, for extra stiffness.
->
-> In a pinch, to keep flying temporarily, you can patch the FUS-10's
-> on the inside and/or outside, with a piece of .025 and lots of rivets
.... ->
-> Not sure about those rivets at the bottom of the windshield -
-> Wayne has strongly suggested that it's a good idea to add a second
-> row of staggered rivets down the door post. That might help
-> with your problem there.
->
-> --
-> ......bobp
-> bobp@prosumers.ca
-> http://www.prosumers.ca/Ramble09
->
-> http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
-> http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
-> http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com
->
-> -------------------------------orig.-------------------------
-> On Sunday 30 November 2008 00:24, frankarndt@dcsol.com wrote:
-> > Would have been nice if you fixed my title too!
-> >
-> > Seasons greetings everyone.
-> > I have introduced myself years ago on this site (thread titled
-> > "Smacking it on the runway") and I continue to lurk an learn from
this -> > site every day. For that I thank you all.
-> > So let me get to the point. After 250 perfect take-offs and 245
less -> > than perfect landings (wish I could blame the Rebel, but I
can't) I am in -> > the need of some repair advice.
-> > Lower front corner rounds had a kink in them right from the start
and -> > the kink has developed into a crack. I think these are the
thinner (.25 -> > thick) and my research on this site tells me that there
are upgraded ones -> > (.35 or .40 thick) so I think that is fairly
straight forward. Can I just -> > order these from the factory? Any
tricks
to replace that I should know -> > about?
-> >
-> > One other sign of fatigue is on the fusalage at the lower most
part
of -> > the front windshield. I found a few rivets here that had the
heads
sheared -> > off. I'm looking for some/any suggestions here. I will post
some pics (35k -> > each) to the files sections right after I send this
post.
-> >
-> > Would appreciate you comments.
-> >
-> > Frank
-> > http://home.cogeco.ca/~farndt/index.htm
-> >
->

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Ok guys, good catch. Looks like its actually missing 2 angled rows of
riviets! That's exactly the push I needed. Nice to have opinions from
people that have been there and done that.
If anyone ever needs an opinion on how to fly a Rebel on half the hp
that most have, and a runway half the length of most that's when I can
pitch in!

Thanks to both of you.
If I run into any issues I might post again, this should get me going.

Thanks
Frank

On 11/29/2008 5:03 PM, oifa@irishfield.on.ca wrote to rebel-builders:

-> I've never seen them shear there..even in total wrecks... and Bob is
-> correct... your's was not built to the manual in that area. Should be an
-> angled row of rivets on that Fus-9 heading towards the carrythru. When you
-> get that fixed up.. drill an interpitched set of #30 holes up the door post
-> on those Fus-9's for RV1414's.... and the top 4 holes drill to #11 and
stick
-> RV1613's in them.
->
-> The corner wrap has been hit I bet, considering it cracked. If they are
-> .020.. get them out of there and replace with .025 Fus-70's. If already
-> .025.. I'd patch it and carry on.
->
-> ----- Original Message -----
-> From: "Bob Patterson" <bobp@prosumers.ca>
-> To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
-> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 8:40 PM
-> Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - Sheared OFF Rivets
->
->
-> >
-> > Hi Frank !
-> >
-> > The double row of rivets just stiffens things up a bit,
-> > reducing flex at the bend. They are spaced about 1/2 to 1"
-> > from the first row, and staggered....
-> >
-> > The FUS-70's are .025 -- so, yes, thicker than the original
-> > Fus-10's, which are only .020. This is a 25% increase in
-> > thickness, and much stronger. I have not seen any cracking
-> > in the .025 FUS-70 corner wraps.
-> >
-> > There IS a FUS-453 (??) that is even thicker, at .032,
-> > as used on the Elite - but this is generally considered 'overkill',
-> > and is much harder to install than the FUS-70's ...
-> >
-> > Had a look at your pics - some of those windshield area rivets don't
-> > seem to have proper edge distance ! Have never seen rivets sheared
-> > in that location.... If the holes are elongated, then yes - drill them
-> > out
-> > to 3/16" and use the larger rivets. Try to enlarge in the direction
-> > that will give most edge distance. Perhaps a few more rivets further
-> > aft would help ... Can't remember how that area is supposed to
-> > be rivetted, but seem to recall more rivets on some Rebels ...
-> > Flexing at the door post could put extra load on those rivets farther
-> > forward - an extra row wouldn't hurt, for later hard landings !
-> >
-> > I felt the same way about the stringer, but several have done that,
-> > or a channel, with no problems .... as always, your call ! ;-)
-> >
-> > --
-> > ......bobp
-> > bobp@prosumers.ca
-> > http://www.prosumers.ca/Ramble09
-> >
-> > http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
-> > http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
-> > http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com
-> >
-> > -------------------------------orig.-------------------------
-> > On Sunday 30 November 2008 01:20, frankarndt@dcsol.com wrote:
-> >> Thanks for Bob
-> >> I hadn't thought of a double row of rivets on the corner rounds. The
-> >> weakness doesn't seem to be the rivets in this area but rather the corner
-> >> round itself. I like the idea of a stringer along the corner but I feared
-> >> this would weaken the corner and give more potential stress risers. So no
-> >> one has went heavier than .020 that you are aware of?
-> >> Concerning the sheared rivets, I did consider running a second row of
-> >> staggered rivets but the rivets along the door post seem to be in good
-> >> shape. I was thinking of drilling out and using larger (stronger rivets)
-> >> to fix this. Any thoughts on this? Has no one else run into this? If not,
-> >> it begs the question if there in another underlying weakness that I am
-> >> just not quite understanding yet.
-> >>
-> >> In any case thanks for the reply.
-> >> Frank
-> >>
-> >> On 11/29/2008 4:00 PM, bobp@prosumers.ca wrote to rebel-builders:
-> >>
-> >> ->
-> >> -> Hi Frank !
-> >> ->
-> >> -> Good to hear from you !
-> >> ->
-> >> -> I had kinks - and eventually cracks - in my corner wraps too !
-> >> -> On a previous Rebel ... They were the originals, probably like
-> >> -> yours - FUS-10's, of .020.
-> >> ->
-> >> -> It is now a standard "Ontario Mod" to upgrade ALL 8 corner wraps
-> >> -> to FUS-70's, of .025 thick ....
-> >> ->
-> >> -> You can just order new FUS-70's from the factory. When replacing
-> >> -> them, some builders do not trim them completely to size, leaving
-> >> -> extra material so they can drill & install a staggered second row of
-> >> rivets -> along the edges, for a little extra stiffness. Some also leave
-> >> them a -> bit longer at the back, to double up there too. Others have
-> >> added -> a piece of wing stringer on the inside, along the bend, rivetted
-> >> -> in place - again, for extra stiffness.
-> >> ->
-> >> -> In a pinch, to keep flying temporarily, you can patch the FUS-10's
-> >> -> on the inside and/or outside, with a piece of .025 and lots of rivets
-> >> .... ->
-> >> -> Not sure about those rivets at the bottom of the windshield -
-> >> -> Wayne has strongly suggested that it's a good idea to add a second
-> >> -> row of staggered rivets down the door post. That might help
-> >> -> with your problem there.
-> >> ->
-> >> -> --
-> >> -> ......bobp
-> >> -> bobp@prosumers.ca
-> >> -> http://www.prosumers.ca/Ramble09
-> >> ->
-> >> -> http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
-> >> -> http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
-> >> -> http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com
-> >> ->
-> >> -> -------------------------------orig.-------------------------
-> >> -> On Sunday 30 November 2008 00:24, frankarndt@dcsol.com wrote:
-> >> -> > Would have been nice if you fixed my title too!
-> >> -> >
-> >> -> > Seasons greetings everyone.
-> >> -> > I have introduced myself years ago on this site (thread titled
-> >> -> > "Smacking it on the runway") and I continue to lurk an learn from
-> >> this -> > site every day. For that I thank you all.
-> >> -> > So let me get to the point. After 250 perfect take-offs and 245
-> >> less -> > than perfect landings (wish I could blame the Rebel, but I
-> >> can't) I am in -> > the need of some repair advice.
-> >> -> > Lower front corner rounds had a kink in them right from the start
-> >> and -> > the kink has developed into a crack. I think these are the
-> >> thinner (.25 -> > thick) and my research on this site tells me that there
-> >> are upgraded ones -> > (.35 or .40 thick) so I think that is fairly
-> >> straight forward. Can I just -> > order these from the factory? Any
-> >> tricks
-> >> to replace that I should know -> > about?
-> >> -> >
-> >> -> > One other sign of fatigue is on the fusalage at the lower most
-> >> part
-> >> of -> > the front windshield. I found a few rivets here that had the
-> >> heads
-> >> sheared -> > off. I'm looking for some/any suggestions here. I will post
-> >> some pics (35k -> > each) to the files sections right after I send this
-> >> post.
-> >> -> >
-> >> -> > Would appreciate you comments.
-> >> -> >
-> >> -> > Frank
-> >> -> > http://home.cogeco.ca/~farndt/index.htm
-> >> -> >
-> >> ->
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> > List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
-> > username "rebel" password "builder"
-> > Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
-> > List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> >
-> >
-> >
->




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Frank

If you have some oval rivet holes don't forget that 5/32 avex rivets are
available and hardly noticeable compared to large 3/16" ones.

I've got a few hundred hours on 0.025 lower corner wraps (homemade) with
no problem although I did cut the firewall back for my ej22. No
additional stringer like material on mine and only a single row of
rivets. Some guys do use an 0.032 part.

I've had some "firm" landings with no damage but I've also been thinking
that I've seen 5 rebels now with fuselage damage from hard landings and
I've heard of more. I now often leave a little power on til touchdown
especially when heavy or when it is hot. Haven't seen your pics but if
there is a problem with anything on the door post, I'd check that the
floatfix bulletin is done as it is not just for floats. Also recommend
some extra rivets into the door post as have others. I did run some
stringer like material back from the upper engine mounts to reduce side
skin flexing as the engine tugs on the mounts.

Ken




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