The Murphy Builders Site

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:26 pm**

Wayne,

Thank you for that NSH opinion, it is what I needed to hear. I have the
laminated raps and I think I'll just leave them if there just as strong. I
believe I should still do the doubler, no? Or should that be "aye" in
Canadian?

I have already completed your reinforcing plate mod on the fus 31 to the fin
spar. Murphy has a firewall mod that is a 2 inch plate front and back of the
firewall and across the two top engine mounts. If I remember correctly in a
conversation with you earlier, you had your own firewall mod that was
reinforcing plates in the corners on all four engine mounts, no? Do you do
both?

I have the old seats with the aluminum riveted to the front of back rest and
without the extra MAM tube mod for support. Is there a problem with these
seats that you know of or are they OK?

These are the mods' I am aware of and plan to do or have done;

1. Fus 89 mod
2. Double rap on fus 30 for tail spring and bolt
3. Float fix (includes door post and firewall)
4. Reinforcing plate on fus 31 to the fin spar

Are there any I have missed that you would do on your own bird (in YH
opinion)?

Blue skies and tailwinds
Bruce Georgen 357 R

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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:26 pm**

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your following message has been delivered to the 167 members of
the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 17:50:52 on 1 Oct 2000.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, I would still do the .032 doubler between the post and the spring
attach bulkhead, as we "Ontarians" have been doing for some time (8 years
+). No, I don't think I have ever verbally said "aye" in my life!!! To do
both firewall reinforcing methods would most likely be overkill, but sure
would make it bulletproof. Mine is much easier to install if the panel is
already completed, engine installed, etc and when done as a retrofit. MAM's
fix can have you removing and relocating considerable items etc if the
aircraft is already complete and flying. Both are easy to install at the
construction stage so the choice is (as always) yours!

As for the seats MAM was originally giving builders the necessary parts to
modify the seats from the simple welded gussets, to the braced square tube
for a pivot location. Suprised that your 357R has the old seats, as two of
mine (385R and 386R purchased April '95) had the newer braced seats. The old
seats are in many Rebels that are flying and are alright for most people. I
think the failures occured to people that took passsengers up that were a
LITTLE on the heavy side and tried to use the seat as a rocking chair! The
big concern is the simple gussets versus a proper brace. The aluminum skin
that is riveted on shouldn't make a big difference no matter which side it
is on, even though YES the front side does weaken it as compared to the back
side. Tension vs. Compression. Mine haven't broken yet and I even flew mine
for 3 years with no upholstery on them (other than patio furniture
cushions), with the aluminum on the front of the frames!

Those 4 mods you mention are a "for sure"! There are LOTS other not so
critical ones here and there that if you spend some time in the archives
scrolling around you will pick up, as I am spending too much time on this
computer again! Been married 18 years now and would like to make it at least
18 more!!! Other than that, get it done and flying so you can enjoy it!

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: <Legeorgen@cs.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2000 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: Tailspring mod

Wayne,

Thank you for that NSH opinion, it is what I needed to hear. I have the
laminated raps and I think I'll just leave them if there just as strong. I
believe I should still do the doubler, no? Or should that be "aye" in
Canadian?

I have already completed your reinforcing plate mod on the fus 31 to the

fin

spar. Murphy has a firewall mod that is a 2 inch plate front and back of

the

firewall and across the two top engine mounts. If I remember correctly in

a

conversation with you earlier, you had your own firewall mod that was
reinforcing plates in the corners on all four engine mounts, no? Do you do
both?

I have the old seats with the aluminum riveted to the front of back rest

and

without the extra MAM tube mod for support. Is there a problem with these
seats that you know of or are they OK?

These are the mods' I am aware of and plan to do or have done;

1. Fus 89 mod
2. Double rap on fus 30 for tail spring and bolt
3. Float fix (includes door post and firewall)
4. Reinforcing plate on fus 31 to the fin spar

Are there any I have missed that you would do on your own bird (in YH
opinion)?

Blue skies and tailwinds
Bruce Georgen 357 R

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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:26 pm**

Thanks Wayne for all the help. I'll try and leave you alone for a while so
you can go fly and enjoy your family. I REALLY appreciate what you do for
everybody.

Bruce G 357 R
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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:26 pm**

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2000 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: Tailspring mod

Yes, I would still do the .032 doubler between the post and the spring
attach bulkhead, as we "Ontarians" have been doing for some time (8 years
+).

I got my tailwrap doubler fitted over the weekend. For the trim line I
fastened a felt tip marker to a piece of string. I held the marker at the
top of the tailwrap at the fin spar and held the string at the bottom corner
of the tailwrap. I drew an 90 degree arc that ended about 8" forward from
the bottom rear corner.
The doubler catches the bottom 2/3rds of the bathtub fitting and extends
about 2" in front of the tailspring bolt. Does this sound like I did it
right? I don't have any good pictures of a Rebel with this doubler on it.

Joel

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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:26 pm**

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your following message has been delivered to the 167 members of
the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 12:40:27 on 2 Oct 2000.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The doubler sounds great Joel! This will really help strengthen the tail
spring area!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joel Jacobs" <jj@netexp.net>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: Tailspring mod

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2000 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: Tailspring mod

Yes, I would still do the .032 doubler between the post and the spring
attach bulkhead, as we "Ontarians" have been doing for some time (8

years

+).
I got my tailwrap doubler fitted over the weekend. For the trim line I
fastened a felt tip marker to a piece of string. I held the marker at the
top of the tailwrap at the fin spar and held the string at the bottom

corner

of the tailwrap. I drew an 90 degree arc that ended about 8" forward from
the bottom rear corner.
The doubler catches the bottom 2/3rds of the bathtub fitting and extends
about 2" in front of the tailspring bolt. Does this sound like I did it
right? I don't have any good pictures of a Rebel with this doubler on it.

Joel

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between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
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--------*

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between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:26 pm**

I have done the tail post fix, as per MAM's bulletin, but haven't done this doubler fix
yet. As I understand it, this protects against hard landings and rough tail wheel
handling. What if you are on floats? Is this doubler mod still necessary? My apologies if
this has already been answered.

"Wayne G. O'Shea" wrote:

The doubler sounds great Joel! This will really help strengthen the tail
spring area!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joel Jacobs" <jj@netexp.net>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: Tailspring mod

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2000 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: Tailspring mod

Yes, I would still do the .032 doubler between the post and the spring
attach bulkhead, as we "Ontarians" have been doing for some time (8
years
+).
I got my tailwrap doubler fitted over the weekend. For the trim line I
fastened a felt tip marker to a piece of string. I held the marker at the
top of the tailwrap at the fin spar and held the string at the bottom
corner
of the tailwrap. I drew an 90 degree arc that ended about 8" forward from
the bottom rear corner.
The doubler catches the bottom 2/3rds of the bathtub fitting and extends
about 2" in front of the tailspring bolt. Does this sound like I did it
right? I don't have any good pictures of a Rebel with this doubler on it.

Joel

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between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*

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The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*

*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
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Archives located at:
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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:26 pm**

Hi Bruce !

I'll jump in here for a bit, to give Wayne a break ...

Some other mods that we usually do up here are:

- Replace FUS-26 with a copy made of .032 (the panel under the door)

- Use ST-28 (.032) channel for the door frames, instead of
the ST-31 (.020)

- Add a 1.5" or 2" 1/8" thick aluminum angle to the bottom
of the instrument panel, all the way across. This
gives somewhere to mount the throttle, mixture, and
trim switches, leaving room for 2 rows of full-sized
guages, AND it greatly stiffens the panel.

- Rivet a couple of 6" or larger drawer pull handles to the
back of the top extrusion of the cockpit cage. These
greatly facilitate entry !

- Have your seat cushions made up at least 8" thick, with a
layer of Temperfoam on top, for comfort. The extra
height will make entry and exit MUCH less painful,
as you will be high enough to clear the seat belt
bracket ! ;-)

.....bobp

-----------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 10:34 PM 9/30/00 EDT, you wrote:

Wayne,

Thank you for that NSH opinion, it is what I needed to hear. I have the
laminated raps and I think I'll just leave them if there just as strong. I
believe I should still do the doubler, no? Or should that be "aye" in
Canadian?

I have already completed your reinforcing plate mod on the fus 31 to the fin
spar. Murphy has a firewall mod that is a 2 inch plate front and back of the
firewall and across the two top engine mounts. If I remember correctly in a
conversation with you earlier, you had your own firewall mod that was
reinforcing plates in the corners on all four engine mounts, no? Do you do
both?

I have the old seats with the aluminum riveted to the front of back rest and
without the extra MAM tube mod for support. Is there a problem with these
seats that you know of or are they OK?

These are the mods' I am aware of and plan to do or have done;

1. Fus 89 mod
2. Double rap on fus 30 for tail spring and bolt
3. Float fix (includes door post and firewall)
4. Reinforcing plate on fus 31 to the fin spar

Are there any I have missed that you would do on your own bird (in YH
opinion)?

Blue skies and tailwinds
Bruce Georgen 357 R

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------*

The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------*

*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*

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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:26 pm**

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your following message has been delivered to the 166 members of
the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 17:46:57 on 2 Oct 2000.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm back for a second! Even better IMHO, on the Fus-26 lower door sill
panel, is to use 2 of the original .020's per side and sandwich them
together with a few rows of rivets between bulkheads (trim the top one back
about 1/8" all around for a smoother transition to the door sill. Laminates
are stronger than a single sheet. I also added another square bulkhead in
this area when I rebuilt Howard's fuselage cabin section. It was installed
between the rear gear attach bulkhead and the next one forward. This really
stiffened up the floor for the rear drag brace loads etc. Possibly not an
issue if you go with the Cessna style leaf gear. The big use for the handles
Bob has mentioned is so you have something to grab onto when you are trying
to lock in your seat. They are also great when your seat isn't locked, as it
gives you something to grab onto other than the stick when you are
scrambling to get back into the right place before you crash!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: Tailspring mod

Hi Bruce !

I'll jump in here for a bit, to give Wayne a break ...

Some other mods that we usually do up here are:

- Replace FUS-26 with a copy made of .032 (the panel under the

door)

- Use ST-28 (.032) channel for the door frames, instead of
the ST-31 (.020)

- Add a 1.5" or 2" 1/8" thick aluminum angle to the bottom
of the instrument panel, all the way across. This
gives somewhere to mount the throttle, mixture, and
trim switches, leaving room for 2 rows of full-sized
guages, AND it greatly stiffens the panel.

- Rivet a couple of 6" or larger drawer pull handles to the
back of the top extrusion of the cockpit cage. These
greatly facilitate entry !

- Have your seat cushions made up at least 8" thick, with a
layer of Temperfoam on top, for comfort. The extra
height will make entry and exit MUCH less painful,
as you will be high enough to clear the seat belt
bracket ! ;-)

.....bobp

-----------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 10:34 PM 9/30/00 EDT, you wrote:
Wayne,

Thank you for that NSH opinion, it is what I needed to hear. I have the
laminated raps and I think I'll just leave them if there just as strong.

I

believe I should still do the doubler, no? Or should that be "aye" in
Canadian?

I have already completed your reinforcing plate mod on the fus 31 to the

fin

spar. Murphy has a firewall mod that is a 2 inch plate front and back of

the

firewall and across the two top engine mounts. If I remember correctly in

a

conversation with you earlier, you had your own firewall mod that was
reinforcing plates in the corners on all four engine mounts, no? Do you

do

both?

I have the old seats with the aluminum riveted to the front of back rest

and

without the extra MAM tube mod for support. Is there a problem with these
seats that you know of or are they OK?

These are the mods' I am aware of and plan to do or have done;

1. Fus 89 mod
2. Double rap on fus 30 for tail spring and bolt
3. Float fix (includes door post and firewall)
4. Reinforcing plate on fus 31 to the fin spar

Are there any I have missed that you would do on your own bird (in YH
opinion)?

Blue skies and tailwinds
Bruce Georgen 357 R

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------*

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*

The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*

*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*

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-----------------------------------------------------------------

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:26 pm**

Good point on the laminating - also uses up the 2 original panels !
Remember to paint on lots of epoxy chromate between the 2 sheets, and
put them together while it's still wet, for good bonding.

Some folks also add extra bulkheads in the baggage area floor
sections.....

......bobp

-----------------------------orig.----------------------------------------
At 05:44 PM 10/2/00 -0400, you wrote:

I'm back for a second! Even better IMHO, on the Fus-26 lower door sill
panel, is to use 2 of the original .020's per side and sandwich them
together with a few rows of rivets between bulkheads (trim the top one back
about 1/8" all around for a smoother transition to the door sill. Laminates
are stronger than a single sheet. I also added another square bulkhead in
this area when I rebuilt Howard's fuselage cabin section. It was installed
between the rear gear attach bulkhead and the next one forward. This really
stiffened up the floor for the rear drag brace loads etc. Possibly not an
issue if you go with the Cessna style leaf gear. The big use for the handles
Bob has mentioned is so you have something to grab onto when you are trying
to lock in your seat. They are also great when your seat isn't locked, as it
gives you something to grab onto other than the stick when you are
scrambling to get back into the right place before you crash!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: Tailspring mod

Hi Bruce !

I'll jump in here for a bit, to give Wayne a break ...

Some other mods that we usually do up here are:

- Replace FUS-26 with a copy made of .032 (the panel under the
door)
- Use ST-28 (.032) channel for the door frames, instead of
the ST-31 (.020)

- Add a 1.5" or 2" 1/8" thick aluminum angle to the bottom
of the instrument panel, all the way across. This
gives somewhere to mount the throttle, mixture, and
trim switches, leaving room for 2 rows of full-sized
guages, AND it greatly stiffens the panel.

- Rivet a couple of 6" or larger drawer pull handles to the
back of the top extrusion of the cockpit cage. These
greatly facilitate entry !

- Have your seat cushions made up at least 8" thick, with a
layer of Temperfoam on top, for comfort. The extra
height will make entry and exit MUCH less painful,
as you will be high enough to clear the seat belt
bracket ! ;-)

.....bobp

-----------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 10:34 PM 9/30/00 EDT, you wrote:
Wayne,

Thank you for that NSH opinion, it is what I needed to hear. I have the
laminated raps and I think I'll just leave them if there just as strong.
I
believe I should still do the doubler, no? Or should that be "aye" in
Canadian?

I have already completed your reinforcing plate mod on the fus 31 to the
fin
spar. Murphy has a firewall mod that is a 2 inch plate front and back of
the
firewall and across the two top engine mounts. If I remember correctly in
a
conversation with you earlier, you had your own firewall mod that was
reinforcing plates in the corners on all four engine mounts, no? Do you
do
both?

I have the old seats with the aluminum riveted to the front of back rest
and
without the extra MAM tube mod for support. Is there a problem with these
seats that you know of or are they OK?

These are the mods' I am aware of and plan to do or have done;

1. Fus 89 mod
2. Double rap on fus 30 for tail spring and bolt
3. Float fix (includes door post and firewall)
4. Reinforcing plate on fus 31 to the fin spar

Are there any I have missed that you would do on your own bird (in YH
opinion)?

Blue skies and tailwinds
Bruce Georgen 357 R

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------*

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------*

The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------*

*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*

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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:26 pm**

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your following message has been delivered to the 166 members of
the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 22:09:40 on 2 Oct 2000.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Walter,

You should be all right on floats, as the doublers main function is to keep
the fus-30 from buckling due to tail spring loads up against the post (and
down at the attach bolt). It also helps stiffen the torsional "box" at the
tail post, but the Fus-31 S.B. I initiated should take care of that problem
good enough (when on floats).

Blue skies,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <Walter.Klatt@home.com>
To: " (Murphy Rebel Builders List)" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 9:32 PM
Subject: Re: Tailspring mod

I have done the tail post fix, as per MAM's bulletin, but haven't done

this doubler fix

yet. As I understand it, this protects against hard landings and rough

tail wheel

handling. What if you are on floats? Is this doubler mod still necessary?

My apologies if

this has already been answered.

"Wayne G. O'Shea" wrote:

The doubler sounds great Joel! This will really help strengthen the tail
spring area!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joel Jacobs" <jj@netexp.net>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: Tailspring mod

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2000 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: Tailspring mod

spring

years
I got my tailwrap doubler fitted over the weekend. For the trim line

I

fastened a felt tip marker to a piece of string. I held the marker at

the

top of the tailwrap at the fin spar and held the string at the bottom
corner
of the tailwrap. I drew an 90 degree arc that ended about 8" forward

from

the bottom rear corner.
The doubler catches the bottom 2/3rds of the bathtub fitting and

extends

about 2" in front of the tailspring bolt. Does this sound like I did

it

right? I don't have any good pictures of a Rebel with this doubler on

it.

Joel

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------*

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*

The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:26 pm**

Wayne,

Why would laminated sheets be stronger than one solid one? Would you cement
them together or just rivet them?

Bruce G 357 R
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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:26 pm**

Thanks for your continued education..... this is the very type of info that
we "wanna-be-builders" are looking for ! Thanks for acting as instructor
!

Louis & Kathy Young
www.justplanevideos.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Wayne G. O'Shea <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: Tailspring mod

For the same reason that plywood is stronger than a similar thickness of

raw

wood. One layer of aluminum is free to bend back and forth, but if you tie
two layers together, the one on the inside of the curve has to make a
tighter radius and will resist the outer ones bending moments! Also in

order

to bend with the laminates, not only is one sheet trying to bend more than
the other, it would also be trying to shear the rivets at the same time

that

hold the two sheets together, creating a stronger panel than a single

sheet

of the combined thickness. ie: two sandwiched .020 sheets are stronger

than

a single .040

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: <Legeorgen@cs.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: Tailspring mod

Wayne,

Why would laminated sheets be stronger than one solid one? Would you
cement
them together or just rivet them?

Bruce G 357 R

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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:26 pm**

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the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 09:56:13 on 3 Oct 2000.
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For the same reason that plywood is stronger than a similar thickness of raw
wood. One layer of aluminum is free to bend back and forth, but if you tie
two layers together, the one on the inside of the curve has to make a
tighter radius and will resist the outer ones bending moments! Also in order
to bend with the laminates, not only is one sheet trying to bend more than
the other, it would also be trying to shear the rivets at the same time that
hold the two sheets together, creating a stronger panel than a single sheet
of the combined thickness. ie: two sandwiched .020 sheets are stronger than
a single .040

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: <Legeorgen@cs.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: Tailspring mod

Wayne,

Why would laminated sheets be stronger than one solid one? Would you

cement

them together or just rivet them?

Bruce G 357 R

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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:26 pm**

Another opinion FWIW...

I can not agree that two 0.020 laminated sheets are stronger than one
0.040 sheet. In some modes such as bending they will generally be weaker
due to stress concentrations at rivets, but admittedly that is not a
mode that is usually significant for us. Aluminum is not generally
stronger in one plane or direction than another, so it is difficult to
design an application that gets an advantage from laminated sheet. If
you have a spacer between the sheets, that is another matter. We are
just rivetting two sheets together here, not creating a bonded assembly,
so a laminated sheet may take more flexing before it cracks but for the
same reason (movement between the sheets), the lamination will flex more
than the solid piece.

In our shear application the lamination may however tend to be more tear
resistant, in that a crack that starts in one sheet may be stopped by
the second sheet if it is strong enough to carry the load. A posible
reason for our laminated wing fittings. This advantage is traded off
against possible corrosion though if the lamination is a large piece and
not sealed to keep moisture out. Corrosion is just as effective at
starting cracks as a scratch. From a practical construction point of
view, a 0.002 scratch in the thicker sheet is less stress concentration
than a 0.002 scratch in a thinner sheet.

If the aluminum was poor quality with weakening inclusions (acting as
invisible internal defects) I would lean toward laminations but I think
it is really a wash in our application. I am not saying that laminating
is a bad idea, I just don't agree that it is stronger than a solid
sheet. For example, I would never want to replace a 0.020 piece with two
0.010 pieces where neither single piece is strong enough to carry the
load by itself.

love a good discussion
Ken

Legeorgen@cs.com wrote:

Wayne,

Why would laminated sheets be stronger than one solid one? Would you cement
them together or just rivet them?

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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:26 pm**

At 01:36 PM 10/3/00 -0400, you wrote:

Another opinion FWIW...

I can not agree that two 0.020 laminated sheets are stronger than one
0.040 sheet. In some modes such as bending they will generally be weaker
due to stress concentrations at rivets, but admittedly that is not a
mode that is usually significant for us. Aluminum is not generally
stronger in one plane or direction than another,

I have to disagree with you on this Ken rolled aluminum definatly has a
grain and is stronger in one direction. I can tear .020 with my hands along
the grain. try it. Drew Dalgleish
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