The Murphy Builders Site

Chris,

Whether you use electric, manual or hydraulic flaps is ultimately a matter
of personal choice. Another issue to think through is that the standard
Moose flap design involves running cable from under the floor to the back,
up then forward to the roof-mounted attach point. That's a lot of cable with
the potential for slop/stretch.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Chris
Hodgson
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 6:45 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Rebel / Moose Hydraulics

Has anyone put in electric or hydraulic flaps in a moose? I am thinking of
putting in hydraulic flaps since I will already have a hydraulic system in
preparation for amphib gear. Which leads to my next question of why do some
moose use a big electric hydraulic pump instead of an engine driven pump?
Thanks in advance for any responses.
Chris




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Richard, Ted,
Thanks for the input. My initial reasoning was to get rid of the big handle.
I think I will avoid all the loops of cable by putting the actuator on the
ceiling in the tail where the cable initially comes out. David Sproule
originally thought of using Cessna electric drive but he has a controller
from an Aztec which will fit nicely under the dash. That with an engine
driven hydraulic pump seems so much simpler I wonder if I'm missing
something.
Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ted
Waltman
Sent: October 2, 2008 8:27 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel / Moose Hydraulics

Chris,

Whether you use electric, manual or hydraulic flaps is ultimately a matter
of personal choice. Another issue to think through is that the standard
Moose flap design involves running cable from under the floor to the back,
up then forward to the roof-mounted attach point. That's a lot of cable with
the potential for slop/stretch.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Chris
Hodgson
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 6:45 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Rebel / Moose Hydraulics

Has anyone put in electric or hydraulic flaps in a moose? I am thinking of
putting in hydraulic flaps since I will already have a hydraulic system in
preparation for amphib gear. Which leads to my next question of why do some
moose use a big electric hydraulic pump instead of an engine driven pump?
Thanks in advance for any responses.
Chris




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Welllll..... one thought that comes to mind immediately is:

What if you want to put the flaps down for a dead-stick landing ???

If that's Pierre's moose, the handle was already moved aft a
long way, for better control movement clearance....
a "really good idea"(tm) for the Moose flap handle !

Personally, I like to 'keep it simple' - mechanical is simple
and light - hydraulics can leak, and perform differently with
temperature, need power, and give no direct feedback - like
trying to lower the flaps at 150 mph .... with hydraulics,
they come down --- and rip off !!

Just MHO !! :-)

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.prosumers.ca/Ramble08

http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 02 October 2008 16:56, Chris Hodgson wrote:

Richard, Ted,
Thanks for the input. My initial reasoning was to get rid of the big
handle. I think I will avoid all the loops of cable by putting the
actuator on the ceiling in the tail where the cable initially comes out.
David Sproule originally thought of using Cessna electric drive but he has
a controller from an Aztec which will fit nicely under the dash. That
with an engine driven hydraulic pump seems so much simpler I wonder if I'm
missing something.
Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ted
Waltman
Sent: October 2, 2008 8:27 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel / Moose Hydraulics

Chris,

Whether you use electric, manual or hydraulic flaps is ultimately a matter
of personal choice. Another issue to think through is that the standard
Moose flap design involves running cable from under the floor to the back,
up then forward to the roof-mounted attach point. That's a lot of cable
with the potential for slop/stretch.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Chris Hodgson
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 6:45 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Rebel / Moose Hydraulics

Has anyone put in electric or hydraulic flaps in a moose? I am thinking
of putting in hydraulic flaps since I will already have a hydraulic system
in preparation for amphib gear. Which leads to my next question of why do
some moose use a big electric hydraulic pump instead of an engine driven
pump? Thanks in advance for any responses.
Chris

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The early C-210 (1960's the planes with lift struts) used an engine
driven hydraulic pump to drive the gear and flaps. This required open
center selector valves to relieve the pump pressure for the gear or
flaps. It was a some what complicated system and when one of the
selector valves did not automatically "pop" back to open center position
the pump would work hard all the time, causing the system relief valve
to pop open and closed, you could see it on the hydraulic pressure gage
about every 3 to 5 seconds. This condition will over heat the hydraulic
fluid (5606 red). This stuff then either turns to a jelly like
substance, or the pump fails. In general this was not a good system

Thank God they changed that in 1970 to an electric motor driving a
hydraulic pump. The hydraulic sequencing valves then provided fluid to
the door system first, then to the gear actuators, then again to the
doors. When the system sees approximately 1500 PSI the pressure switch
opens the motor run solenoid and shuts off the pump motor.

Thank Him again in 1978 the new R172 (RG) Cutlass & R182 (RG) came out
with no main gear doors & only had a mechanical nose door system. In
1979 the 210's followed suit. This became a simple system and very
reliable.

When a friend asks what high performance airplane to buy those models
are what I recommend. Conversely when a "Not so Friend" asks I send him
to an old 210, and quietly laugh and think "Got-you"!

The electric Flap system with the pre-select feature showed up in the
mid 70's, works very well and is very reliable.

As Bob points out the mechanical flaps are simple.

I think I heard of one SR-3500 builder moving the mechanical flap handle
to the roof of the plane. This would give you the relatively clear
floor space that you are looking for. I think the Rebel series does
this.

Dick Wampach SR-108



From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Bob Patterson

Welllll..... one thought that comes to mind immediately is:

What if you want to put the flaps down for a dead-stick landing ???

If that's Pierre's moose, the handle was already moved aft a
long way, for better control movement clearance....
a "really good idea"(tm) for the Moose flap handle !

Personally, I like to 'keep it simple' - mechanical is simple
and light - hydraulics can leak, and perform differently with
temperature, need power, and give no direct feedback - like
trying to lower the flaps at 150 mph .... with hydraulics,
they come down --- and rip off !!

Just MHO !! :-)
--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca

On Thursday 02 October 2008 16:56, Chris Hodgson wrote:
Richard, Ted,
Thanks for the input. My initial reasoning was to get rid of the big
Handle. I think I will avoid all the loops of cable by putting the
Actuator on the ceiling in the tail where the cable initially comes out.

David Sproule originally thought of using Cessna electric drive but he
has
a controller from an Aztec which will fit nicely under the dash. That
with an engine driven hydraulic pump seems so much simpler I wonder if
I'm
missing something.
Chris


On Behalf Of Ted Waltman
Chris,
Whether you use electric, manual or hydraulic flaps is ultimately a
matter of personal choice. Another issue to think through is that the
standard
Moose flap design involves running cable from under the floor to the
back, up then forward to the roof-mounted attach point. That's a lot of
cable with the potential for slop/stretch.

Ted

On Behalf Of Chris Hodgson
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 6:45 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Rebel / Moose Hydraulics

Has anyone put in electric or hydraulic flaps in a moose? I am
thinking
of putting in hydraulic flaps since I will already have a hydraulic
system
in preparation for amphib gear. Which leads to my next question of why
do
some moose use a big electric hydraulic pump instead of an engine
driven
pump? Thanks in advance for any responses.
Chris





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