The Murphy Builders Site

The 1800s might have heavier skins? Also, net weight is a variable number
depending on which wheel gear you are replacing. Typical empty weights of
Rebel 1800 amphibs really vary too, anywhere from 1100 to 1250, depending on
engines, props, finishing, etc. One of the local Rebels here weighs more
than 100 pounds more than mine, just because of how it was built with mods
and options.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of C&P
Kucera
Sent: September 25, 2008 5:13 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Question re 1800 float weight inrease

Murphy website shows the net increase in weight of the Rebel for the 1800
straight floats as 200 lb and for the 1500 straight floats 146 lb. Each 1800

float weighs only 6 lb more than a 1500 float, hence the net increase in
weight for the 1800 should be only 146 + 12 = 158 lb, where does the 200
come from?,...a typo?...for the last 10+years?
The only thing I can think of is that the struts for the 1800 are heavier
gauge, or the 1500s use only one rudder, or ???

Paul Kucera
Reb 453 Ontario





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Walter,

Thanks Paul !

You've found an error that need correcting - we'll
have to weigh a current set of floats. Walter is correct -
over the years, we have increased the skin thickness
on the larger floats, and these float weights are likely
the old, original weights. The weight increase has probably
been updated along the line, but not the empty weight.

Anyone out there weighed their floats separately ???
If I can get several examples, we'll update the numbers.
As Walter points out, aircraft empty weights vary quite widely,
so the total aircraft empty weight isn't much of a guide.

Both sizes of floats have 2 water rudders, which
makes them a delight to taxi ! If you are still planning
a light Rebel, with a Rotax 912, the 1500's will work well.

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.prosumers.ca/Ramble08

http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 25 September 2008 12:12, C&P Kucera wrote:

Murphy website shows the net increase in weight of the Rebel for the 1800
straight floats as 200 lb and for the 1500 straight floats 146 lb. Each
1800 float weighs only 6 lb more than a 1500 float, hence the net increase
in weight for the 1800 should be only 146 + 12 = 158 lb, where does the
200 come from?,...a typo?...for the last 10+years?
The only thing I can think of is that the struts for the 1800 are heavier
gauge, or the 1500s use only one rudder, or ???

Paul Kucera
Reb 453 Ontario

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I have a set of 1800 Amphis still in the crate. Do you know when/what year they increased the thickness?
Keith

--- On Thu, 9/25/08, Bob Patterson <bobp@prosumers.ca> wrote:

From: Bob Patterson <bobp@prosumers.ca>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Question re 1800 float weight increase
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Date: Thursday, September 25, 2008, 11:28 AM

Thanks Paul !

You've found an error that need correcting - we'll
have to weigh a current set of floats. Walter is correct -
over the years, we have increased the skin thickness
on the larger floats, and these float weights are likely
the old, original weights. The weight increase has probably
been updated along the line, but not the empty weight.

Anyone out there weighed their floats separately ???
If I can get several examples, we'll update the numbers.
As Walter points out, aircraft empty weights vary quite widely,
so the total aircraft empty weight isn't much of a guide.

Both sizes of floats have 2 water rudders, which
makes them a delight to taxi ! If you are still planning
a light Rebel, with a Rotax 912, the 1500's will work well.

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.prosumers.ca/Ramble08

http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 25 September 2008 12:12, C&P Kucera wrote:

Murphy website shows the net increase in weight of the Rebel for the 1800
straight floats as 200 lb and for the 1500 straight floats 146 lb. Each
1800 float weighs only 6 lb more than a 1500 float, hence the net increase
in weight for the 1800 should be only 146 + 12 = 158 lb, where does the
200 come from?,...a typo?...for the last 10+years?
The only thing I can think of is that the struts for the 1800 are heavier
gauge, or the 1500s use only one rudder, or ???

Paul Kucera
Reb 453 Ontario

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Keith, first, no problem with contacting me directly, and I can give you a lot more detail about my 360 Rebel. Use the email address that I use here to subscribe to this list.

Would like to say a few things too, though, for the benefit of the rest of the list. The 360 is not endorsed by Murphy for use on the Rebel. There are concerns about the tail integrity and gust loads at higher speeds. That is why Murphy came out with the Elite, which has a bigger and stronger tail, not too mention many structural improvements in other areas. While the Elite is heavier, I have actually been quite impressed with the performance of Dennis' 360 Elite on the 1800 amphibs. It is not that far off from my Rebel. I think his bigger wing area with Murphy's new tips and the VGs help him, too. Suffice it to say, I have more respect for the Elite model than I used to.

On the Rebel, I would only use the 360 on the floats. Otherwise, on wheels, you would be risking going too fast, too steep a climb angle for gravity feed, and just way too much power that you would be just wasting. I can't see how you could even break in the engine on wheels, as you would be way past VNE with in any kind of load on the engine.

And performance with my old 150 hp 320 was already very good. The only reason I wanted the 360 is to go into the higher alpine lakes here locally, where take-off times are dramatically affected at the higher altitudes. For example, if your Rebel is loaded, so that it takes more than 30 seconds to get off the water at sea level, you won't get off from a 3000 foot lake, unless it is very cool and you have a good headwind.

Regarding fuel usage, my 360 is actually more efficient than my old 320. I save about .5 gph when cruising at the same speed. I believe the main reason for that is my electronic ignition. Or I can go 5 mph faster with the same usage, which is what I generally do. Most of my cruising is at 7.5 gph.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Leitch <im_planecrazy@yahoo.com>
Date: Thursday, September 25, 2008 8:22 am
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Question re 1800 float weight increase
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

Walter,

Would it be possible to contact you via personal email in
reference to your O-360? I have know idea what engine I will be
using yet but yours sure sounds like a ball!! Fuel consumption
may be an issue though.
Got several friends with SuperCubs I would like to impress. :)

Keith R661

--- On Thu, 9/25/08, Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca> wrote:

From: Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Question re 1800 float weight increase
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Date: Thursday, September 25, 2008, 9:05 AM

The 1800s might have heavier skins? Also, net weight is a
variable number
depending on which wheel gear you are replacing. Typical empty
weights of
Rebel 1800 amphibs really vary too, anywhere from 1100 to 1250,
depending on
engines, props, finishing, etc. One of the local Rebels here
weighs more
than 100 pounds more than mine, just because of how it was built
with mods
and options.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On
Behalf Of C&P
Kucera
Sent: September 25, 2008 5:13 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Question re 1800 float weight inrease

Murphy website shows the net increase in weight of the Rebel for
the 1800
straight floats as 200 lb and for the 1500 straight floats 146
lb. Each 1800

float weighs only 6 lb more than a 1500 float, hence the net
increase in
weight for the 1800 should be only 146 + 12 = 158 lb, where does
the 200
come from?,...a typo?...for the last 10+years?
The only thing I can think of is that the struts for the 1800
are heavier
gauge, or the 1500s use only one rudder, or ???

Paul Kucera
Reb 453 Ontario





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Hi Keith !

I don't, but it was fairly early - yours are likely the latest.
Are they factory built ??

If you do uncrate them, I'd appreciate it if you could
weigh them & let me know ... I hope to get a few others,
so we can get an average.

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.prosumers.ca/Ramble08

http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 25 September 2008 17:09, Keith Leitch wrote:

I have a set of 1800 Amphis still in the crate. Do you know when/what year
they increased the thickness? Keith

--- On Thu, 9/25/08, Bob Patterson <bobp@prosumers.ca> wrote:

From: Bob Patterson <bobp@prosumers.ca>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Question re 1800 float weight increase
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Date: Thursday, September 25, 2008, 11:28 AM

Thanks Paul !

You've found an error that need correcting - we'll
have to weigh a current set of floats. Walter is correct -
over the years, we have increased the skin thickness
on the larger floats, and these float weights are likely
the old, original weights. The weight increase has probably
been updated along the line, but not the empty weight.

Anyone out there weighed their floats separately ???
If I can get several examples, we'll update the numbers.
As Walter points out, aircraft empty weights vary quite widely,
so the total aircraft empty weight isn't much of a guide.

Both sizes of floats have 2 water rudders, which
makes them a delight to taxi ! If you are still planning
a light Rebel, with a Rotax 912, the 1500's will work well.

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.prosumers.ca/Ramble08

http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------

On Thursday 25 September 2008 12:12, C&P Kucera wrote:

Murphy website shows the net increase in weight of the Rebel for the
1800 straight floats as 200 lb and for the 1500 straight floats 146 lb.
Each 1800 float weighs only 6 lb more than a 1500 float, hence the net
increase in weight for the 1800 should be only 146 + 12 = 158 lb, where
does the 200 come from?,...a typo?...for the last 10+years?
The only thing I can think of is that the struts for the 1800 are
heavier gauge, or the 1500s use only one rudder, or ???

Paul Kucera
Reb 453 Ontario

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Bob,
LOL!! Mine aren't even built yet. I have had them 9 years, I think. They were shipped to me either in 1999 or 2000. I tried to start on them when we were stationed in Germany but our orders were cut short and we were transfered back stateside then to Hawaii so I left them in the crate. Worked on a wing while I was back and forth from Hawaii. Almost been thinking of selling them but I know it would cost more later to replace them and since the money is already spent it isn't a big deal.
Keith

--- On Thu, 9/25/08, Bob Patterson <bobp@prosumers.ca> wrote:

From: Bob Patterson <bobp@prosumers.ca>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Question re 1800 float weight increase
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Date: Thursday, September 25, 2008, 12:31 PM

Hi Keith !

I don't, but it was fairly early - yours are likely the latest.
Are they factory built ??

If you do uncrate them, I'd appreciate it if you could
weigh them & let me know ... I hope to get a few others,
so we can get an average.

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.prosumers.ca/Ramble08

http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 25 September 2008 17:09, Keith Leitch wrote:

I have a set of 1800 Amphis still in the crate. Do you know when/what year
they increased the thickness? Keith

--- On Thu, 9/25/08, Bob Patterson <bobp@prosumers.ca> wrote:

From: Bob Patterson <bobp@prosumers.ca>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Question re 1800 float weight increase
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Date: Thursday, September 25, 2008, 11:28 AM

Thanks Paul !

You've found an error that need correcting - we'll
have to weigh a current set of floats. Walter is correct -
over the years, we have increased the skin thickness
on the larger floats, and these float weights are likely
the old, original weights. The weight increase has probably
been updated along the line, but not the empty weight.

Anyone out there weighed their floats separately ???
If I can get several examples, we'll update the numbers.
As Walter points out, aircraft empty weights vary quite widely,
so the total aircraft empty weight isn't much of a guide.

Both sizes of floats have 2 water rudders, which
makes them a delight to taxi ! If you are still planning
a light Rebel, with a Rotax 912, the 1500's will work well.

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.prosumers.ca/Ramble08

http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------

On Thursday 25 September 2008 12:12, C&P Kucera wrote:

Murphy website shows the net increase in weight of the Rebel for the
1800 straight floats as 200 lb and for the 1500 straight floats 146

lb.

Each 1800 float weighs only 6 lb more than a 1500 float, hence the

net

increase in weight for the 1800 should be only 146 + 12 = 158 lb,

where

does the 200 come from?,...a typo?...for the last 10+years?
The only thing I can think of is that the struts for the 1800 are
heavier gauge, or the 1500s use only one rudder, or ???

Paul Kucera
Reb 453 Ontario

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Thanks Walter. You probably answered most of my questions already. Most of my flying is here in Northern Minnesota on small strips and since I am in the land of 10,000 lakes there are LOTS of small lakes. I currently fly an 7AC-CONV on floats with an O-235 and it does well solo but with a passenger or a load there is the occasional pucker factor. :)

FOKM's floats which are amphibs (1500's originally stretched to 1800's
with addition of the storage compartment) have an exchange weight with
tail dragger die spring gear of 258# measured recently. Floats are
generally as original but have been repaired due to a hard landing on
water a while back so they might be a few pounds heavy - unknown.

Garry

Bob Patterson wrote:

Thanks Paul !

You've found an error that need correcting - we'll
have to weigh a current set of floats. Walter is correct -
over the years, we have increased the skin thickness
on the larger floats, and these float weights are likely
the old, original weights. The weight increase has probably
been updated along the line, but not the empty weight.

Anyone out there weighed their floats separately ???
If I can get several examples, we'll update the numbers.
As Walter points out, aircraft empty weights vary quite widely,
so the total aircraft empty weight isn't much of a guide.

Both sizes of floats have 2 water rudders, which
makes them a delight to taxi ! If you are still planning
a light Rebel, with a Rotax 912, the 1500's will work well.

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Thanks Bob, yes Im still planning for the 912S

paul


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bobp@prosumers.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Question re 1800 float weight increase

Thanks Paul !

You've found an error that need correcting - we'll
have to weigh a current set of floats. Walter is correct -
over the years, we have increased the skin thickness
on the larger floats, and these float weights are likely
the old, original weights. The weight increase has probably
been updated along the line, but not the empty weight.

Anyone out there weighed their floats separately ???
If I can get several examples, we'll update the numbers.
As Walter points out, aircraft empty weights vary quite widely,
so the total aircraft empty weight isn't much of a guide.

Both sizes of floats have 2 water rudders, which
makes them a delight to taxi ! If you are still planning
a light Rebel, with a Rotax 912, the 1500's will work well.

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.prosumers.ca/Ramble08

http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 25 September 2008 12:12, C&P Kucera wrote:

Murphy website shows the net increase in weight of the Rebel for the 1800
straight floats as 200 lb and for the 1500 straight floats 146 lb. Each
1800 float weighs only 6 lb more than a 1500 float, hence the net
increase
in weight for the 1800 should be only 146 + 12 = 158 lb, where does the
200 come from?,...a typo?...for the last 10+years?
The only thing I can think of is that the struts for the 1800 are heavier
gauge, or the 1500s use only one rudder, or ???

Paul Kucera
Reb 453 Ontario

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Mine are 0.040 forward bottom skins and top deck.
0.032 rear bottom skins. 0.020 side skins.
1800 amphibs shipped in 1998, ser# 043 I believe.

Only heavier skins that I've heard of were by special order AFAIK.

Ken

Keith Leitch wrote:

I have a set of 1800 Amphis still in the crate. Do you know when/what year they increased the thickness?
Keith

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Original kits were .032 forward bottom skins/.025 rear bottoms/20thou sides.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Question re 1800 float weight increase

Mine are 0.040 forward bottom skins and top deck.
0.032 rear bottom skins. 0.020 side skins.
1800 amphibs shipped in 1998, ser# 043 I believe.

Only heavier skins that I've heard of were by special order AFAIK.

Ken

Keith Leitch wrote:

I have a set of 1800 Amphis still in the crate. Do you know when/what
year they increased the thickness?
Keith

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Ken,
Thanks. I'll have to check mine when ever I get around to moving enough stuff to get into my crate.:) Before I ordered them I visited a local float manufacturer and he told me the Murphy floats were a little "thin" and that he would put thicker skins on the bottoms. Can't remember what he suggested but seems he did recommend .040.
Keith

--- On Sat, 9/27/08, Ken <klehman@albedo.net> wrote:

From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Question re 1800 float weight increase
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Date: Saturday, September 27, 2008, 11:52 AM

Mine are 0.040 forward bottom skins and top deck.
0.032 rear bottom skins. 0.020 side skins.
1800 amphibs shipped in 1998, ser# 043 I believe.

Only heavier skins that I've heard of were by special order AFAIK.

Ken

Keith Leitch wrote:

I have a set of 1800 Amphis still in the crate. Do you know when/what year

they increased the thickness?

Keith

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Remember.. staying light is the secret of flight !

Howards original set of 1800's (with .032/.025 bottoms) went 7 seasons
without as much as a scratch in the bottoms. Of course he wasn't fishing
back lakes either!

I have the .040/.032 bottoms on mine. I've hit some rocks while taxiing thru
lake narrows and still not a dent in them.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Leitch" <im_planecrazy@yahoo.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Question re 1800 float weight increase

Ken,
Thanks. I'll have to check mine when ever I get around to moving enough
stuff to get into my crate.:) Before I ordered them I visited a local
float manufacturer and he told me the Murphy floats were a little "thin"
and that he would put thicker skins on the bottoms. Can't remember what he
suggested but seems he did recommend .040.
Keith

--- On Sat, 9/27/08, Ken <klehman@albedo.net> wrote:

From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Question re 1800 float weight increase
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Date: Saturday, September 27, 2008, 11:52 AM

Mine are 0.040 forward bottom skins and top deck.
0.032 rear bottom skins. 0.020 side skins.
1800 amphibs shipped in 1998, ser# 043 I believe.

Only heavier skins that I've heard of were by special order AFAIK.

Ken

Keith Leitch wrote:

I have a set of 1800 Amphis still in the crate. Do you know when/what
year

they increased the thickness?

Keith

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Hi Paul !

There was a typing error on the web site, on the
weights for the 1500's - it's now fixed, to match the
float brochure.

I'd still like to get some actual weights from folks -
both the floats themselves, and the difference in
empty weight between wheels & floats. I know this
varies considerably, depending on how you built
the floats, and the type of wheel gear you have ...

Please post those weights - whenever you get
to changing over.... Thanks !

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.prosumers.ca/Ramble08

http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Friday 26 September 2008 03:38, C&P Kucera wrote:

Thanks Bob, yes Im still planning for the 912S

paul


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bobp@prosumers.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Question re 1800 float weight increase

Thanks Paul !

You've found an error that need correcting - we'll
have to weigh a current set of floats. Walter is correct -
over the years, we have increased the skin thickness
on the larger floats, and these float weights are likely
the old, original weights. The weight increase has probably
been updated along the line, but not the empty weight.

Anyone out there weighed their floats separately ???
If I can get several examples, we'll update the numbers.
As Walter points out, aircraft empty weights vary quite widely,
so the total aircraft empty weight isn't much of a guide.

Both sizes of floats have 2 water rudders, which
makes them a delight to taxi ! If you are still planning
a light Rebel, with a Rotax 912, the 1500's will work well.

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.prosumers.ca/Ramble08

http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------

On Thursday 25 September 2008 12:12, C&P Kucera wrote:

Murphy website shows the net increase in weight of the Rebel for the
1800 straight floats as 200 lb and for the 1500 straight floats 146 lb.
Each 1800 float weighs only 6 lb more than a 1500 float, hence the net
increase
in weight for the 1800 should be only 146 + 12 = 158 lb, where does the
200 come from?,...a typo?...for the last 10+years?
The only thing I can think of is that the struts for the 1800 are
heavier gauge, or the 1500s use only one rudder, or ???

Paul Kucera
Reb 453 Ontario

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