Hello to the group...I'm trying to decide between Rebel and Elite...(spring
gear, O320 with tailwheel, no floats for now). I have heard/read the
following:
1. Elite is easier and faster to build, higher gross wt. and stonger.
2. Elite has more headroom and cargo space, larger and improved doors.
(Are taller people having trouble with head clearance in the Rebel?)
3. I'm interested in the 8.00x6x6 tires, and I see the Elite is offered
with these plus a SR tailwheel as an option package. Is anyone flying with
these, and do you like them?
4. I like the idea of all aluminum, balanced control surfaces on the Elite,
but it sounds like the flaperons on the Rebel do well for most . Is there
enough of an advantage to consider the Elite on this point?
5. Is it just me, or does the cantilevered tail of the Elite just not look
as good as the Rebel's braced tail? I think it's mainly the vert.
stabilizer that stands out...it is a small point, but looks do count some.
6. Finally, is the Elite really worth the $4700 difference in price, if the
only option I'd add to the Rebel (that is otherwise included in the Elite)
is the spring gear for $505?
Thanks for any input...I know there's a lot of experience out there...Charles
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Elite vs. Rebel
-
Charles Skorupa
Elite vs. Rebel
To add a little more to what Gaeton and Ralph said:
1. The Elite design has improved some areas that have been problems for the
Rebel including:
a. Improved strength in the skins and structure in the corner wrap/floor
area around the doors and forward fuselage. Though originally done to
strengthen the area due to the addition of the nose wheel configuration,
this may help with the probelms in the landing gear attachment that Rebels
have been experiencing in this area. The Elite taildragger does not have
the bracing for the nose wheel attachment and loads, but otherwise same .063
wraps.
b. Improved tail wheel gear design using tubular sections that have a better
load path to the frame and better hardware.
c. Strengthened tail area to accommodate cantelever horizontal stabilizer.
Check archives and you will find much discussion about tail wraps, fuselage
buckling, vertical stabilizer rear spar attachment problems on the Rebel.
(To be fair, Wayne, Bob and others have developed workarounds for nearly
every one of the problems noted plus a bunch more. Most have shown up in
severe service only. There is nothing wrong with the Rebel, but the Elite
has done something different in these areas that may or may not help.)
2. Elite has improved some items not easy to retrofit to the Rebel:
a.. Upper fuselage contour matches flaps/ailerons when in reflex position.
Result: greater headroom, less drag.
b. Increased gross weight to 1800 lb wheels, 1900 lb floats.
c. Cantelever, strut free, horizontal stabilizer for reduced drag
d. Superior support of the flaps and ailerons with 3 hanger brackets per
aileron and flap.
e. Can use 1 more notch of flaps (40 degrees????) than the Rebel because of
better supports and metal flaps.
f. Larger door opening for easier cargo loading and access. Especially
nice loading/unloading when on floats.
3. The Elite comes standard with items that are optional on the Rebel (in
addition to the ones Gaeton and Wayne mentioned):
a. Dual brakes (try to get dual instruction without them!)
b. Improved flap handle and mechanism (though this may now be the same for
Rebel and Elite)
c. Split aileron/flaps
d. Float attach points
e. Spring gear
4. The Elite can be be configured in ways that the Rebel can not (for you
now or to enhance resale for possible later retrofit by future owner):
a. Tricycle gear (can be configured to swap between nose and taildragger, I
hear)
b. 180 hp engine
Of course some of the Elite improvements are not desired by all and don't
come for free. Penalty is in weight and cost. And the Elite improvements
have yet to see the service time of the Rebels and may need Wayne's miracle
cures in the future in other, yet to be discovered, areas. To be sure, the
Rebel is a very fine airplane as-is and either plane is an excellent choice.
One of the best complements of either of these planes is that their fiercest
competition is each other! Either way your win! I chose the Elite, but
would be very happy with the Rebel.
- Chuck skorupa
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Baker" <rbaker@sumter.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 10:07 PM
Subject: Elite vs. Rebel
--------*
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1. The Elite design has improved some areas that have been problems for the
Rebel including:
a. Improved strength in the skins and structure in the corner wrap/floor
area around the doors and forward fuselage. Though originally done to
strengthen the area due to the addition of the nose wheel configuration,
this may help with the probelms in the landing gear attachment that Rebels
have been experiencing in this area. The Elite taildragger does not have
the bracing for the nose wheel attachment and loads, but otherwise same .063
wraps.
b. Improved tail wheel gear design using tubular sections that have a better
load path to the frame and better hardware.
c. Strengthened tail area to accommodate cantelever horizontal stabilizer.
Check archives and you will find much discussion about tail wraps, fuselage
buckling, vertical stabilizer rear spar attachment problems on the Rebel.
(To be fair, Wayne, Bob and others have developed workarounds for nearly
every one of the problems noted plus a bunch more. Most have shown up in
severe service only. There is nothing wrong with the Rebel, but the Elite
has done something different in these areas that may or may not help.)
2. Elite has improved some items not easy to retrofit to the Rebel:
a.. Upper fuselage contour matches flaps/ailerons when in reflex position.
Result: greater headroom, less drag.
b. Increased gross weight to 1800 lb wheels, 1900 lb floats.
c. Cantelever, strut free, horizontal stabilizer for reduced drag
d. Superior support of the flaps and ailerons with 3 hanger brackets per
aileron and flap.
e. Can use 1 more notch of flaps (40 degrees????) than the Rebel because of
better supports and metal flaps.
f. Larger door opening for easier cargo loading and access. Especially
nice loading/unloading when on floats.
3. The Elite comes standard with items that are optional on the Rebel (in
addition to the ones Gaeton and Wayne mentioned):
a. Dual brakes (try to get dual instruction without them!)
b. Improved flap handle and mechanism (though this may now be the same for
Rebel and Elite)
c. Split aileron/flaps
d. Float attach points
e. Spring gear
4. The Elite can be be configured in ways that the Rebel can not (for you
now or to enhance resale for possible later retrofit by future owner):
a. Tricycle gear (can be configured to swap between nose and taildragger, I
hear)
b. 180 hp engine
Of course some of the Elite improvements are not desired by all and don't
come for free. Penalty is in weight and cost. And the Elite improvements
have yet to see the service time of the Rebels and may need Wayne's miracle
cures in the future in other, yet to be discovered, areas. To be sure, the
Rebel is a very fine airplane as-is and either plane is an excellent choice.
One of the best complements of either of these planes is that their fiercest
competition is each other! Either way your win! I chose the Elite, but
would be very happy with the Rebel.
- Chuck skorupa
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Baker" <rbaker@sumter.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 10:07 PM
Subject: Elite vs. Rebel
asWe are building Elite 611E. It was chosen after a test flight at MAM
during a visit to Chiliwack. The Elite was chosen for the following
reasons:
1- 180 HP available. We will build in float attaches and wanted the
power. Also, will be moving to Montana and flying out of high density
altitude back country strips.
2- The Elite supposedly has fewer parts and is easier to build.
3- Wing leading edge is .032 and stronger. (Can be counter sunk if you
are a glutton for punishment)
4- No question of moving the firewall for larger engines.
5- All metal surfaces. (We may have to tie down some and fabric is not
sawdurable)
6- Fuel burn increase over 150/160 HP O-320 was not an issue with us.
After being well into the build I would make the same choice again for the
same reasons. A deciding factor was also when we were at Chiliwack and
newa fuselage under construction. Sue, my cobuilder, said "we can do that"
and the deal was done. Our expected completion price is $60K US with a
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------engine. Please contact me if you have any specific questions.
Ralph Baker / Sue Scouten
--------*
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-
Gaetan Tremblay
Elite vs. Rebel
Hello Charles,
I asked the same question to the list last year. I had no answer at all. I
wasn't happy about this. With my answer, you will have almost one. It look
like most people are not interested in talking to others until they start to
build.
I decided on something. I will try to explain you my choice. I hope this
will help you to take your decision. I apologize for my bad English. I do a
lot better in French but I suppose that won't help you much.
I first saw the Rebel at Oshkosh in 93. At that time there where no Elite.
I tried to find a good reason to choose something else and I couldn't. For
different reasons, financing was not available until last year. In the
meantime, I got to Oshkosh every two years to follow the market. When they
come up with the Elite, there were also the Glastar. It look a lot better
but it was more expensive.
There are about 700 Rebel on the field with around 300 flying. I don't know
how many are Elite. I is probably between 50 an 100. It looked that
everybody are happy with their flying Rebel. There is some little problems
but they are nothing to stop them to love their little plane.
The only Elite flying (to my knowledge) are the two build by Murphy. They
are fully equipped with O360 engines. For sure they are heavier than the
Rebels. This mean they are less responsive. In 98, I got a test ride on the
green Elite with the amphibs. This one was particularly heavy (I don't know
the numbers). We where at the Oskhosh sea base. As a rental pilot, I am used
to C172 and C150. I also have some time on a J3 and an Aeronca Chief on
floats. I didn't try the Rebel but compared to all what I flight before, the
sloppy Elite was just like a race car. It jumped on the step and climbed
like hell.
I finally made a choice that looked like the choice I made with my car. It
is not the fastest on the market, neither handle like a go kart. It is
powerful, comfortable with a handling over average. It have a very big trunk
and all the modern goodies.
The Rebel with all the goodies cost mostly like the Elite. The difference
on the finished airplane will be not much important. I figure that the
finished plane will cost about three time the price of the kit. You will
need almost the same engine, same instruments, same paint.
- I don't care about building time. I know it will be very long but I will
have many years to enjoy after that. Average look like 1500 to 2000 hrs.
- My airplane will live outside so I prefer all metal.
- For the stabilizer, you won't believe how strong are those parts. There
are so many ribs, stringers and rivets etc. Take a look at a Zenair and you
will find that the Murphy airplanes are way too strong. I prefer that way.
Whatever the side you look at any Rebel, it look boxy. If you like something
sexy, you should go to the Lancair.
- For the price, I hope I could buy the engine when I will be ready. Then
I will find a way to pay it.
At the end, the main reason wy I took the Elite is because I like it more.
Then I probably found some rational justifications for that irrational
choice. Whatever airplane you choose, it will be irrational. My accountant
cannot find any rational reason to own a private aircraft. If we do always
rational things, we won't have fun. I like to have fun. Whatever airplane
you choose, you will end up with something that fly pretty well. You will
become use to it and you will like it like every people in this mailing list
like their airplanes. I like airplanes and I love to fly.
Ok, I write too much. I should go back to deburring. If you are not sure,
take a trip to the factory and get a test flight. Every people that get
there end up happy.
Have fun and enjoy life. Keep me posted with your project.
Bye,
Gaetan
-----Message d'origine-----
De : C/M Beck [mailto:cmbeck@mtayr.heartland.net]
Envoye : 23 septembre, 2000 05:46
A : murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Objet : Elite vs. Rebel
Hello to the group...I'm trying to decide between Rebel and Elite...
...
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between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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-----------------------------------------------------------------
I asked the same question to the list last year. I had no answer at all. I
wasn't happy about this. With my answer, you will have almost one. It look
like most people are not interested in talking to others until they start to
build.
I decided on something. I will try to explain you my choice. I hope this
will help you to take your decision. I apologize for my bad English. I do a
lot better in French but I suppose that won't help you much.
I first saw the Rebel at Oshkosh in 93. At that time there where no Elite.
I tried to find a good reason to choose something else and I couldn't. For
different reasons, financing was not available until last year. In the
meantime, I got to Oshkosh every two years to follow the market. When they
come up with the Elite, there were also the Glastar. It look a lot better
but it was more expensive.
There are about 700 Rebel on the field with around 300 flying. I don't know
how many are Elite. I is probably between 50 an 100. It looked that
everybody are happy with their flying Rebel. There is some little problems
but they are nothing to stop them to love their little plane.
The only Elite flying (to my knowledge) are the two build by Murphy. They
are fully equipped with O360 engines. For sure they are heavier than the
Rebels. This mean they are less responsive. In 98, I got a test ride on the
green Elite with the amphibs. This one was particularly heavy (I don't know
the numbers). We where at the Oskhosh sea base. As a rental pilot, I am used
to C172 and C150. I also have some time on a J3 and an Aeronca Chief on
floats. I didn't try the Rebel but compared to all what I flight before, the
sloppy Elite was just like a race car. It jumped on the step and climbed
like hell.
I finally made a choice that looked like the choice I made with my car. It
is not the fastest on the market, neither handle like a go kart. It is
powerful, comfortable with a handling over average. It have a very big trunk
and all the modern goodies.
The Rebel with all the goodies cost mostly like the Elite. The difference
on the finished airplane will be not much important. I figure that the
finished plane will cost about three time the price of the kit. You will
need almost the same engine, same instruments, same paint.
- I don't care about building time. I know it will be very long but I will
have many years to enjoy after that. Average look like 1500 to 2000 hrs.
- My airplane will live outside so I prefer all metal.
- For the stabilizer, you won't believe how strong are those parts. There
are so many ribs, stringers and rivets etc. Take a look at a Zenair and you
will find that the Murphy airplanes are way too strong. I prefer that way.
Whatever the side you look at any Rebel, it look boxy. If you like something
sexy, you should go to the Lancair.
- For the price, I hope I could buy the engine when I will be ready. Then
I will find a way to pay it.
At the end, the main reason wy I took the Elite is because I like it more.
Then I probably found some rational justifications for that irrational
choice. Whatever airplane you choose, it will be irrational. My accountant
cannot find any rational reason to own a private aircraft. If we do always
rational things, we won't have fun. I like to have fun. Whatever airplane
you choose, you will end up with something that fly pretty well. You will
become use to it and you will like it like every people in this mailing list
like their airplanes. I like airplanes and I love to fly.
Ok, I write too much. I should go back to deburring. If you are not sure,
take a trip to the factory and get a test flight. Every people that get
there end up happy.
Have fun and enjoy life. Keep me posted with your project.
Bye,
Gaetan
-----Message d'origine-----
De : C/M Beck [mailto:cmbeck@mtayr.heartland.net]
Envoye : 23 septembre, 2000 05:46
A : murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Objet : Elite vs. Rebel
Hello to the group...I'm trying to decide between Rebel and Elite...
...
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
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between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
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-----------------------------------------------------------------
-
Ralph Baker
Elite vs. Rebel
We are building Elite 611E. It was chosen after a test flight at MAM
during a visit to Chiliwack. The Elite was chosen for the following
reasons:
1- 180 HP available. We will build in float attaches and wanted the
power. Also, will be moving to Montana and flying out of high density
altitude back country strips.
2- The Elite supposedly has fewer parts and is easier to build.
3- Wing leading edge is .032 and stronger. (Can be counter sunk if you
are a glutton for punishment)
4- No question of moving the firewall for larger engines.
5- All metal surfaces. (We may have to tie down some and fabric is not as
durable)
6- Fuel burn increase over 150/160 HP O-320 was not an issue with us.
After being well into the build I would make the same choice again for the
same reasons. A deciding factor was also when we were at Chiliwack and saw
a fuselage under construction. Sue, my cobuilder, said "we can do that"
and the deal was done. Our expected completion price is $60K US with a new
engine. Please contact me if you have any specific questions.
Ralph Baker / Sue Scouten
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during a visit to Chiliwack. The Elite was chosen for the following
reasons:
1- 180 HP available. We will build in float attaches and wanted the
power. Also, will be moving to Montana and flying out of high density
altitude back country strips.
2- The Elite supposedly has fewer parts and is easier to build.
3- Wing leading edge is .032 and stronger. (Can be counter sunk if you
are a glutton for punishment)
4- No question of moving the firewall for larger engines.
5- All metal surfaces. (We may have to tie down some and fabric is not as
durable)
6- Fuel burn increase over 150/160 HP O-320 was not an issue with us.
After being well into the build I would make the same choice again for the
same reasons. A deciding factor was also when we were at Chiliwack and saw
a fuselage under construction. Sue, my cobuilder, said "we can do that"
and the deal was done. Our expected completion price is $60K US with a new
engine. Please contact me if you have any specific questions.
Ralph Baker / Sue Scouten
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
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