[rebel-builders] Electric Flaps

Richard Wampach · Post by **Richard Wampach** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:32 pm

I believe Charlie Star has done electric flaps on his Moose. Try the web
photos under SR/moose.

I will soon be installing a Cessna type with the flap follow up handle
used in all later singles in my SR

Dick

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Craig Walls
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 4:49 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Electric Flaps

Anyone aware of the common (if there is one) servo/motor people use when
they automate their flaps? Also, any stellar ideas for conduit inside
the
wing? What about route? Pros/cons for routing along the strut vs
straight
into the fuselage?

As always, thanks in advance for the great help. Craig

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Charlie Starr · Post by **Charlie Starr** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:32 pm

On my Moose (actually a SR), I used a Vann's flap motor. It looks too small
for the big flaps, but I was unable to stall it with any weight I could put
on it. It needs no limit switches, since it simply "free wheels" when it
reaches either end of travel. I have only a momentary up and down flap
switch (no pre-select) and an LED position indicator (from Ray Allen). Has
worked flawlessly and easily, thus far. Craig, I will try e-mailing a few
pictures of the motor assembly tomorrow.

Charlie Starr
N96CS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Walls" <snowyrvr@mtaonline.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 6:48 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Electric Flaps

Anyone aware of the common (if there is one) servo/motor people use when
they automate their flaps? Also, any stellar ideas for conduit inside the
wing? What about route? Pros/cons for routing along the strut vs
straight
into the fuselage?

As always, thanks in advance for the great help. Craig

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Dale Fultz · Post by **Dale Fultz** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:32 pm

After many major changes I scrapped the idea of electric flaps and went
with the idea of keep it simple and get it done and enjoy flyin it rather
then reinvent the wheel.. If I had done everything I wanted I would not be
done for a year or two from now.. But that was just my own thoughts or
opinion. It's yours do with it what you want, but I see so many projects
that have been left set because the attention span has worn out because of
so much work and not getting done as soon as one thinks it should have when
starting... No one could tell back then either but I did get smarter as I
went along..Dale SR-033 N269DF

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Craig Walls · Post by **Craig Walls** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:32 pm

Thanks, Charlie for the tip. It'd definitely be beef enough for a rebel.
I'll look forward to the photos. Craig

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Charlie Starr
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 6:13 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Electric Flaps

On my Moose (actually a SR), I used a Vann's flap motor. It looks too small

for the big flaps, but I was unable to stall it with any weight I could put
on it. It needs no limit switches, since it simply "free wheels" when it
reaches either end of travel. I have only a momentary up and down flap
switch (no pre-select) and an LED position indicator (from Ray Allen). Has

worked flawlessly and easily, thus far. Craig, I will try e-mailing a few
pictures of the motor assembly tomorrow.

Charlie Starr
N96CS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Walls" <snowyrvr@mtaonline.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 6:48 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Electric Flaps

Anyone aware of the common (if there is one) servo/motor people use when
they automate their flaps? Also, any stellar ideas for conduit inside the
wing? What about route? Pros/cons for routing along the strut vs
straight
into the fuselage?

As always, thanks in advance for the great help. Craig

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Walter Klatt · Post by **Walter Klatt** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:32 pm

With being on floats, I don't think I would even want electric flaps. With
the manual lever I have instant control with going from half flap to full on
take-off while on the step, at exactly the right instant for maximum
performance take-offs on water. There are a few improvements I would make to
my Rebel if building again, but that is not one of them.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Dale
Fultz
Sent: April 14, 2008 7:17 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Electric Flaps

After many major changes I scrapped the idea of electric flaps and went
with the idea of keep it simple and get it done and enjoy flyin it rather
then reinvent the wheel.. If I had done everything I wanted I would not be
done for a year or two from now.. But that was just my own thoughts or
opinion. It's yours do with it what you want, but I see so many projects
that have been left set because the attention span has worn out because of
so much work and not getting done as soon as one thinks it should have when
starting... No one could tell back then either but I did get smarter as I
went along..Dale SR-033 N269DF

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Craig Walls · Post by **Craig Walls** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:32 pm

I've already seen the logic in that line of thinking. I really wanted
landing lights in the wing leading edge (I like the look) but have scrapped
them for wingtip lights to save time. I think the seaplane door has gone
the same way but maybe I'll feel differently when I get to that part of the
build. CW

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Dale
Fultz
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 6:17 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Electric Flaps

After many major changes I scrapped the idea of electric flaps and went
with the idea of keep it simple and get it done and enjoy flyin it rather
then reinvent the wheel.. If I had done everything I wanted I would not be
done for a year or two from now.. But that was just my own thoughts or
opinion. It's yours do with it what you want, but I see so many projects
that have been left set because the attention span has worn out because of
so much work and not getting done as soon as one thinks it should have when
starting... No one could tell back then either but I did get smarter as I
went along..Dale SR-033 N269DF

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Ron Shannon · Post by **Ron Shannon** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:32 pm

Craig,

My reasons for choosing electric flaperon control were a) to have a more
rigid linkage than with the Teleflex, and therefore better repeatability of
positioning even under different loads, b) to save weight over the Teleflex
cable, and c) remove the handle mechanism from a crash zone that may need to
be occupied by somebody's head. I think I've achieved those objectives, but
probably saved a little less weight than I expected.

I don't plan float operations at this point, but it will go from full 18
deg. down to neutral in <= 2 seconds. I haven't tested the reverse (down)
timing under load, but the specs indicate that even under load, lowering the
flaps should be virtually as fast.

This particular Danaher E-050 linear actuator has internal limit switches --
so potentially fragile external micro switches are not required to limit
travel -- and internal position sensing to drive an external position
indicator and/or external programmable position stepping control. Of course,
I can also drive it in a continuous motion mode, as opposed to stepped, if
desired. Even under full load the actuator draws less than 4A. If I recall
correctly, it will generate 110 lbs. of thrust.

The actuator drives the mixer arm through a bell crank which 1) allowed me
to keep the actuator out of a common window area, and 2) accomplished
translation of the actuator's fixed 2" travel to the 1 5/8" vertical travel
needed at the connection point on the mixer arm.

Once I had chosen the actuator, the only critical parts were getting that
"translation" or "gearing down" geometry in the bell crank just right, and
maintaining clearance with the vertical push-pull tubes.

It's not flying yet, but I have every reason to think it will perform as
intended. It did take a lot of time to design and build. There is a picture
of the partially completed design at http://n254mr.com/node/97. I have more
pictures that I haven't gotten around to posting yet, if you're interested.

Ron
254R

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Rebflyer · Post by **Rebflyer** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:32 pm

Hi all,
I also went to electric flaps. The actuator is from Motion systems P/N
85615. It's ball drive actuator and I think this is the same company that makes
it for Vans. I was able to order it in the drive stroke I wanted (1") and
there is no need for limit switches. Once it reaches its limits it just spins.I
did however put in a micro switch that works while raising the flaps to keep
from going past the neutral and into reflex while on climb. I can bypass the
micro switch to go into reflex. Coming down the micro switch has no effect.
Time to fully deploy the flaps is less than 2 seconds, positions are
limitless. I do however use 10deg, and 24 deg down and 5 and 10deg reflex.
For the flap indicator I used the MAM door latch alum. tubing, plastic and
spring with a small pin that protrudes, mounted on the top of the door
opening actuated by a small cable attached to the flap arm.
Nearing 500 hrs on the plane, 350 on floats, waiting on a mixture cable so
I can get back ion the water.
Curt N97MR

**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money &
Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolcmp00300000002850)

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Ken · Post by **Ken** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:32 pm

Ron Shannon wrote:

Craig,

My reasons for choosing electric flaperon control were a) to have a more
rigid linkage than with the Teleflex, and therefore better repeatability of
positioning even under different loads,

To my great surprise, that turned out to be a non issue for me. That
said, I'm rigged for accurate down deflection (18* at 45 kts) and less
reflex than others. Ducky with the leading edge cuff and low cruise
power, seldom benefits from any reflex unless I'm light. I removed my
second notch of reflex.

c) remove the handle mechanism from a crash zone that may need to
be occupied by somebody's head.

That is a worthwhile objective I think. Putting about an 80 degree bend
in the flap handle and a thick wooden handle eased my concern a lot, but
it is still a risk.

Another comment is that I also like the feedback from manual. It takes a
very firm pull to extend full flaperon if someone tries to do it at too
high airspeed.

Most homebuilts with electric flaps actually extend them faster than I'd
like. It is nice to be able to retract them fast at touchdown but
flapless may be a better idea in high crosswinds anyway.

Ken

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Drew Dalgleish · Post by **Drew Dalgleish** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:32 pm

At 08:01 PM 4/14/2008 -0700, you wrote:

With being on floats, I don't think I would even want electric flaps. With
the manual lever I have instant control with going from half flap to full on
take-off while on the step, at exactly the right instant for maximum
performance take-offs on water. There are a few improvements I would make to
my Rebel if building again, but that is not one of them.

Walter

Hey Walter with that new engine you'll be off the water so fast you won't
have time to touch the flap handle. How's the instal going?
Drew

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Walter Klatt · Post by **Walter Klatt** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:32 pm

Well, I am thinking with my new engine I will be able to go back to my
original take-off technique where I started off with full flaps all the way
to lift off. It was the VGs that forced me to start with no flaps, and then
add flaps after it is on the step. So, you're right, shouldn't have to touch
that flap handle until after lift off with the new engine. I want to be the
first Rebel that can take off in 5 seconds or less on the water... Best I
could do before was about 9 seconds with a good head wind. Main objective,
though, will be getting off a 5000 elevation lake on a warm day (8000
density altitude).

I am finally almost ready for first start-up of the engine. Just have a bit
of work left on the spinner (filling the gap behind the blades), and then a
little work on the bottom cowl and I will be ready. I tested all the
electrics with the new EI, etc, and amazingly everything seemed to work.

If all goes well, may hear some sound from it this weekend.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Drew
Dalgleish
Sent: April 15, 2008 3:37 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Electric Flaps

At 08:01 PM 4/14/2008 -0700, you wrote:

With being on floats, I don't think I would even want electric flaps. With
the manual lever I have instant control with going from half flap to full

on

take-off while on the step, at exactly the right instant for maximum
performance take-offs on water. There are a few improvements I would make

to

my Rebel if building again, but that is not one of them.

Walter

Hey Walter with that new engine you'll be off the water so fast you won't
have time to touch the flap handle. How's the instal going?
Drew

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Craig Walls · Post by **Craig Walls** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:37 pm

Hey Charlie Starr,

I found this web page with a service bulletin for Vans flap motors. Don't
know if it applies but here it is. Craig

http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/notices.htm

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Charlie Starr
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 6:13 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Electric Flaps

On my Moose (actually a SR), I used a Vann's flap motor. It looks too small

for the big flaps, but I was unable to stall it with any weight I could put
on it. It needs no limit switches, since it simply "free wheels" when it
reaches either end of travel. I have only a momentary up and down flap
switch (no pre-select) and an LED position indicator (from Ray Allen). Has

worked flawlessly and easily, thus far. Craig, I will try e-mailing a few
pictures of the motor assembly tomorrow.

Charlie Starr
N96CS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Walls" <snowyrvr@mtaonline.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 6:48 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Electric Flaps

Anyone aware of the common (if there is one) servo/motor people use when
they automate their flaps? Also, any stellar ideas for conduit inside the
wing? What about route? Pros/cons for routing along the strut vs
straight
into the fuselage?

As always, thanks in advance for the great help. Craig

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Charlie Starr · Post by **Charlie Starr** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:37 pm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Walls" <snowyrvr@mtaonline.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 1:05 AM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Electric Flaps

Hey Charlie Starr,

I found this web page with a service bulletin for Vans flap motors. Don't
know if it applies but here it is. Craig

http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/notices.htm

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Charlie Starr
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 6:13 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Electric Flaps

On my Moose (actually a SR), I used a Vann's flap motor. It looks too
small

for the big flaps, but I was unable to stall it with any weight I could
put
on it. It needs no limit switches, since it simply "free wheels" when it
reaches either end of travel. I have only a momentary up and down flap
switch (no pre-select) and an LED position indicator (from Ray Allen).
Has

worked flawlessly and easily, thus far. Craig, I will try e-mailing a few
pictures of the motor assembly tomorrow.

Charlie Starr
N96CS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Walls" <snowyrvr@mtaonline.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 6:48 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Electric Flaps

Anyone aware of the common (if there is one) servo/motor people use when
they automate their flaps? Also, any stellar ideas for conduit inside
the
wing? What about route? Pros/cons for routing along the strut vs
straight
into the fuselage?

As always, thanks in advance for the great help. Craig

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