The Murphy Builders Site

Jesse did you cut the firewall back?

When I did Howards's I mounted it at 0.7/0.8 as I knew I carried up elevator
all the time with mine at 1.0 degrees. We are now finding this wasn't quite
enough...so 0.4 to 0.5 MAY be the number we're after.

Bob White's Elite was in the same boat and this spring we shimmed the rear
attach fittings an 1/8" and it made a big difference in how much up elevator
he was carrying in cruise. Of course we can't shim the Rebel's stabs...that
would be nice!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jesse Jenks" <jessejenks@hotmail.com>
To: "Builders list" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:41 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Rebel stab incidence

I am getting ready to mount the horizontal stabs, and wanted to know if
anyone has recent data/observations on a good setting for one who plans to
be on amphibs and wants to minimize trim drag in cruise. I will research
the archives of course, but I think I remember something like .5*.
Thanks.
Jesse

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No, I have the original firewall location. So, I guess I will shoot for .5deg. And just to make sure, that is .5deg up at the leading edge of the stab right?

From: oifa@irishfield.on.ca
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel stab incidence
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 13:45:05 -0500

Jesse did you cut the firewall back?

When I did Howards's I mounted it at 0.7/0.8 as I knew I carried up elevator
all the time with mine at 1.0 degrees. We are now finding this wasn't quite
enough...so 0.4 to 0.5 MAY be the number we're after.

Bob White's Elite was in the same boat and this spring we shimmed the rear
attach fittings an 1/8" and it made a big difference in how much up elevator
he was carrying in cruise. Of course we can't shim the Rebel's stabs...that
would be nice!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jesse Jenks" <jessejenks@hotmail.com>
To: "Builders list" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:41 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Rebel stab incidence

I am getting ready to mount the horizontal stabs, and wanted to know if
anyone has recent data/observations on a good setting for one who plans to
be on amphibs and wants to minimize trim drag in cruise. I will research
the archives of course, but I think I remember something like .5*.
Thanks.
Jesse

_________________________________________________________________
i'm is proud to present Cause Effect, a series about real people making a
difference.
http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/MTV/?so ... use_Effect



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Yep..when the fus is level at bottom of cabin/door sill.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jesse Jenks" <jessejenks@hotmail.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 6:00 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel stab incidence

No, I have the original firewall location. So, I guess I will shoot for
.5deg. And just to make sure, that is .5deg up at the leading edge of the
stab right?

From: oifa@irishfield.on.ca
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel stab incidence
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 13:45:05 -0500

Jesse did you cut the firewall back?

When I did Howards's I mounted it at 0.7/0.8 as I knew I carried up
elevator
all the time with mine at 1.0 degrees. We are now finding this wasn't
quite
enough...so 0.4 to 0.5 MAY be the number we're after.

Bob White's Elite was in the same boat and this spring we shimmed the
rear
attach fittings an 1/8" and it made a big difference in how much up
elevator
he was carrying in cruise. Of course we can't shim the Rebel's
stabs...that
would be nice!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jesse Jenks" <jessejenks@hotmail.com>
To: "Builders list" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:41 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Rebel stab incidence

I am getting ready to mount the horizontal stabs, and wanted to know if
anyone has recent data/observations on a good setting for one who plans
to
be on amphibs and wants to minimize trim drag in cruise. I will
research
the archives of course, but I think I remember something like .5*.
Thanks.
Jesse

_________________________________________________________________
i'm is proud to present Cause Effect, a series about real people making
a
difference.
http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/MTV/?so ... use_Effect



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Yes and personally I'd consider going further to perhaps zero for anyone
with the drooped leading edge STOL cuffs. They effectively reduce the
wing incidence about 1.5 degrees. I run with some up elevator even
fully loaded with 200+ lb baggage. There are also numerous comments
about needing lots of up elevator for landing on wheels so this will
help that as well.
Ken
moved back firewall, subaru (similar weight as 0-320), Mackenzie STOL
cuffs, on wheels

Jesse Jenks wrote:

No, I have the original firewall location. So, I guess I will shoot for .5deg. And just to make sure, that is .5deg up at the leading edge of the stab right?

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Regarding flare control, does anyone have experience with the effect of VG's
on the bottom rear of the stabilizers? (I vaguely recall some prior
discussion about this, but tried to find it recently without success.)

Ron


On 12/21/07, Ken <klehman@albedo.net> wrote:

...There are also numerous comments
about needing lots of up elevator for landing on wheels so this will
help that as well.

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Good info. Thanks Ken.
What if I MIGHT get the STOL cuffs someday, but not right away? Would you still use zero?
Jesse

Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 19:51:26 -0500
From: klehman@albedo.net
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel stab incidence

Yes and personally I'd consider going further to perhaps zero for anyone
with the drooped leading edge STOL cuffs. They effectively reduce the
wing incidence about 1.5 degrees. I run with some up elevator even
fully loaded with 200+ lb baggage. There are also numerous comments
about needing lots of up elevator for landing on wheels so this will
help that as well.
Ken
moved back firewall, subaru (similar weight as 0-320), Mackenzie STOL
cuffs, on wheels

Jesse Jenks wrote:

No, I have the original firewall location. So, I guess I will shoot for .5deg. And just to make sure, that is .5deg up at the leading edge of the stab right?

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I think just putting them on the wings will help with getting the tail down.
I know that on floats my angle of attack is now much steeper before the
stall than without the VGs. I never did put them on my stabs on the Rebel,
as I have never run out of elevator authority on floats.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ronald
Shannon
Sent: December 21, 2007 5:24 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel stab incidence

Regarding flare control, does anyone have experience with the effect of VG's
on the bottom rear of the stabilizers? (I vaguely recall some prior
discussion about this, but tried to find it recently without success.)

Ron


On 12/21/07, Ken <klehman@albedo.net> wrote:

...There are also numerous comments
about needing lots of up elevator for landing on wheels so this will
help that as well.

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Hello all and Merry Christmas.

Let me jump in here with a related question. I have been keeping my ears
(eyes?) open regarding the angle of incidence issues. What caught my
attention was a remark several (Many) months ago by Rick Harper about his
landings not being so good because the tail wheel was hitting the ground
well before the mains while trying to full stall land his bird. I realize
that no one answer will fit all Rebels, but this comment made me wonder if
perhaps there could or should be some adjustment to the angle of incidence
of the main wing. (which I do not even know if this is possible) From
Rick's comment I deduced (always dangerous) that maybe the angle of
incidence should be slightly increased so that at stall the airframe was in
a perfect three point attitude. But... and there is always a but... I have
no idea where his cg is, and I do recall that he is running an O-320, which
I will not be doing.

How about you Rotax guys: Do you find that the three point attitude and the
stall seem to come together just about right?

Tim Hickey
R808


----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 7:55 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel stab incidence

I think just putting them on the wings will help with getting the tail
down.
I know that on floats my angle of attack is now much steeper before the
stall than without the VGs. I never did put them on my stabs on the Rebel,
as I have never run out of elevator authority on floats.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Ronald
Shannon
Sent: December 21, 2007 5:24 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel stab incidence

Regarding flare control, does anyone have experience with the effect of
VG's
on the bottom rear of the stabilizers? (I vaguely recall some prior
discussion about this, but tried to find it recently without success.)

Ron


On 12/21/07, Ken <klehman@albedo.net> wrote:

...There are also numerous comments
about needing lots of up elevator for landing on wheels so this will
help that as well.

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Hmmm
I'd probably go with Wayne's suggestion of 0.5 if you don't have the
cuffs yet.
You might decide to try the VG's first or you might never put on the
cuffs especially if have already painted. We are talking about fine
tuning here either way. I'm at 0.7 or 0.8 and it is certainly not worth
the new fairings and paint to change it.
Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:

Good info. Thanks Ken.
What if I MIGHT get the STOL cuffs someday, but not right away? Would you still use zero?
Jesse

Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 19:51:26 -0500
From: klehman@albedo.net
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel stab incidence

Yes and personally I'd consider going further to perhaps zero for anyone
with the drooped leading edge STOL cuffs. They effectively reduce the
wing incidence about 1.5 degrees. I run with some up elevator even
fully loaded with 200+ lb baggage. There are also numerous comments
about needing lots of up elevator for landing on wheels so this will
help that as well.
Ken
moved back firewall, subaru (similar weight as 0-320), Mackenzie STOL
cuffs, on wheels

Jesse Jenks wrote:

No, I have the original firewall location. So, I guess I will shoot for .5deg. And just to make sure, that is .5deg up at the leading edge of the stab right?

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Tim,
Changing wing incidence would be difficult at best. I think it would more practical to change the stance ie, lower the tailwheel, or raise the maingear stance. Probably putting on big tires would be simplest. I might shorten my tailspring if it seems like I want more tokeoff or landing rotation.
Jesse

From: tjhickey@iowatelecom.net
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel stab incidence
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 21:02:06 -0600

Hello all and Merry Christmas.

Let me jump in here with a related question. I have been keeping my ears
(eyes?) open regarding the angle of incidence issues. What caught my
attention was a remark several (Many) months ago by Rick Harper about his
landings not being so good because the tail wheel was hitting the ground
well before the mains while trying to full stall land his bird. I realize
that no one answer will fit all Rebels, but this comment made me wonder if
perhaps there could or should be some adjustment to the angle of incidence
of the main wing. (which I do not even know if this is possible) From
Rick's comment I deduced (always dangerous) that maybe the angle of
incidence should be slightly increased so that at stall the airframe was in
a perfect three point attitude. But... and there is always a but... I have
no idea where his cg is, and I do recall that he is running an O-320, which
I will not be doing.

How about you Rotax guys: Do you find that the three point attitude and the
stall seem to come together just about right?

Tim Hickey
R808


----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 7:55 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel stab incidence

I think just putting them on the wings will help with getting the tail
down.
I know that on floats my angle of attack is now much steeper before the
stall than without the VGs. I never did put them on my stabs on the Rebel,
as I have never run out of elevator authority on floats.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Ronald
Shannon
Sent: December 21, 2007 5:24 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel stab incidence

Regarding flare control, does anyone have experience with the effect of
VG's
on the bottom rear of the stabilizers? (I vaguely recall some prior
discussion about this, but tried to find it recently without success.)

Ron


On 12/21/07, Ken <klehman@albedo.net> wrote:

...There are also numerous comments
about needing lots of up elevator for landing on wheels so this will
help that as well.

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OK, I'll stick with .5.
Thanks

Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 22:25:32 -0500
From: klehman@albedo.net
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel stab incidence

Hmmm
I'd probably go with Wayne's suggestion of 0.5 if you don't have the
cuffs yet.
You might decide to try the VG's first or you might never put on the
cuffs especially if have already painted. We are talking about fine
tuning here either way. I'm at 0.7 or 0.8 and it is certainly not worth
the new fairings and paint to change it.
Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:

Good info. Thanks Ken.
What if I MIGHT get the STOL cuffs someday, but not right away? Would you still use zero?
Jesse

Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 19:51:26 -0500
From: klehman@albedo.net
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel stab incidence

Yes and personally I'd consider going further to perhaps zero for anyone
with the drooped leading edge STOL cuffs. They effectively reduce the
wing incidence about 1.5 degrees. I run with some up elevator even
fully loaded with 200+ lb baggage. There are also numerous comments
about needing lots of up elevator for landing on wheels so this will
help that as well.
Ken
moved back firewall, subaru (similar weight as 0-320), Mackenzie STOL
cuffs, on wheels

Jesse Jenks wrote:



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_________________________________________________________________
i

Hi Tim !

Never a problem ! Part of Rick's problem might be
that he has his own homemade cuffs, and I think he also has
VG's .... both will keep the Rebel flying at incredibly steep angles,
to the point where the tailwheel would touch first .....
... IF you landed with some power on, as I think Rick mentioned
one time that he did, OR if you arrived at the runway with
too much speed, OR if you didn't pull the stick back s l o w l y
enough on flare ....

I think Rick used to land by flaring, then dumping flaps -
that's how he bent his bird - flared too high --- This is not
a good practice ! If you have a long steady descent, with
no power on, and a steady gentle levelling & steady pull back,
you will always get a good landing. The Rebel makes it easy !! :-)

In any case, I never had a problem with any of the Rebels
rolling the tailwheel first .... and I've got the cuffs & fences on
this one.... My stab IS set a <bit> lower than standard - -
.75 -- I think ....

You definitely do not want to mess with the angle of incidence
on the wing... It WAS changed by the factory on ALL production
kits after the prototype. Number 001 did fly a bit tail low in
cruise - but still had no problems landing. The change did dramatically
improve the forward visibility in cruise !

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Saturday 22 December 2007 03:02, Tim Hickey wrote:

Hello all and Merry Christmas.

Let me jump in here with a related question. I have been keeping my ears
(eyes?) open regarding the angle of incidence issues. What caught my
attention was a remark several (Many) months ago by Rick Harper about his
landings not being so good because the tail wheel was hitting the ground
well before the mains while trying to full stall land his bird. I realize
that no one answer will fit all Rebels, but this comment made me wonder if
perhaps there could or should be some adjustment to the angle of incidence
of the main wing. (which I do not even know if this is possible) From
Rick's comment I deduced (always dangerous) that maybe the angle of
incidence should be slightly increased so that at stall the airframe was in
a perfect three point attitude. But... and there is always a but... I have
no idea where his cg is, and I do recall that he is running an O-320, which
I will not be doing.

How about you Rotax guys: Do you find that the three point attitude and the
stall seem to come together just about right?

Tim Hickey
R808


----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 7:55 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel stab incidence

I think just putting them on the wings will help with getting the tail
down.
I know that on floats my angle of attack is now much steeper before the
stall than without the VGs. I never did put them on my stabs on the
Rebel, as I have never run out of elevator authority on floats.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Ronald
Shannon
Sent: December 21, 2007 5:24 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel stab incidence

Regarding flare control, does anyone have experience with the effect of
VG's
on the bottom rear of the stabilizers? (I vaguely recall some prior
discussion about this, but tried to find it recently without success.)

Ron

On 12/21/07, Ken <klehman@albedo.net> wrote:

...There are also numerous comments
about needing lots of up elevator for landing on wheels so this will
help that as well.

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I don't recall that from when I flew with him a few years back. I believe the
mishap occurred at a point landing contest where he was going for it.

Cheers,

Dave
elite583.cjb.net

Bob Patterson wrote:

I think Rick used to land by flaring, then dumping flaps -
that's how he bent his bird - flared too high --- This is not
a good practice !

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G'day Tim

My Rebel is fitted with a Rotax 912S and was constructed entirely as per the
instruction manual.

The Rebel three points just beautifully and even make my flying abilities
look good!
My landing "technique" is to use an idling descent, and at some point
(mostly when I think that I will fly
into the runway) I just gently pull back to get the plane into the three
point attitude and hold it there using increasing back stick as required to
maintain that attitude. Oh! And I never use the flaps as they are just not
required.

Then, if your engine is quiet enough, you can hear the three wheels gently
& simultaneously folding
over the blades of grass. That's it. A perfect three pointer!

Regards

Ian Donaldson


: How about you Rotax guys: Do you find that the three point attitude and
the
: stall seem to come together just about right?




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OK I'll toss out my thoughts while we're waiting for the Rotax guys to
speak up...

Any aerofoil change (VG's or cuffs) likely affects the center of lift
which likely affects how much up elevator is needed.

Changing the wing incidence is really difficult. I'd judge it not worth
the effort. You'd almost need to change the cage or rear mounts when
building the fuselage and it would mess with the upper and lower wing
fairings and the windshield or the door closing. The Rebel is unique and
it obviously works fine without mods.

119R with the STOL cuffs definately does not stall in the 3 point
attitude so I do consider it to be tricky to land compared to airplanes
that stall and stay down in the 3 point attitude. OK so it is different
and it's fun to learn how to exploit its characteristics. Landings are
fun! My best landings are tail first which for me is only achievable
with the stick firmly in the rear stops. Three points are fine as well
but touch a mainwheel first and it really wants to fly again and often
you better have power on to cushion the second touchdown or do the go
around. More than once I've been down (all three wheels) for several
seconds and had a gust lift me off the ground again. That can happen
with any taildragger and the Rebel handles it well when it does happen.
I like the abilty to dump the flaperons after touchdown with the manual
flap handle.

Some folks have commented that they think I'd like longer main gear legs
for landing but I do not agree. Other issues would surface. I still
intend to try the VG's on the stab in warmer weather but I'm not
convinced that will help much now that I have learned how to get the
tail down most of the time anyway.

The fairly heavy STOL taildragger that I used to fly had the same 4415
wing but it had 3 times as much flap deflection and twice the aileron
deflection which did guarantee a stalled wing in a 3 point attitude.
Most guys avoided full flap unless on floats when they kept power on.
You had to pay attention as it was easy to develop a high sink rate at
slow speed and then you needed serious power or altitude to recover. Can
you say "way behind the power curve"? I don't think the Rebel has
enough flap to significantly affect drag or stall attitude but it will
go around just fine with full flaperon. It takes very little power to
arrest my relatively mild Rebel sink rate which I think is at least
partly due to the STOL cuffs. I don't have experience on my airframe
without the leading edge cuffs for comparision. Anyway it is easier to
stay out of trouble with the Rebel and it has great capability to
exploit if you wish to.

Ken
(still a new guy with only 150 Rebel hours)


Tim Hickey wrote:

Hello all and Merry Christmas.

Let me jump in here with a related question. I have been keeping my ears
(eyes?) open regarding the angle of incidence issues. What caught my
attention was a remark several (Many) months ago by Rick Harper about his
landings not being so good because the tail wheel was hitting the ground
well before the mains while trying to full stall land his bird. I realize
that no one answer will fit all Rebels, but this comment made me wonder if
perhaps there could or should be some adjustment to the angle of incidence
of the main wing. (which I do not even know if this is possible) From
Rick's comment I deduced (always dangerous) that maybe the angle of
incidence should be slightly increased so that at stall the airframe was in
a perfect three point attitude. But... and there is always a but... I have
no idea where his cg is, and I do recall that he is running an O-320, which
I will not be doing.

How about you Rotax guys: Do you find that the three point attitude and the
stall seem to come together just about right?

Tim Hickey
R808


----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 7:55 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel stab incidence

I think just putting them on the wings will help with getting the tail
down.
I know that on floats my angle of attack is now much steeper before the
stall than without the VGs. I never did put them on my stabs on the Rebel,
as I have never run out of elevator authority on floats.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Ronald
Shannon
Sent: December 21, 2007 5:24 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel stab incidence

Regarding flare control, does anyone have experience with the effect of
VG's
on the bottom rear of the stabilizers? (I vaguely recall some prior
discussion about this, but tried to find it recently without success.)

Ron


On 12/21/07, Ken <klehman@albedo.net> wrote:

...There are also numerous comments
about needing lots of up elevator for landing on wheels so this will
help that as well.

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