The Murphy Builders Site

I've got 4 complete flaperons under the bench if you want to spend some
money and take a short cut.... ;O)

Sometimes you can spread the rib/trailing edge slightly to get the rivet in
and then squeeze things back in shape.

Rivets should drill out clean. I've drilled out probably 50,000+ now
rebuilding wrecks and had very few that ever needed to be up sized to even a
5/32. I rarely even bother to knock the mandrels out first...but some need a
light rap with a homemade punch to get them started...before you drill.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Walls" <snowyrvr@mtaonline.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:17 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] First Screw-up HELP!

Okay. I've been working on the ailerons. When I put the first trailing
edge on, I didn't stagger the two rivets that attach it to the ribs. I
didn't realize the two wouldn't fit inline. The ones closest to the edge
went fine on one side. The other side's edge rivets wouldn't fit because
they hit the ones I'd put in on the other side. They ended up sticking
out
and not right. I tried drilling them out and using a shortened version of
the rivet but the holes got messy and rough. Plus, once you assemble the
rib, it's nearly impossible to deburr when you re-drill it.



At this point I am ready to order new parts from MAM and rebuild the whole
thing. I know how crucial it is that the holes be the right size and not
ragged at all. Also, a larger diameter rivet won't work because a larger
one for sure won't fit in that tiny space. I could possible drill them
all
out and then just replace the trailing edge but drill those dang things
out
is a crap shoot and I'd probably end up damaging the ribs as well.



So are there any neat tricks/fixes I don't know yet or is this a do over?
Craig





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Craig

I drill out rivets with one size smaller drill bit and break the heads
off. Usually without damaging the hole or requiring de-burring.
Sometimes it is necessary to squeeze the back of the rivet with
sidecutters to force the steel mandrel out so it doesn't interfere with
the drill bit. The sidecutters will also grab the back of the rivet to
wiggle it out after the head is broken off.

Larger 5/32" avex rivets are the first choice with a damaged hole.
Sometimes you can also add a doubler. Perhaps 2" or so long and shaped
like the back of the rib such that it fits inside the rib? Another trick
is to shorten the avex rivet before installing it. I occasionally put
one in a lathe or drill press and shorten the aluminum rivet with a
hacksaw blade. They still seem to pull OK and grip. Sometimes you can
also start pulling the rivet slightly with a manual hand riveter and
then push it into the hole a bit further before pulling it all the way.
I think you are right to get this done acceptably because the fabric
shrinks down and pulls firmly on that trailing edge.

The same issue of staggering the rivets will come up with the elevators,
rudder, and the control horns where they fasten to the 2" torque tubes.
And also at the rear of the fibreglass tips.

Ken

Craig Walls wrote:

Okay. I've been working on the ailerons. When I put the first trailing
edge on, I didn't stagger the two rivets that attach it to the ribs. I
didn't realize the two wouldn't fit inline. The ones closest to the edge
went fine on one side. The other side's edge rivets wouldn't fit because
they hit the ones I'd put in on the other side. They ended up sticking out
and not right. I tried drilling them out and using a shortened version of
the rivet but the holes got messy and rough. Plus, once you assemble the
rib, it's nearly impossible to deburr when you re-drill it.



At this point I am ready to order new parts from MAM and rebuild the whole
thing. I know how crucial it is that the holes be the right size and not
ragged at all. Also, a larger diameter rivet won't work because a larger
one for sure won't fit in that tiny space. I could possible drill them all
out and then just replace the trailing edge but drill those dang things out
is a crap shoot and I'd probably end up damaging the ribs as well.



So are there any neat tricks/fixes I don't know yet or is this a do over?
Craig

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Hi Craig !

Now you know wht we recommend going to the ARCHIVES
section & doing a keyword search on the body for things like
'aileron' and 'rivets' ....... ;-)

There are helpful tips in there for every section - and it's
a good idea to check it out before starting each piece !!

You CAN put in the bottom rivets if you do it by hand, just
pushing them in as far as you can, then gently squeezing just
a bit, to shorten the rivet, then pushing more, & squeezing,
until you get the rivet in & straight .... especially if
you shorten the rivets first.

If you have only messed up one rib, you could maybe
make up a doubler to fit inside the rib end, and use oversized
rivets through that. It would be a triangular shape, with
flanges to match the rib, and maybe an inch or 2 beyond the
trailing edge, so you could add another rivet or 2 to hold
it in place inboard of the trailing edge. You might even add
a thin strip of aluminum over top of the trailing edge &
up onto the section with the doubler - so you'd end up with
a sandwich .... not pretty, but strong enough .....
only if the trailing edge holes are really chewed up ...

Or...... chalk it up to experience, and order new parts !
That's the advantage of starting with small parts - not so
expensive when you screw up !!! ;-) :-)

--
......bobp
http://www.prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 25 October 2007 02:17, Craig Walls wrote:

Okay. I've been working on the ailerons. When I put the first trailing
edge on, I didn't stagger the two rivets that attach it to the ribs. I
didn't realize the two wouldn't fit inline. The ones closest to the edge
went fine on one side. The other side's edge rivets wouldn't fit because
they hit the ones I'd put in on the other side. They ended up sticking out
and not right. I tried drilling them out and using a shortened version of
the rivet but the holes got messy and rough. Plus, once you assemble the
rib, it's nearly impossible to deburr when you re-drill it.



At this point I am ready to order new parts from MAM and rebuild the whole
thing. I know how crucial it is that the holes be the right size and not
ragged at all. Also, a larger diameter rivet won't work because a larger
one for sure won't fit in that tiny space. I could possible drill them all
out and then just replace the trailing edge but drill those dang things out
is a crap shoot and I'd probably end up damaging the ribs as well.



So are there any neat tricks/fixes I don't know yet or is this a do over?
Craig

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Thanks all for your helpful comments. BTW, what gauge is the rib
material..anyone know? Haven't been building long enough to have any extra
aluminum lying around. Or alternatively, what gauge should a doubler be for
the rib? Thanks again Craig

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 6:45 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] First Screw-up HELP!

Craig

I drill out rivets with one size smaller drill bit and break the heads
off. Usually without damaging the hole or requiring de-burring.
Sometimes it is necessary to squeeze the back of the rivet with
sidecutters to force the steel mandrel out so it doesn't interfere with
the drill bit. The sidecutters will also grab the back of the rivet to
wiggle it out after the head is broken off.

Larger 5/32" avex rivets are the first choice with a damaged hole.
Sometimes you can also add a doubler. Perhaps 2" or so long and shaped
like the back of the rib such that it fits inside the rib? Another trick
is to shorten the avex rivet before installing it. I occasionally put
one in a lathe or drill press and shorten the aluminum rivet with a
hacksaw blade. They still seem to pull OK and grip. Sometimes you can
also start pulling the rivet slightly with a manual hand riveter and
then push it into the hole a bit further before pulling it all the way.
I think you are right to get this done acceptably because the fabric
shrinks down and pulls firmly on that trailing edge.

The same issue of staggering the rivets will come up with the elevators,
rudder, and the control horns where they fasten to the 2" torque tubes.
And also at the rear of the fibreglass tips.

Ken

Craig Walls wrote:

Okay. I've been working on the ailerons. When I put the first trailing
edge on, I didn't stagger the two rivets that attach it to the ribs. I
didn't realize the two wouldn't fit inline. The ones closest to the edge
went fine on one side. The other side's edge rivets wouldn't fit because
they hit the ones I'd put in on the other side. They ended up sticking out
and not right. I tried drilling them out and using a shortened version of
the rivet but the holes got messy and rough. Plus, once you assemble the
rib, it's nearly impossible to deburr when you re-drill it.



At this point I am ready to order new parts from MAM and rebuild the whole
thing. I know how crucial it is that the holes be the right size and not
ragged at all. Also, a larger diameter rivet won't work because a larger
one for sure won't fit in that tiny space. I could possible drill them all
out and then just replace the trailing edge but drill those dang things out
is a crap shoot and I'd probably end up damaging the ribs as well.



So are there any neat tricks/fixes I don't know yet or is this a do over?
Craig

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Think it's 0.020 and general practice seems to be to go a bit thicker on
doublers. I've done some at .025 but most at .032. However 0.020 is
easier to form and probably totally adequate there and you will have
lots of .020 scrap when you get into the fuselage or wing tanks. .032
would be awkward to bend like that.
Ken

Craig Walls wrote:

Thanks all for your helpful comments. BTW, what gauge is the rib
material..anyone know? Haven't been building long enough to have any extra
aluminum lying around. Or alternatively, what gauge should a doubler be for
the rib? Thanks again Craig

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Craig;
Wicks Aircraft supply carries a nifty hole deburring tool. Made by
Burraway, it can be found on page 301 of their 2007 catalog. Used in a
drill it has a 1/4" shank and comes in 2 sizes 3/32" PN 2938 at $62.43,
and 1/8" PN 2125 at $52.50. the tool uses replaceable blades that are
spring loaded and recess into the shank to pass through the hole to be
deburred, allowing both sides of the metal to be cleaned up in just a
few seconds. It is a very handy item to have on hand for those
impossible places.
Phone orders 800-221-9425, www.wicksaircraft.com ask for their catalog,
lots of good stuff that some others do not carry.

No don't order new parts. For every minor "problem" you run into it
usually can be fixed. Other wise you might as well order 2 kits from
Murphy to have all the spare parts you will need to be a
"perfectionist"! Unless of course you just can not live with it!!!
Fill the bad hole and move over about 1/4" and install a new rivet if it
is feasible.

Good luck, keep asking questions and enjoy the learning experience of
building your own airplane.

Dick Wampach SR-108

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Craig Walls
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 7:18 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] First Screw-up HELP!

Okay. I've been working on the ailerons. When I put the first trailing
edge on, I didn't stagger the two rivets that attach it to the ribs. I
didn't realize the two wouldn't fit inline. The ones closest to the
edge
went fine on one side. The other side's edge rivets wouldn't fit
because
they hit the ones I'd put in on the other side. They ended up sticking
out
and not right. I tried drilling them out and using a shortened version
of
the rivet but the holes got messy and rough. Plus, once you assemble
the
rib, it's nearly impossible to deburr when you re-drill it.



At this point I am ready to order new parts from MAM and rebuild the
whole
thing. I know how crucial it is that the holes be the right size and
not
ragged at all. Also, a larger diameter rivet won't work because a
larger
one for sure won't fit in that tiny space. I could possible drill them
all
out and then just replace the trailing edge but drill those dang things
out
is a crap shoot and I'd probably end up damaging the ribs as well.



So are there any neat tricks/fixes I don't know yet or is this a do
over?
Craig





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Hi Craig. I agree with what Richard (Dick) is saying. Do not let every
little imperfection bother you. The Flaperons are a good place to start as
by the time they get taped and fabric covered,then finishing tapes,
structurally they are very strong and these little imperfections will not
even be visible. Enjoy the experience - if bothered with something, kick
back, relax and have a beer. Bob J
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Wampach" <rwampach@comcast.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 1:16 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] First Screw-up HELP!

No don't order new parts. For every minor "problem" you run into it
usually can be fixed. Other wise you might as well order 2 kits from
Murphy to have all the spare parts you will need to be a
"perfectionist"! Unless of course you just can not live with it!!!
Fill the bad hole and move over about 1/4" and install a new rivet if it
is feasible.

Good luck, keep asking questions and enjoy the learning experience of
building your own airplane.

Dick Wampach SR-108

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Craig Walls
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 7:18 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] First Screw-up HELP!

Okay. I've been working on the ailerons. When I put the first trailing
edge on, I didn't stagger the two rivets that attach it to the ribs. I
didn't realize the two wouldn't fit inline. The ones closest to the
edge
went fine on one side. The other side's edge rivets wouldn't fit
because
they hit the ones I'd put in on the other side. They ended up sticking
out
and not right. I tried drilling them out and using a shortened version
of
the rivet but the holes got messy and rough. Plus, once you assemble
the
rib, it's nearly impossible to deburr when you re-drill it.



At this point I am ready to order new parts from MAM and rebuild the
whole
thing. I know how crucial it is that the holes be the right size and
not
ragged at all. Also, a larger diameter rivet won't work because a
larger
one for sure won't fit in that tiny space. I could possible drill them
all
out and then just replace the trailing edge but drill those dang things
out
is a crap shoot and I'd probably end up damaging the ribs as well.



So are there any neat tricks/fixes I don't know yet or is this a do
over?
Craig





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I found a complete kit #40 to 1/4" at the Sun'Fun flea market for much
cheaper. There are many kit every year...

Jean Poirier
Pr