The Murphy Builders Site

I have zero experience in a Moose, but my experience with my CH-300 might
help a little.
For 15 years I froze all of me except my toes in the winter time. If it was
below 20 outside, and overcast, (the Zenith has a large canopy that lets in
a light of sunlight), you were going to be cold. I finally got motivated to
do something, and I ended up putting a second heat muff on the exhaust pipe.
Muff number one, the original, feed air to muff number two, the new one, and
I get a lot more heat out put.

HOWEVER, in this process I discovered that there is a very large suction
around the canopy rails on the Zenith. No matter how much heat I put into
the cabin, it all got sucked instantly out past the canopy slides. I
discovered that by laying a 3 inch wide strip of cheap naugahyde (sp?) over
the gap, that the suction would pull it down tight and seal the hole. And
it made all the difference in the world.
So maybe you Moose guys might look for any large air leaks that are sucking
the heat out of the plane.

Tim Hickey
R808
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Waltman" <tedwaltman@i1ci.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 7:38 AM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Moose cabin heat




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If I tried to find all the air leaks I'd never get anything flying in at all
<grin>. Yep, you're right Tim, there a numerous air leaks! Better to spend
< some > time on that than adding more heat ducts.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Hickey
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 7:09 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Moose cabin heat

I have zero experience in a Moose, but my experience with my CH-300 might
help a little.
For 15 years I froze all of me except my toes in the winter time. If it was
below 20 outside, and overcast, (the Zenith has a large canopy that lets in
a light of sunlight), you were going to be cold. I finally got motivated to

do something, and I ended up putting a second heat muff on the exhaust pipe.

Muff number one, the original, feed air to muff number two, the new one, and

I get a lot more heat out put.

HOWEVER, in this process I discovered that there is a very large suction
around the canopy rails on the Zenith. No matter how much heat I put into
the cabin, it all got sucked instantly out past the canopy slides. I
discovered that by laying a 3 inch wide strip of cheap naugahyde (sp?) over
the gap, that the suction would pull it down tight and seal the hole. And
it made all the difference in the world.
So maybe you Moose guys might look for any large air leaks that are sucking
the heat out of the plane.

Tim Hickey
R808
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Waltman" <tedwaltman@i1ci.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 7:38 AM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Moose cabin heat




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The blankets will likely help more than a 12 volt cigarette lighter
heater which generally draws about 10 amps times 14 volts = 140 watts
or about 10% of what a small 110v room heater will do.

I notice that some manufacturers spot weld studs to the exhaust pipe to
help transfer heat to the air in the cuff. Bingelis talks about wrapping
a spring around the pipe for the same reason.

On sunny days I find that the rebel needs very little heat at around 15
F despite only having the curtain behind the bagage area and a bit of
insulation in only the doors. On cloudy days I do crack the heat valve
a wee bit. Generally the body loses more heat by radiation than anything
else which means that if you are surrounded by an uninsulated cold
fuselage and windows, it is difficult to feel warm even with fairly hot
cabin air temperature.

Ken

Ted Waltman wrote:

Heat, in a Moose? That's an oxymoron I believe <grin>. I had the std ACS
outlet in the firewall. Pilot & co-pilot feet are "relatively" warm but the
back seat passengers freeze. Notice I said feet and that I didn't comment
about the rest of the body. For reference, I've flown numerous times in
weather down to perhaps zero F (back and forth to Iowa from Colorado).

I'm assuming you're using the M-14P? I don't think there's enough heat
coming off of the std exhaust heat cuff to adequately support more than one
heat vent. After all, it's not like there's an excess of heat coming out of
just my one vent, let alone 2 or more in some other design.

I think I heard of someone adding a second heat cuff on the L side exhaust
stack, but I can't be sure and I don't remember who. Without at least a 2nd
heat cuff, I think you're wasting time and money on the Y adapter. Spend
your money on blankets and a plug in aux heater (like you can purchase for
car cigarette adapters) for the rear passengers.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Saxton
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2007 11:04 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Moose cabin heat

What are Moose builders doing for cabin heat and keeping the back seats
warm? The standard cabin heat box from ACS has 2" outlets. I was thinking of
using two of these each with Y connectors giving a total of four inlets, 2
to the front and 2 to the rear. Is anyone routing hot air under the floor to
the back seats? Where have you positioned the air vents?

Tim
SR060

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The "spring wrapped around the exhaust pipe" - ( inside the heat muff) - REALLY works well !
It increases the heat sink area & also turbulates the air for better mixing too ...

Biggus in OZ
541R
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 12:34 AM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Moose cabin heat


The blankets will likely help more than a 12 volt cigarette lighter
heater which generally draws about 10 amps times 14 volts = 140 watts
or about 10% of what a small 110v room heater will do.

I notice that some manufacturers spot weld studs to the exhaust pipe to
help transfer heat to the air in the cuff. Bingelis talks about wrapping
a spring around the pipe for the same reason.

On sunny days I find that the rebel needs very little heat at around 15
F despite only having the curtain behind the bagage area and a bit of
insulation in only the doors. On cloudy days I do crack the heat valve
a wee bit. Generally the body loses more heat by radiation than anything
else which means that if you are surrounded by an uninsulated cold
fuselage and windows, it is difficult to feel warm even with fairly hot
cabin air temperature.

Ken

Ted Waltman wrote:

Heat, in a Moose? That's an oxymoron I believe <grin>. I had the std ACS
outlet in the firewall. Pilot & co-pilot feet are "relatively" warm but the
back seat passengers freeze. Notice I said feet and that I didn't comment
about the rest of the body. For reference, I've flown numerous times in
weather down to perhaps zero F (back and forth to Iowa from Colorado).

I'm assuming you're using the M-14P? I don't think there's enough heat
coming off of the std exhaust heat cuff to adequately support more than one
heat vent. After all, it's not like there's an excess of heat coming out of
just my one vent, let alone 2 or more in some other design.

I think I heard of someone adding a second heat cuff on the L side exhaust
stack, but I can't be sure and I don't remember who. Without at least a 2nd
heat cuff, I think you're wasting time and money on the Y adapter. Spend
your money on blankets and a plug in aux heater (like you can purchase for
car cigarette adapters) for the rear passengers.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Saxton
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2007 11:04 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Moose cabin heat

What are Moose builders doing for cabin heat and keeping the back seats
warm? The standard cabin heat box from ACS has 2" outlets. I was thinking of
using two of these each with Y connectors giving a total of four inlets, 2
to the front and 2 to the rear. Is anyone routing hot air under the floor to
the back seats? Where have you positioned the air vents?

Tim
SR060

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One of the things that I've incorporated, with the recommendation of a
couple local builders, was to put a stainless steel pot scrubber inside my
heat muff (which is quite large on the Rotax muffler) in order to slow down
the air flow and to give more area for heat transfer.
It's still way to early to let you know how it works - but lot's of hot air
during static run up.
Cheers
Jim
Rebel 333



On 3/27/2007 8:49 AM, "Rick Harper" <rjwh@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

The "spring wrapped around the exhaust pipe" - ( inside the heat muff) -
REALLY works well !
It increases the heat sink area & also turbulates the air for better mixing
too ...

Biggus in OZ
541R
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 12:34 AM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Moose cabin heat


The blankets will likely help more than a 12 volt cigarette lighter
heater which generally draws about 10 amps times 14 volts = 140 watts
or about 10% of what a small 110v room heater will do.

I notice that some manufacturers spot weld studs to the exhaust pipe to
help transfer heat to the air in the cuff. Bingelis talks about wrapping
a spring around the pipe for the same reason.

On sunny days I find that the rebel needs very little heat at around 15
F despite only having the curtain behind the bagage area and a bit of
insulation in only the doors. On cloudy days I do crack the heat valve
a wee bit. Generally the body loses more heat by radiation than anything
else which means that if you are surrounded by an uninsulated cold
fuselage and windows, it is difficult to feel warm even with fairly hot
cabin air temperature.

Ken

Ted Waltman wrote:

Heat, in a Moose? That's an oxymoron I believe <grin>. I had the std ACS
outlet in the firewall. Pilot & co-pilot feet are "relatively" warm but the
back seat passengers freeze. Notice I said feet and that I didn't comment
about the rest of the body. For reference, I've flown numerous times in
weather down to perhaps zero F (back and forth to Iowa from Colorado).

I'm assuming you're using the M-14P? I don't think there's enough heat
coming off of the std exhaust heat cuff to adequately support more than one
heat vent. After all, it's not like there's an excess of heat coming out of
just my one vent, let alone 2 or more in some other design.

I think I heard of someone adding a second heat cuff on the L side exhaust
stack, but I can't be sure and I don't remember who. Without at least a 2nd
heat cuff, I think you're wasting time and money on the Y adapter. Spend
your money on blankets and a plug in aux heater (like you can purchase for
car cigarette adapters) for the rear passengers.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Saxton
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2007 11:04 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Moose cabin heat

What are Moose builders doing for cabin heat and keeping the back seats
warm? The standard cabin heat box from ACS has 2" outlets. I was thinking of
using two of these each with Y connectors giving a total of four inlets, 2
to the front and 2 to the rear. Is anyone routing hot air under the floor to
the back seats? Where have you positioned the air vents?

Tim
SR060

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Hi Ted and Tim,

Actually I'm using an IO-540 (290HP) and probably an exhaust from Aircraft
Exhaust Inc. The exhaust will have a mufflers with heat muffs, so there will
be plenty of heat. I will make an effort to close up the air leaks; it might
be a challenge getting a nice tight fit around all of the doors. If you do
get rid of the leaks then the air needs somewhere to exit, otherwise no warm
air can get in. Maybe it will be necessary to have a small exhaust screen in
the rear cargo bulkhead/door area so that air can exit down the tailcone and
out through the stinger area. I assume that this will be a low pressure
area.

Has no one made a serious effort to keep the back passengers warm?

Tim
SR060


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Waltman" <tedwaltman@i1ci.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 5:38 AM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Moose cabin heat

Heat, in a Moose? That's an oxymoron I believe <grin>. I had the std ACS
outlet in the firewall. Pilot & co-pilot feet are "relatively" warm but
the
back seat passengers freeze. Notice I said feet and that I didn't comment
about the rest of the body. For reference, I've flown numerous times in
weather down to perhaps zero F (back and forth to Iowa from Colorado).

I'm assuming you're using the M-14P? I don't think there's enough heat
coming off of the std exhaust heat cuff to adequately support more than
one
heat vent. After all, it's not like there's an excess of heat coming out
of
just my one vent, let alone 2 or more in some other design.

I think I heard of someone adding a second heat cuff on the L side exhaust
stack, but I can't be sure and I don't remember who. Without at least a
2nd
heat cuff, I think you're wasting time and money on the Y adapter. Spend
your money on blankets and a plug in aux heater (like you can purchase for
car cigarette adapters) for the rear passengers.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Saxton
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2007 11:04 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Moose cabin heat

What are Moose builders doing for cabin heat and keeping the back seats
warm? The standard cabin heat box from ACS has 2" outlets. I was thinking
of
using two of these each with Y connectors giving a total of four inlets, 2
to the front and 2 to the rear. Is anyone routing hot air under the floor
to
the back seats? Where have you positioned the air vents?

Tim
SR060



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--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.20/736 - Release Date: 3/27/2007
4:38 PM

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What do you need a heater for in Oz? Just kidding. I froze my ass off more
than once over Woomera and flying to Mangalore in my Renegade! Of course,
that was an open cockpit.

Mike
044SR

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Harper
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 5:50 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Moose cabin heat

The "spring wrapped around the exhaust pipe" - ( inside the heat muff) -
REALLY works well !
It increases the heat sink area & also turbulates the air for better mixing
too ...

Biggus in OZ
541R
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 12:34 AM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Moose cabin heat


The blankets will likely help more than a 12 volt cigarette lighter
heater which generally draws about 10 amps times 14 volts = 140 watts
or about 10% of what a small 110v room heater will do.

I notice that some manufacturers spot weld studs to the exhaust pipe to
help transfer heat to the air in the cuff. Bingelis talks about wrapping
a spring around the pipe for the same reason.

On sunny days I find that the rebel needs very little heat at around 15
F despite only having the curtain behind the bagage area and a bit of
insulation in only the doors. On cloudy days I do crack the heat valve
a wee bit. Generally the body loses more heat by radiation than anything
else which means that if you are surrounded by an uninsulated cold
fuselage and windows, it is difficult to feel warm even with fairly hot
cabin air temperature.

Ken

Ted Waltman wrote:

Heat, in a Moose? That's an oxymoron I believe <grin>. I had the std

ACS

outlet in the firewall. Pilot & co-pilot feet are "relatively" warm but

the

back seat passengers freeze. Notice I said feet and that I didn't

comment

about the rest of the body. For reference, I've flown numerous times in
weather down to perhaps zero F (back and forth to Iowa from Colorado).

I'm assuming you're using the M-14P? I don't think there's enough heat
coming off of the std exhaust heat cuff to adequately support more than

one

heat vent. After all, it's not like there's an excess of heat coming out

of

just my one vent, let alone 2 or more in some other design.

I think I heard of someone adding a second heat cuff on the L side

exhaust

stack, but I can't be sure and I don't remember who. Without at least a

2nd

heat cuff, I think you're wasting time and money on the Y adapter. Spend
your money on blankets and a plug in aux heater (like you can purchase

for

car cigarette adapters) for the rear passengers.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Saxton
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2007 11:04 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Moose cabin heat

What are Moose builders doing for cabin heat and keeping the back seats
warm? The standard cabin heat box from ACS has 2" outlets. I was thinking

of

using two of these each with Y connectors giving a total of four inlets,

2

to the front and 2 to the rear. Is anyone routing hot air under the floor

to

the back seats? Where have you positioned the air vents?

Tim
SR060

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I don't know what all the trouble is. The heater in my Chevy Super Rebel
works great. :-)

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Saxton
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 6:37 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Moose cabin heat

Hi Ted and Tim,

Actually I'm using an IO-540 (290HP) and probably an exhaust from Aircraft
Exhaust Inc. The exhaust will have a mufflers with heat muffs, so there will

be plenty of heat. I will make an effort to close up the air leaks; it might

be a challenge getting a nice tight fit around all of the doors. If you do
get rid of the leaks then the air needs somewhere to exit, otherwise no warm

air can get in. Maybe it will be necessary to have a small exhaust screen in

the rear cargo bulkhead/door area so that air can exit down the tailcone and

out through the stinger area. I assume that this will be a low pressure
area.

Has no one made a serious effort to keep the back passengers warm?

Tim
SR060


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Waltman" <tedwaltman@i1ci.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 5:38 AM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Moose cabin heat

Heat, in a Moose? That's an oxymoron I believe <grin>. I had the std ACS
outlet in the firewall. Pilot & co-pilot feet are "relatively" warm but
the
back seat passengers freeze. Notice I said feet and that I didn't comment
about the rest of the body. For reference, I've flown numerous times in
weather down to perhaps zero F (back and forth to Iowa from Colorado).

I'm assuming you're using the M-14P? I don't think there's enough heat
coming off of the std exhaust heat cuff to adequately support more than
one
heat vent. After all, it's not like there's an excess of heat coming out
of
just my one vent, let alone 2 or more in some other design.

I think I heard of someone adding a second heat cuff on the L side exhaust
stack, but I can't be sure and I don't remember who. Without at least a
2nd
heat cuff, I think you're wasting time and money on the Y adapter. Spend
your money on blankets and a plug in aux heater (like you can purchase for
car cigarette adapters) for the rear passengers.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Saxton
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2007 11:04 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Moose cabin heat

What are Moose builders doing for cabin heat and keeping the back seats
warm? The standard cabin heat box from ACS has 2" outlets. I was thinking
of
using two of these each with Y connectors giving a total of four inlets, 2
to the front and 2 to the rear. Is anyone routing hot air under the floor
to
the back seats? Where have you positioned the air vents?

Tim
SR060



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--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.20/736 - Release Date: 3/27/2007

4:38 PM

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