The Murphy Builders Site

Seeking some information about a retrofit of the split flap ststem on an
airfeame with the wings, flaps, and ailerons all complete. Is there any
disassembly of any components? Are there a lot of new parts to install?
What are some of the pros and cons about them.

From: Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - Split flaps
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:54:31 +0000

Hi Keith !

You have to switch positions of the flapperons, to move
the drive horns on the inboard sections to the root end,
then install about 25 lb of extra tubing, much larger
flap handle, & cable to drive them. Because there are
only 2 hanger brackets, you can't extend them any lower
than they would go with the flapperons without risk.

You will end up with a crippled Rebel with half the aileron
and half the flap ! Don't do it !!! Everyone I know who
tried it switched back as soon as possible .....

Only exceptions are about 7 Rebels in Newfoundland -
for some reason, they seem to think "Cessna did it, so it
must be good" ! They think it works better that way on floats -
all experienced Rebel float pilots in Ontario have chosen
the flapperons.

--
......bobp
http://www.prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 14 March 2007 06:46, keith@dcsol.com wrote:

Seeking some information about a retrofit of the split flap ststem on an
airfeame with the wings, flaps, and ailerons all complete. Is there any
disassembly of any components? Are there a lot of new parts to install?
What are some of the pros and cons about them.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Bob
I believe the Newfoundland boys split the flaps because one of them at one
time deployed the flaperons over 80 mph (maybe well over) and the controls
just about locked up. I have testomony to that from one of the guys.

Steve W 637R

From: Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - Split flaps
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:54:31 +0000

Hi Keith !

You have to switch positions of the flapperons, to move
the drive horns on the inboard sections to the root end,
then install about 25 lb of extra tubing, much larger
flap handle, & cable to drive them. Because there are
only 2 hanger brackets, you can't extend them any lower
than they would go with the flapperons without risk.

You will end up with a crippled Rebel with half the aileron
and half the flap ! Don't do it !!! Everyone I know who
tried it switched back as soon as possible .....

Only exceptions are about 7 Rebels in Newfoundland -
for some reason, they seem to think "Cessna did it, so it
must be good" ! They think it works better that way on floats -
all experienced Rebel float pilots in Ontario have chosen
the flapperons.

--
......bobp
http://www.prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 14 March 2007 06:46, keith@dcsol.com wrote:

Seeking some information about a retrofit of the split flap ststem on
an
airfeame with the wings, flaps, and ailerons all complete. Is there any
disassembly of any components? Are there a lot of new parts to install?
What are some of the pros and cons about them.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
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List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
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_________________________________________________________________
Get Out Of The House - Ski, Skate & Sun
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Bob
I believe the Newfoundland boys split the flaps because one of them at one
time deployed the flaperons over 80 mph (maybe well over) and the controls
just about locked up. I have testomony to that from one of the guys.

Steve W 637R

From: Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - Split flaps
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:54:31 +0000

Hi Keith !

You have to switch positions of the flapperons, to move
the drive horns on the inboard sections to the root end,
then install about 25 lb of extra tubing, much larger
flap handle, & cable to drive them. Because there are
only 2 hanger brackets, you can't extend them any lower
than they would go with the flapperons without risk.

You will end up with a crippled Rebel with half the aileron
and half the flap ! Don't do it !!! Everyone I know who
tried it switched back as soon as possible .....

Only exceptions are about 7 Rebels in Newfoundland -
for some reason, they seem to think "Cessna did it, so it
must be good" ! They think it works better that way on floats -
all experienced Rebel float pilots in Ontario have chosen
the flapperons.

--
......bobp
http://www.prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 14 March 2007 06:46, keith@dcsol.com wrote:

Seeking some information about a retrofit of the split flap ststem on an
airfeame with the wings, flaps, and ailerons all complete. Is there any
disassembly of any components? Are there a lot of new parts to install?
What are some of the pros and cons about them.

From: Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - Split flaps
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:08:07 +0000

Interesting, Steve !

I'd like to meet they guy - he must have HUGE arms !!
It's pretty hard to pull them down at 75 mph, never mind
80 ++ !! In test flying, years ago, I have flown the Rebel
with full flapperon down, up to about 95 mph - still had
good roll control. The control force gets pretty high,
and I certainly wouldn't suggest anyone should do that !

If he was strong enough to pull the flapperons down
at high speed, the control force shouldn't have been a
big deal for him ..... I guess that's how rumours start !
In any case, the solution would be to watch & control your
speed, not butcher the airplane !! Even with half the
flap area, if he goes too fast, he risks ripping them off !!!

--
......bobp
http://www.prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 14 March 2007 16:33, steve whitenect wrote:

Bob
I believe the Newfoundland boys split the flaps because one of them at

one

time deployed the flaperons over 80 mph (maybe well over) and the

controls

just about locked up. I have testomony to that from one of the guys.

Steve W 637R

From: Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - Split flaps
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:54:31 +0000

Hi Keith !

You have to switch positions of the flapperons, to move
the drive horns on the inboard sections to the root end,
then install about 25 lb of extra tubing, much larger
flap handle, & cable to drive them. Because there are
only 2 hanger brackets, you can't extend them any lower
than they would go with the flapperons without risk.

You will end up with a crippled Rebel with half the aileron
and half the flap ! Don't do it !!! Everyone I know who
tried it switched back as soon as possible .....

Only exceptions are about 7 Rebels in Newfoundland -
for some reason, they seem to think "Cessna did it, so it
must be good" ! They think it works better that way on floats -
all experienced Rebel float pilots in Ontario have chosen
the flapperons.

--
......bobp
http://www.prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 14 March 2007 06:46, keith@dcsol.com wrote:

on an

any

install?

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-----------------------------------------------------------------

This was quite a while ago (over 10 years ago) when I was still living on
the Rock but the lock up was such that there was no aileron control. From
what I can remember it was enough of a scare that he split the flaps.
Control came back with a decrease in airspeed but it was enough to make a
decission right then and there to modify the system. Actually the guy isn't
very big!

Steve W

From: Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - Split flaps
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:08:07 +0000

Interesting, Steve !

I'd like to meet they guy - he must have HUGE arms !!
It's pretty hard to pull them down at 75 mph, never mind
80 ++ !! In test flying, years ago, I have flown the Rebel
with full flapperon down, up to about 95 mph - still had
good roll control. The control force gets pretty high,
and I certainly wouldn't suggest anyone should do that !

If he was strong enough to pull the flapperons down
at high speed, the control force shouldn't have been a
big deal for him ..... I guess that's how rumours start !
In any case, the solution would be to watch & control your
speed, not butcher the airplane !! Even with half the
flap area, if he goes too fast, he risks ripping them off !!!

--
......bobp
http://www.prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 14 March 2007 16:33, steve whitenect wrote:

Bob
I believe the Newfoundland boys split the flaps because one of them at

one

time deployed the flaperons over 80 mph (maybe well over) and the

controls

just about locked up. I have testomony to that from one of the guys.

Steve W 637R

on an

any

install?

Well, as I said, that is how rumours start. It might have been his
perception that the ailerons were too stiff to move - but that is
impossible ! No matter how much load he put on the flapperons,
they would still give roll control if they were moved - and there
is no way that loading them could jam the mechanism as he claims.

If he believes that he can lower the flaps at a higher speed
or larger angle because they are split, he is wrong, and endangering
his Rebel. All he has accomplished is lightening the force required
to move the ailerons - as well as reducing their effectiveness by
one-half ! He has also made the flaps much less effective by
reducing their area. Removing the ability to alter the whole
airfoil section also removes the possibility of having a reflex wing
(negative flapperon) which gives a cruise speed increase and
a better ride in rough air, by getting rid of excess lift.

That's what makes homebuilding interesting - everyone gets
to do what they think is best .... ;-)

--
......bobp
http://www.prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 14 March 2007 18:33, steve whitenect wrote:

This was quite a while ago (over 10 years ago) when I was still living
on
the Rock but the lock up was such that there was no aileron control. From
what I can remember it was enough of a scare that he split the flaps.
Control came back with a decrease in airspeed but it was enough to make a
decission right then and there to modify the system. Actually the guy
isn't
very big!

Steve W

From: Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - Split flaps
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:08:07 +0000

Interesting, Steve !

I'd like to meet they guy - he must have HUGE arms !!
It's pretty hard to pull them down at 75 mph, never mind
80 ++ !! In test flying, years ago, I have flown the Rebel
with full flapperon down, up to about 95 mph - still had
good roll control. The control force gets pretty high,
and I certainly wouldn't suggest anyone should do that !

If he was strong enough to pull the flapperons down
at high speed, the control force shouldn't have been a
big deal for him ..... I guess that's how rumours start !
In any case, the solution would be to watch & control your
speed, not butcher the airplane !! Even with half the
flap area, if he goes too fast, he risks ripping them off !!!

--
......bobp
http://www.prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 14 March 2007 16:33, steve whitenect wrote: one controls on an any install?

-----------------------------------------------------------------
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-----------------------------------------------------------------

Well, as I said, that is how rumours start. It might have been his
perception that the ailerons were too stiff to move - but that is
impossible ! No matter how much load he put on the flapperons,
they would still give roll control if they were moved - and there
is no way that loading them could jam the mechanism as he claims.

If he believes that he can lower the flaps at a higher speed
or larger angle because they are split, he is wrong, and endangering
his Rebel. All he has accomplished is lightening the force required
to move the ailerons - as well as reducing their effectiveness by
one-half ! He has also made the flaps much less effective by
reducing their area. Removing the ability to alter the whole
airfoil section also removes the possibility of having a reflex wing
(negative flapperon) which gives a cruise speed increase and
a better ride in rough air, by getting rid of excess lift.

That's what makes homebuilding interesting - everyone gets
to do what they think is best .... ;-)

--
......bobp
http://www.prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 14 March 2007 18:33, steve whitenect wrote:

This was quite a while ago (over 10 years ago) when I was still living
on
the Rock but the lock up was such that there was no aileron control. From
what I can remember it was enough of a scare that he split the flaps.
Control came back with a decrease in airspeed but it was enough to make a
decission right then and there to modify the system. Actually the guy
isn't
very big!

Steve W

From: Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - Split flaps
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:08:07 +0000

Interesting, Steve !

I'd like to meet they guy - he must have HUGE arms !!
It's pretty hard to pull them down at 75 mph, never mind
80 ++ !! In test flying, years ago, I have flown the Rebel
with full flapperon down, up to about 95 mph - still had
good roll control. The control force gets pretty high,
and I certainly wouldn't suggest anyone should do that !

If he was strong enough to pull the flapperons down
at high speed, the control force shouldn't have been a
big deal for him ..... I guess that's how rumours start !
In any case, the solution would be to watch & control your
speed, not butcher the airplane !! Even with half the
flap area, if he goes too fast, he risks ripping them off !!!

--
......bobp
http://www.prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 14 March 2007 16:33, steve whitenect wrote: one controls on an any install?

-----------------------------------------------------------------
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-----------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Steve and Bob,
Steve, I just wanted to point out that our friend Tom did have an electric
motor directly linked to the "modified" mixer to extend the flapperons. So
he likely had a lot more flapperon deflection than the maximum recomended
3-notch teleflex cable set-up.

Bob, send me your mailing address so I can get that fibreglass tail skid to
you.

Clay
Rebel 460


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <beep@sympatico.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - Split flaps

Well, as I said, that is how rumours start. It might have been his
perception that the ailerons were too stiff to move - but that is
impossible ! No matter how much load he put on the flapperons,
they would still give roll control if they were moved - and there
is no way that loading them could jam the mechanism as he claims.

If he believes that he can lower the flaps at a higher speed
or larger angle because they are split, he is wrong, and endangering
his Rebel. All he has accomplished is lightening the force required
to move the ailerons - as well as reducing their effectiveness by
one-half ! He has also made the flaps much less effective by
reducing their area. Removing the ability to alter the whole
airfoil section also removes the possibility of having a reflex wing
(negative flapperon) which gives a cruise speed increase and
a better ride in rough air, by getting rid of excess lift.

That's what makes homebuilding interesting - everyone gets
to do what they think is best .... ;-)

--
......bobp
http://www.prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 14 March 2007 18:33, steve whitenect wrote:

This was quite a while ago (over 10 years ago) when I was still living
on
the Rock but the lock up was such that there was no aileron control. From
what I can remember it was enough of a scare that he split the flaps.
Control came back with a decrease in airspeed but it was enough to make a
decission right then and there to modify the system. Actually the guy
isn't
very big!

Steve W

From: "Clay Smith" <cbsmith@nf.sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - Split flaps
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:22:26 -0330

Hi Steve and Bob,
Steve, I just wanted to point out that our friend Tom did have an electric
motor directly linked to the "modified" mixer to extend the flapperons. So
he likely had a lot more flapperon deflection than the maximum recomended
3-notch teleflex cable set-up.

Bob, send me your mailing address so I can get that fibreglass tail skid to
you.

Clay
Rebel 460


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <beep@sympatico.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - Split flaps

Well, as I said, that is how rumours start. It might have been his
perception that the ailerons were too stiff to move - but that is
impossible ! No matter how much load he put on the flapperons,
they would still give roll control if they were moved - and there
is no way that loading them could jam the mechanism as he claims.

If he believes that he can lower the flaps at a higher speed
or larger angle because they are split, he is wrong, and endangering
his Rebel. All he has accomplished is lightening the force required
to move the ailerons - as well as reducing their effectiveness by
one-half ! He has also made the flaps much less effective by
reducing their area. Removing the ability to alter the whole
airfoil section also removes the possibility of having a reflex wing
(negative flapperon) which gives a cruise speed increase and
a better ride in rough air, by getting rid of excess lift.

That's what makes homebuilding interesting - everyone gets
to do what they think is best .... ;-)

--
......bobp
http://www.prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 14 March 2007 18:33, steve whitenect wrote:

This was quite a while ago (over 10 years ago) when I was still living
on
the Rock but the lock up was such that there was no aileron control.

From

what I can remember it was enough of a scare that he split the flaps.
Control came back with a decrease in airspeed but it was enough to make

a

decission right then and there to modify the system. Actually the guy
isn't
very big!

Steve W

guys.

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-----------------------------------------------------------------

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Hi Clay
I couldn't remember what Tommy had for a setup at the time but I do
remember
the conversation and his concern. He is flying one of the last two engines
I
rebuilt before leaving the Rock. If your in touch with Tommy, I wonder how
many hours he has on the Rebel now? Ken Beanlands snr (Rebel)sent some
pictures to Gilbert Tessier (Elite) of Tommy's plane. Very pretty plane
with
a simple scheme. I didn't even recognize it! Great memory!

Steve W 637R

From: "Clay Smith" <cbsmith@nf.sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - Split flaps
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:22:26 -0330

Hi Steve and Bob,
Steve, I just wanted to point out that our friend Tom did have an electric
motor directly linked to the "modified" mixer to extend the flapperons.
So
he likely had a lot more flapperon deflection than the maximum recomended
3-notch teleflex cable set-up.

Bob, send me your mailing address so I can get that fibreglass tail skid
to
you.

Clay
Rebel 460


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <beep@sympatico.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - Split flaps

Well, as I said, that is how rumours start. It might have been his
perception that the ailerons were too stiff to move - but that is
impossible ! No matter how much load he put on the flapperons,
they would still give roll control if they were moved - and there
is no way that loading them could jam the mechanism as he claims.

If he believes that he can lower the flaps at a higher speed
or larger angle because they are split, he is wrong, and endangering
his Rebel. All he has accomplished is lightening the force required
to move the ailerons - as well as reducing their effectiveness by
one-half ! He has also made the flaps much less effective by
reducing their area. Removing the ability to alter the whole
airfoil section also removes the possibility of having a reflex wing
(negative flapperon) which gives a cruise speed increase and
a better ride in rough air, by getting rid of excess lift.

That's what makes homebuilding interesting - everyone gets
to do what they think is best .... ;-)

--
......bobp
http://www.prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 14 March 2007 18:33, steve whitenect wrote:

From

a

guys.

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_________________________________________________________________
This March Break, Have An Outdoor Fun-For-All!
http://local.live.com/?mkt=en-ca/?v=2&c ... 6E357F!147




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