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Hi to all. Bill N. has my sympathy. I too can't three point land my Rebel. I
am slowly coming around to thinking that there is something with the
airplane( MY airplane not all Rebels!) that creates this situation. There
has to be, I have been making three point landings for a long time and with
the majority coming out just fine. As far as bobp.'s technique...you can't
argue with success, I suppose, but I am just speaking about the speed that
is indicated on a short final, what speeds you do around the pattern is
fairly irrelevant. I am using 60 mph on final and probably cross the fence
at that speed. If I try to three point, two things happen that are scary,
first the airplane floats(unacceptable on a 1300 foot strip!) for maybe a
distance of 200 to 300 feet of more. Next instead of settling like all my
other taildraggers, it does NOT settle. It stops flying and drops the
remaining inches, and it drops hard. I will try some baggage at different
weights and not at my strip, but somewhere with some more length. The
airspeed is also driving me to drink. In cruise it indicates 80-85 mph, but
the GPS indicates a no wind 105 plus mph. Of course! A low reading ASI! No,
because on take-off the airplane goes light at around 50 mph and starts to
really fly at 60 mph. That's in the ballpark. On final, in agreement with
bobp's comments, it won't fly below 60 mph without a hefty rate of sink.
Whatever bobp is doing airspeedwise and he can't be doing all that much
wrong having as many Rebelhours as he has, if he truly were crossing the
fence at 75 mph, he too would float forever. There has to be a point where
he reduces the speed on a very short final. He just won't tell us, how he
does that. Finally there must be a hundred variations among builders
regarding angles of attack, placement of pitots, other placement angles of
the wing and so on, so it is difficult comparing notes, you may be doing the
old apples and oranges comparison. I have two more comments, but I am doing
those in a seperate e.mail, they have nothing to do with landings. Geert
Frank

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I reduce the speed by levelling off a few feet above the runway,
and letting the speed bleed of, while lowering the tail. The trick is to
aim for a point well before where you want to touch down, so the float
doesn't use up useful runway. (I aim for the numbers, or a bit before)
One important point - being a glider pilot, and, in keeping with my
flight training in 1957, I close the throttle gradually as I turn
base, and do the final without ANY power. I don't like the idea of
depending on the engine .... (this routine was modified slightly
over the years to avoid shock cooling problems - they used to just
chop the power completely when turning base !) If you DO drag it
in with power, let the wheels (3) touch before closing the throttle,
because it stops flying <immediately> ! ;-)


The Rebel should be able to lift off at about 40 mph, with
full flap ...

Your airspeed indicator IS misreading, like MANY other Rebels.
I had to change indicators twice & pitots three times to get acceptable
readings on FOKM. The problem is the wide range of angles and speeds
that the Rebel is capable of !

I'm told that the ideal place for a pitot is about 3 or 4 inches
below the wing, about 1/3 of the way back from the leading edge. This
makes a clip on the wing strut appealing, as the pitot line usually
runs up the strut anyway. I found that the tiny (1/8") tubing often
used for 'standard' aircraft was too sensitive to angle changes for
<my> Rebel, so went to 5/16" ID tubing for the pitot tube. This helped
considerably ! My tube does extend forward, beyond the leading edge.

As Carmon Titus noted at the last meeting, with the Hoerner
wing tips and the McKenzie STOL kit on his Rebel, he can approach
at speeds so low that most airspeed indicators just flop to zero !
His solution was to use the GPS readouts - and approach at 35 MPH
in no wind conditions !!!! What an airplane !!!! :-)

I think you're on the right track with the idea of trying to
put about 50-100 lb. of baggage in the back when solo - that should
make it easier. Keep practicing - it does get easier !

HTH ! Good luck !!
....bobp

--------------------------------orig.-----------------------------------------
At 09:53 AM 5/21/00 -0400, you wrote:

Hi to all. Bill N. has my sympathy. I too can't three point land my Rebel. I
am slowly coming around to thinking that there is something with the
airplane( MY airplane not all Rebels!) that creates this situation. There
has to be, I have been making three point landings for a long time and with
the majority coming out just fine. As far as bobp.'s technique...you can't
argue with success, I suppose, but I am just speaking about the speed that
is indicated on a short final, what speeds you do around the pattern is
fairly irrelevant. I am using 60 mph on final and probably cross the fence
at that speed. If I try to three point, two things happen that are scary,
first the airplane floats(unacceptable on a 1300 foot strip!) for maybe a
distance of 200 to 300 feet of more. Next instead of settling like all my
other taildraggers, it does NOT settle. It stops flying and drops the
remaining inches, and it drops hard. I will try some baggage at different
weights and not at my strip, but somewhere with some more length. The
airspeed is also driving me to drink. In cruise it indicates 80-85 mph, but
the GPS indicates a no wind 105 plus mph. Of course! A low reading ASI! No,
because on take-off the airplane goes light at around 50 mph and starts to
really fly at 60 mph. That's in the ballpark. On final, in agreement with
bobp's comments, it won't fly below 60 mph without a hefty rate of sink.
Whatever bobp is doing airspeedwise and he can't be doing all that much
wrong having as many Rebelhours as he has, if he truly were crossing the
fence at 75 mph, he too would float forever. There has to be a point where
he reduces the speed on a very short final. He just won't tell us, how he
does that. Finally there must be a hundred variations among builders
regarding angles of attack, placement of pitots, other placement angles of
the wing and so on, so it is difficult comparing notes, you may be doing the
old apples and oranges comparison. I have two more comments, but I am doing
those in a seperate e.mail, they have nothing to do with landings. Geert
Frank

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I think it is interesting to read of the different techniques for landing
these little devils. Bob P. thanks so much for your help. I have been
trying your technique of using 70-75 mph and I am very encouraged. I find
that I can chop the trottle opposite the numbers and glide in and set it down
without adding power at all. The higher speed seems to give the flapperons
more contol, but bleeds off rapidly in the flair. Landing length is no
longer than with a lower approach speed but having to add varying amounts of
power to cushion the touchdown. This seems to work for me at this stage of
my "rebel education".

Thanks to Geert and the others for their comments, also.

Bill N, #376
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Geert;
I forgot to mention A/S. I was having the same problems with airspeed as you
mentioned. I have a pitot tube and static port right together. I improved
the results a lot by by grinding the weld holding them together and by
installing an O-ring immediately in front of the static hole. It
particularly improved the low-speed numbers.

Bill N
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Glad it helped, Bill !!! I certainly find this technique easier
and safer than jockeying the throttle, especially in turbulence or
wind shear.
....bobp

---------------------------------orig.-----------------------------------------
At 12:29 AM 5/24/00 EDT, you wrote:

I think it is interesting to read of the different techniques for landing
these little devils. Bob P. thanks so much for your help. I have been
trying your technique of using 70-75 mph and I am very encouraged. I find
that I can chop the trottle opposite the numbers and glide in and set it down
without adding power at all. The higher speed seems to give the flapperons
more contol, but bleeds off rapidly in the flair. Landing length is no
longer than with a lower approach speed but having to add varying amounts of
power to cushion the touchdown. This seems to work for me at this stage of
my "rebel education".

Thanks to Geert and the others for their comments, also.

Bill N, #376
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Hi Walter Klatt, that is some website you've got there. All those pictures.
Wow. As for your stock recommendations, did you forget to update or are you
still recommending high-tech stock? Reason I aks is that the guy that is
supposed to look after me, since tracking stocks/bonds bore me to death,
shoved 50% of my IRA into MSDW Information B fund very heavy into hightech
stocks MARCH 2000! Yup, I lost close to US $100 K before I "parked" on my
own initiative into the 6% money funds, I think this guy was going to take
me down all the way to zero. Brrrr. Changing the subject:
I think it is time that you stop blaming yourself for bad three point and
full stall landings in your Rebel, because of your lack of experience. I
have owned and flown taildraggers from DC-3's( which by the way is 99.9% of
the time wheel landed), Tiger Moths, Harvards, An-2's, all Piper and Cessna
taildraggers, Wilgas, Pilatus Porters etc. etc. BUT, I cannot
three-point-land my little Rebel. Would you like me to repeat that a few
times? Now I have pointed this out before. The three point landings vary
from a minor bounce to a high bounce. I have pointed out that the thing
floats when crossing the fence at 55 to 60 mph. I do not know what causes
this, it cannot be all me, not because I am so good, but nothing like this
was ever a problem with the above listed taildraggers. Now I have had the
most experienced Rebel pilot fly my machine and he made a few landings
getting the Rebel to New Hampshire. I am of course talking about bobp. He is
a great guy, but is so taken by the machine he sells, that he cannot step
back and be a little critical. That is a great attitude for a guy that sells
the Rebel, I repeat, but does not do me much good for evaluation purposes.
All the while I am still scratching my head about this strange aileron
control of my machine and that of the man in Southern Maine. bobp's
recommendation about that one: "go back to flaperons". However, the man in
Maine started out with flaperons and he and the other guys that flew his
machine went crazy. There is something going on here and we will have to
get to the bottom of it. I suspect, that by coincidence, your Rebel and
mine and I am sure a few others belonging to the "silent majority", have an
aerodynamical quirk or maybe a building-error in common and this time in the
longitudinal axis that creates this crazy landing problem. I would not even
know where to begin to look. We better find the problem, if not, you will
have to keep on repairing your machine and I can look forward to a similar
landing gear failure as you suffered. The factory? They either don't have a
clue either or are so fear struck by this liability factor, that they will
not give out any info. I am sorry to get on the soapbox over this matter,
but again, I think you should stop shouldering all the blame. We all do not
make a perfect landing each and every time (only exception, are you ready?
The 747!), but never being able to make a decent landing? Maybe, just maybe,
the cause lies elsewhere? Regards, Geert.

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Hi, Geert. No, I haven't updated my Stocks section for awhile, but now that I'm not
flying, maybe I'll have some time for that, too. Not to bore the rest of the list, but
let's just say that I'm a little more proficient at stock trading than flying my Rebel at
this point. I can email you privately if you want to talk more about this topic.

On the Rebel landings, I initially thought, too, there was something wrong with the
airplane, but I got to fly it long enough so that most of my landings were pretty good.
It just took a while to get that feel in the flare when it's ready to land (stall) and
keep pulling back that stick until it fully stalls. It does get that sudden sink when
it's ready to land, and if you're not ready for it, the mains will touch early, which
gives you that taildragger bounce. My mistake simply was not handling that bounce
properly.

C of G might have something to do with it, too. In my case, I have a Lycoming O320 with
my battery mounted forward of the firewall, so I know it is a little nose heavy, which
may make it harder to get that tail down early enough in a 3 pointer. Not sure. I did
notice, though, that it was always much easier to land with a passenger and lots of fuel,
which would move that C of G back a bit.

Also, I thought I heard somewhere, that the wing angle of incidence was changed 1 degree
on the Elite. Maybe that would make it easier to land, by lowering the tail more with the
same angle of attack. I could well be totally off base on this one.

About the flaperons, I think mine actually work very well and are very effective, unlike
what a lot of others have said about this subject. I did spend some time ensuring maximum
travel, and took out some of the play in the system. My stall speed and roll-out goes way
down with full flaps. They do get a little tricky in a crosswind, though, as it doesn't
take much to pick up a wing on you.

I definitely don't have your experience, Geert, but with some of the other planes I have
flown, I always had a bit of an adjustment period until I got the feel of it. But then
they always felt comfortable after that. With the Rebel, it is definitely more of a
challenge to land than any other airplane I've flown, but I think I was almost there with
it, too.

In any case, I'm itching to get back out there. Soon, I hope.

Geert Frank wrote:

Hi Walter Klatt, that is some website you've got there. All those pictures.
Wow. As for your stock recommendations, did you forget to update or are you
still recommending high-tech stock? Reason I aks is that the guy that is
supposed to look after me, since tracking stocks/bonds bore me to death,
shoved 50% of my IRA into MSDW Information B fund very heavy into hightech
stocks MARCH 2000! Yup, I lost close to US $100 K before I "parked" on my
own initiative into the 6% money funds, I think this guy was going to take
me down all the way to zero. Brrrr. Changing the subject:
I think it is time that you stop blaming yourself for bad three point and
full stall landings in your Rebel, because of your lack of experience. I
have owned and flown taildraggers from DC-3's( which by the way is 99.9% of
the time wheel landed), Tiger Moths, Harvards, An-2's, all Piper and Cessna
taildraggers, Wilgas, Pilatus Porters etc. etc. BUT, I cannot
three-point-land my little Rebel. Would you like me to repeat that a few
times? Now I have pointed this out before. The three point landings vary
from a minor bounce to a high bounce. I have pointed out that the thing
floats when crossing the fence at 55 to 60 mph. I do not know what causes
this, it cannot be all me, not because I am so good, but nothing like this
was ever a problem with the above listed taildraggers. Now I have had the
most experienced Rebel pilot fly my machine and he made a few landings
getting the Rebel to New Hampshire. I am of course talking about bobp. He is
a great guy, but is so taken by the machine he sells, that he cannot step
back and be a little critical. That is a great attitude for a guy that sells
the Rebel, I repeat, but does not do me much good for evaluation purposes.
All the while I am still scratching my head about this strange aileron
control of my machine and that of the man in Southern Maine. bobp's
recommendation about that one: "go back to flaperons". However, the man in
Maine started out with flaperons and he and the other guys that flew his
machine went crazy. There is something going on here and we will have to
get to the bottom of it. I suspect, that by coincidence, your Rebel and
mine and I am sure a few others belonging to the "silent majority", have an
aerodynamical quirk or maybe a building-error in common and this time in the
longitudinal axis that creates this crazy landing problem. I would not even
know where to begin to look. We better find the problem, if not, you will
have to keep on repairing your machine and I can look forward to a similar
landing gear failure as you suffered. The factory? They either don't have a
clue either or are so fear struck by this liability factor, that they will
not give out any info. I am sorry to get on the soapbox over this matter,
but again, I think you should stop shouldering all the blame. We all do not
make a perfect landing each and every time (only exception, are you ready?
The 747!), but never being able to make a decent landing? Maybe, just maybe,
the cause lies elsewhere? Regards, Geert.

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I appreciate the advice, but in my case I have no fear of stalls, and have done lots of
"slow flight" practice at altitude. I don't look at the ASI once I start the round-out.
Although I had difficulty with landing the Rebel initially, I thought I was definitely
getting better at it, and hadn't had a "bounce" for a long time before the accident. My
problem simply was not recovering from the bounce correctly this one time. The main
reason, I think, was that my bounces had become so slight that I didn't have to apply
power to complete the landing. That led to anticipating a small bounce, and not applying
power, and this time when it rose up higher unexpectedly, it stalled before I had a
chance to apply power. In future, I plan to always think it might bounce high, and be
ready to add power with any bounce rather than hesitate. Nothing wrong with too much
power, but definitely with not enough.

Another practice that has been suggested to me that I haven't done yet, but would like to
once I get flying again, is to extend a landing with power, and try to keep it from
landing right down the full length of the runway. Of course you want to pick a long
runway.

Anyway, I do appreciate the advice. I am looking forward to getting back at it again and
practice these things.

Legeorgen@cs.com wrote:

Walter,

When I learned to fly I was afraid of stalling my plane. It made me nervous
and my palms always got sweaty. I flew that way for 10 years until an
instructor taught me this, FWIW.

When you get your plane back take it up to altitude and fly it as slow as
possible without stalling it or loosing altitude. Fly it "on the edge" as
they say. Fly it like that for 30 minutes at a time and practice this often.
Experiment with different flap settings and notice the aileron effectiveness
at these different flap settings. If you practice this a lot, you will not
need to watch your ASI as close, for you will know when your plane doesn't
want to fly any more by how it feels and reacts to your control input. It
worked for me and I am much more proficient at controlling my landings, at
least in a plane I'm familiar with.

Bruce G 357R
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In the beginning I had a problem flaring the Rebel when I was learning to
fly.
This was mainly due to the position of the speed cowl being so low as
compared to a Cessna.
I was getting the nose into too high of an attitude and losing too much lift
on flare-out.

After that was conquered, I have no problem at all with my landings now.
Mind you, not all my landings are 3 pointers. I actually prefer landing on
the mains and waiting till the speed drops off before spinning that little
MAM tailwheel like mad.
The trick is to get the speed down and your flare-out 2" above the runway
boys.
Yeah, it's tricky, that why I prefer mains first. HA HA HA.
I have actually touched the tailwheel down first a few times.

My c of g is 10.45" back of the wheel line (empty)
I cut my firewall back 3" and have an O-320 on the front.

Rick Ford

Geert,

Don't take anything I say personal (my plane is not flying yet, I'm a 0

time

Rebel pilot) but you guys having a hard time flaring your airplanes sounds
like a C of G problem. Perhaps your plane is nose heavy or needs more up
elevator. Are you flying solo most of the time with half tanks? Have you
tried putting some weight behind the seat and then do some landings?

How about some of you other Rebel flyers, are you all having the same

problem

or is it just some planes and or some pilots?

Bruce G 357R

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Walter,

When I learned to fly I was afraid of stalling my plane. It made me nervous
and my palms always got sweaty. I flew that way for 10 years until an
instructor taught me this, FWIW.

When you get your plane back take it up to altitude and fly it as slow as
possible without stalling it or loosing altitude. Fly it "on the edge" as
they say. Fly it like that for 30 minutes at a time and practice this often.
Experiment with different flap settings and notice the aileron effectiveness
at these different flap settings. If you practice this a lot, you will not
need to watch your ASI as close, for you will know when your plane doesn't
want to fly any more by how it feels and reacts to your control input. It
worked for me and I am much more proficient at controlling my landings, at
least in a plane I'm familiar with.

Bruce G 357R
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Geert,

Don't take anything I say personal (my plane is not flying yet, I'm a 0 time
Rebel pilot) but you guys having a hard time flaring your airplanes sounds
like a C of G problem. Perhaps your plane is nose heavy or needs more up
elevator. Are you flying solo most of the time with half tanks? Have you
tried putting some weight behind the seat and then do some landings?

How about some of you other Rebel flyers, are you all having the same problem
or is it just some planes and or some pilots?

Bruce G 357R
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Ken or others,
Does addition of flaps reduce the tendency for tail to hit first in an
attempt to do a slow landing, e.g, 3 point, even with some power added as
well to limit sink rate?
-Ben

Finally got a couple of nice landings in this morning. Another 45 lb of
ballast probably helped more than I know. I never really felt that I had
much trouble getting the tail down but this is the first time it stayed
down after touching. The wind was also calm for a change which made it a
lot easier to keep from overcontrolling :)
thanks guys
Ken

Drew Dalgleish wrote:

At 04:51 PM 7/10/2006 EDT, you wrote:

Hi Ken,
Thought I pitch in a little to agree with Bobp. When I flew Ren Sagerts
for the first time I was very pleasantly surprised on how much easier it

was to

land than 97MR. His CoG on wheels was near 12" where 97MR is 10.5. So
strap the tool bag in back near the rear and enjoy!
Good luck,
Curt N97MR

Yeah I always make my best landings when my 90lb lab is in the back for a
ride.
Drew

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