The Murphy Builders Site

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:46 pm**

Wayne,
I am so glad to get your reply. You are right. I think I am giving myself
a case of "analysis paralysis". Sounds like no matter what I choose,
everything will be just fine. As you know, and I should know better, most
any plane has some single point failure area that could result in
catastrophic failure. Control cables or rods are a typical example. In
those areas of all planes, including certified designs up to airliner size,
the extra safety comes from a very large design margin and not redundant
parts. That appears to be the case here. Nothing like the voice of
experience to calm paranoid nerves! Never had the courage to look directly
at a Zenair. Are they allowed to be in full view during daylight? I think
perhaps they have a great strategy to deter theft, though. I better be
quiet because I have no doubt offended someone and I do hear they are a fine
performer (but ugly in one persons opinion!).

You are right about the metal surfaces taking no more (maybe less) time than
fabric. I was surprised how much time and expense was involved when I
helped Chuck Bailey do his fabric controls. Hmm, I wonder if I went to all
metal flaperons using the Elite parts if I would have to add additional
counterweights. Right now only the separate ailerons have counterweights.
Hooking the metal flaps on to make one metal flaperon as you describe might
need more balancing. Adding at the center hinge is a great location. Tell
me more.

Thanks again,
- Chuck Skorupa -
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: ps to my previous

Chuck, I think you are getting a little "over worried" about the aileron
hinges breaking. Haven't seen a damaged hinge bracket yet and I've seen

some

pretty mangled wings! Even a wing that was curved to about a 20 foot

radius,

with outboard flaperon to match, had perfect hinge brackets!!!

I have metal flaperons on my Rebel (.016 thickness, same as SR2500),

nicely

overlapped in the center to make one large surface and I wouldn't trade

them

for the world.(although I do find the fabric covered Rebel lighter on the
controls!!!) That 8 pound weight hanging from each set, at the center

hinge

bracket, that I keep knocking myself out on is another story!!!!! The
aluminum covering took the same time (within minutes) of fabric covering

the

flaperons, to the Polyspray stage, on others I have done. Uses one full 4

X

12 sheet, cut in 1' x 6' pieces.

If you are having trouble sleeping at night over this problem, just pull

out

a Zenair information package to read and it will put you to sleep!!!!

Blue skies,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Skorupa <Chas@wa.freei.net>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: ps to my previous

Great info, Geert. If I go to metal flaps, the flaps will have 3

supports:

one at each end and one in the middle of each flap. But the outboard end
of
each flap will still be sharing the support bracket with the inboard
support
for the aileron. I think that there is probably no way I can get away
without adding a counterbalance weight if I use metal flaps and fabric
ailerons and hook them together as flaperons. As I recall when visiting
the
factory, when they determined how much counterweight to use they took a
metal aileron and then added enough weight to achieve a neutral balance.
They then removed a certain per cent of the counterbalance weight (20%???

I

can't remember??). At the least, I should add that amount of
counterweight.
If I split the flaps and use fabric ailerons, no need for counterweights

on

the aileron or the metal flaps. To reiterate, my primary reason for

going

to metal flaps is to get some level of redundant support, although one
could
argue that if the outboard aileron bracket failed, I would be faced with
the
same potential problem since the fabric aileron has only 2 supports.
Basically, I hate the weight penalty associated with metal control

surfaces

and especially the counterweight. I feel really stupid radiusing every
0.020 bracket, shaving all edge distances, adding 1 inch lightening holes
to
save a zillionth of an ounce, only to add 5 lbs of counterweight dead
ballast! I keep coming back to the fact that the most efficient,
sensitive,
but least redundant, design appears to be the original Rebel fabric
flaperons. The next best is split metal flaps with 3 flap support

brackets

and fabric ailerons. The best for strength, safety, and longevity and

the

worst for weight and sensitive control is the separate all metal flaps

and

ailerons having 3 supports each and a counterweight like the Elite and

the

Super Rebel use.
I have played with a design that uses double brackets at each hanger of
higher strength material to get redundancy. Another possible remedy is

to

affix some sort of safety cable at each support bracket so if the bracket
parted company, the failure would not be catastrophic. There is just
something about the potential of a crack in that double-loaded, center
common flap/aileron bracket that seems like it could ruin your whole day.
At the very least, I would be thoroughly checking those brackets for

cracks

at every preflight and more extensively during each annual. Can someone
save me from my paranoia?

- Chuck Skorupa -
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geert Frank" <storchpilot@mediaone.net>
To: "murphy archives" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:27 PM
Subject: ps to my previous

PS I reread Charles Skorupa's question and I realized I had not
addressed
it. Here is my very humble opinion: go very careful here, mixing metal
flaps
and fabric ailerons, unless there is no large difference in weight this
may
put some crazy stress on that center hinge. This time I would stick

with

the
factory's opinion, if you can get them to give you one! After all I

don't

think they ran that mix themselves or did they? My gutfeeling says,
either
go all metal (AND BALANCE THE SURFACES) both ailerons and flaps or go

all

fabric. Ok? Geert

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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:47 pm**

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your following message has been delivered to the 153 members of
the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 21:19:48 on 10 May 2000.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can pick on Zenairs and almost get away with it. I live 7.2 miles from the
factory, my wife flys one (701), as does my father-in-law (he has a 601 and
a 701). Fun to play around home in (by yourself), but the 701 is ugly as
sin, It does get off the ground in a hurry, but that is were it's
usefullness stops. Cruise is about as slow as a turtle race! Storage
capacity nil! Comfort with two normal size adults Nil! Cost as much or more
to build than a Murphy. Does not hold it's value. (immediately worth half
after it's first flight) YADA YADA YADA! Of course that is why we are
building or flying Rebels!!!! I'm suprised my father-in-law isn't having a
towable trailer made to carry his gear for the Ramble!!!!! Just probably no
where strong enough to put the tow hook!!!

I don't recommend my center hinge counterbalances. It was the easiest thing
to do at the time and I had originally intended to hide it in the wing tip,
but never got around to it. They are great for knocking yourself out on
though. (ever ran into 8 lbs of lead as your are running to get the phone
and ducking under a wing!!) I have thought many times about just removing
them, going up flying and slapping the stick around for awhile! Just don't
have any friends with a parachute to lend me and not to keen on loosing an
aircraft with my kids initials for Registration markings.

If you want I could take a digital picture and send it to you if you want to
have all avenues in front of your eyes!

Blue skies,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Skorupa <Chas@wa.freei.net>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 8:37 PM
Subject: Hinge Brackets (was "ps to my previous")

Wayne,
I am so glad to get your reply. You are right. I think I am giving myself
a case of "analysis paralysis". Sounds like no matter what I choose,
everything will be just fine. As you know, and I should know better, most
any plane has some single point failure area that could result in
catastrophic failure. Control cables or rods are a typical example. In
those areas of all planes, including certified designs up to airliner size,
the extra safety comes from a very large design margin and not redundant
parts. That appears to be the case here. Nothing like the voice of
experience to calm paranoid nerves! Never had the courage to look directly
at a Zenair. Are they allowed to be in full view during daylight? I think
perhaps they have a great strategy to deter theft, though. I better be
quiet because I have no doubt offended someone and I do hear they are a

fine

performer (but ugly in one persons opinion!).

You are right about the metal surfaces taking no more (maybe less) time

than

fabric. I was surprised how much time and expense was involved when I
helped Chuck Bailey do his fabric controls. Hmm, I wonder if I went to all
metal flaperons using the Elite parts if I would have to add additional
counterweights. Right now only the separate ailerons have counterweights.
Hooking the metal flaps on to make one metal flaperon as you describe might
need more balancing. Adding at the center hinge is a great location. Tell
me more.

Thanks again,
- Chuck Skorupa -
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: ps to my previous

Chuck, I think you are getting a little "over worried" about the aileron
hinges breaking. Haven't seen a damaged hinge bracket yet and I've seen
some
pretty mangled wings! Even a wing that was curved to about a 20 foot
radius,
with outboard flaperon to match, had perfect hinge brackets!!!

I have metal flaperons on my Rebel (.016 thickness, same as SR2500),
nicely
overlapped in the center to make one large surface and I wouldn't trade
them
for the world.(although I do find the fabric covered Rebel lighter on the
controls!!!) That 8 pound weight hanging from each set, at the center
hinge
bracket, that I keep knocking myself out on is another story!!!!! The
aluminum covering took the same time (within minutes) of fabric covering
the
flaperons, to the Polyspray stage, on others I have done. Uses one full 4
X
12 sheet, cut in 1' x 6' pieces.

If you are having trouble sleeping at night over this problem, just pull
out
a Zenair information package to read and it will put you to sleep!!!!

Blue skies,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Skorupa <Chas@wa.freei.net>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: ps to my previous

Great info, Geert. If I go to metal flaps, the flaps will have 3
supports:
one at each end and one in the middle of each flap. But the outboard

end

of
each flap will still be sharing the support bracket with the inboard
support
for the aileron. I think that there is probably no way I can get away
without adding a counterbalance weight if I use metal flaps and fabric
ailerons and hook them together as flaperons. As I recall when visiting
the
factory, when they determined how much counterweight to use they took a
metal aileron and then added enough weight to achieve a neutral balance.
They then removed a certain per cent of the counterbalance weight

(20%???

I
can't remember??). At the least, I should add that amount of
counterweight.
If I split the flaps and use fabric ailerons, no need for counterweights
on
the aileron or the metal flaps. To reiterate, my primary reason for
going
to metal flaps is to get some level of redundant support, although one
could
argue that if the outboard aileron bracket failed, I would be faced with
the
same potential problem since the fabric aileron has only 2 supports.
Basically, I hate the weight penalty associated with metal control
surfaces
and especially the counterweight. I feel really stupid radiusing every
0.020 bracket, shaving all edge distances, adding 1 inch lightening

holes

to
save a zillionth of an ounce, only to add 5 lbs of counterweight dead
ballast! I keep coming back to the fact that the most efficient,
sensitive,
but least redundant, design appears to be the original Rebel fabric
flaperons. The next best is split metal flaps with 3 flap support
brackets
and fabric ailerons. The best for strength, safety, and longevity and
the
worst for weight and sensitive control is the separate all metal flaps
and
ailerons having 3 supports each and a counterweight like the Elite and
the
Super Rebel use.
I have played with a design that uses double brackets at each hanger of
higher strength material to get redundancy. Another possible remedy is
to
affix some sort of safety cable at each support bracket so if the

bracket

parted company, the failure would not be catastrophic. There is just
something about the potential of a crack in that double-loaded, center
common flap/aileron bracket that seems like it could ruin your whole

day.

At the very least, I would be thoroughly checking those brackets for
cracks
at every preflight and more extensively during each annual. Can someone
save me from my paranoia?

- Chuck Skorupa -
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geert Frank" <storchpilot@mediaone.net>
To: "murphy archives" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:27 PM
Subject: ps to my previous

addressed
flaps

this

may
with
the
don't
either
all
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------

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--------*
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---------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------

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*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

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--------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

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--------*

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------*

The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------*

*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*

-----------------------------------------------------------------
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-----------------------------------------------------------------

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:47 pm**

Wayne,
Just for kicks I went to the Zenair site
http://www.zenithair.com/kit-data/ht.html. Might be worth a look. He has
some pretty good info there about Avex rivets and design considerations for
a STOL airplane. I see what you mean about the Zenair hinges. There are
NONE! He just flexes the skin. No gap, no hinge! Pretty slick idea.
- Chuck Skorupa -
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: Hinge Brackets (was "ps to my previous")

I can pick on Zenairs and almost get away with it. I live 7.2 miles from

the

factory, my wife flys one (701), as does my father-in-law (he has a 601

and

a 701). Fun to play around home in (by yourself), but the 701 is ugly as
sin, It does get off the ground in a hurry, but that is were it's
usefullness stops. Cruise is about as slow as a turtle race! Storage
capacity nil! Comfort with two normal size adults Nil! Cost as much or

more

to build than a Murphy. Does not hold it's value. (immediately worth half
after it's first flight) YADA YADA YADA! Of course that is why we are
building or flying Rebels!!!! I'm suprised my father-in-law isn't having a
towable trailer made to carry his gear for the Ramble!!!!! Just probably

no

where strong enough to put the tow hook!!!

I don't recommend my center hinge counterbalances. It was the easiest

thing

to do at the time and I had originally intended to hide it in the wing

tip,

but never got around to it. They are great for knocking yourself out on
though. (ever ran into 8 lbs of lead as your are running to get the phone
and ducking under a wing!!) I have thought many times about just removing
them, going up flying and slapping the stick around for awhile! Just don't
have any friends with a parachute to lend me and not to keen on loosing an
aircraft with my kids initials for Registration markings.

If you want I could take a digital picture and send it to you if you want

to

have all avenues in front of your eyes!

Blue skies,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Skorupa <Chas@wa.freei.net>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 8:37 PM
Subject: Hinge Brackets (was "ps to my previous")

Wayne,
I am so glad to get your reply. You are right. I think I am giving

myself

a case of "analysis paralysis". Sounds like no matter what I choose,
everything will be just fine. As you know, and I should know better,

most

any plane has some single point failure area that could result in
catastrophic failure. Control cables or rods are a typical example. In
those areas of all planes, including certified designs up to airliner

size,

the extra safety comes from a very large design margin and not redundant
parts. That appears to be the case here. Nothing like the voice of
experience to calm paranoid nerves! Never had the courage to look

directly

at a Zenair. Are they allowed to be in full view during daylight? I

think

perhaps they have a great strategy to deter theft, though. I better be
quiet because I have no doubt offended someone and I do hear they are a
fine
performer (but ugly in one persons opinion!).

You are right about the metal surfaces taking no more (maybe less) time
than
fabric. I was surprised how much time and expense was involved when I
helped Chuck Bailey do his fabric controls. Hmm, I wonder if I went to

all

metal flaperons using the Elite parts if I would have to add additional
counterweights. Right now only the separate ailerons have

counterweights.

Hooking the metal flaps on to make one metal flaperon as you describe

might

need more balancing. Adding at the center hinge is a great location.

Tell

me more.

Thanks again,
- Chuck Skorupa -
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: ps to my previous

Chuck, I think you are getting a little "over worried" about the

aileron

hinges breaking. Haven't seen a damaged hinge bracket yet and I've seen
some
pretty mangled wings! Even a wing that was curved to about a 20 foot
radius,
with outboard flaperon to match, had perfect hinge brackets!!!

I have metal flaperons on my Rebel (.016 thickness, same as SR2500),
nicely
overlapped in the center to make one large surface and I wouldn't trade
them
for the world.(although I do find the fabric covered Rebel lighter on

the

controls!!!) That 8 pound weight hanging from each set, at the center
hinge
bracket, that I keep knocking myself out on is another story!!!!! The
aluminum covering took the same time (within minutes) of fabric

covering

the
flaperons, to the Polyspray stage, on others I have done. Uses one full

4

X
12 sheet, cut in 1' x 6' pieces.

If you are having trouble sleeping at night over this problem, just

pull

out
a Zenair information package to read and it will put you to sleep!!!!

Blue skies,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Skorupa <Chas@wa.freei.net>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: ps to my previous

supports:
end
of support

visiting

the

a

balance.

(20%???
I
counterweight.

counterweights

on
going
could

with

the
surfaces

every

holes
to sensitive,
brackets
the
and
the

of

is

to
bracket
day.
cracks

someone

addressed

metal

this
with
don't
either

go

all

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
-

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
-

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
---------*

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
---------*

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
--------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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--------*

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------*

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*

The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*

*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*

-----------------------------------------------------------------
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-----------------------------------------------------------------

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:47 pm**

He DOES use a C/Sunk rivet w/o dimpling or countersinking. Just as you say,
he forms the head with a special convex head die to form a head that is very
low profile. See http://www.zenithair.com/kit-data/ht-87-1.html .

- Chuck -
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 6:32 PM
Subject: Re: Hinge Brackets (was "ps to my previous")

Yes it is a pretty slick idea, until you damage an aileron and have to
DE-drill half the trailing edge of the wing to get it off to work on it!
Also Heinz (Zenair) uses a different style avex rivet than we are on the
Rebel. His almost look like C/sunk rivets before installing and you use a
forming head on the pneumatic puller to shape the head when it pulls the
rivet tight.

Wayne

-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Skorupa <Chas@wa.freei.net>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Thursday, May 11, 2000 9:20 PM
Subject: Re: Hinge Brackets (was "ps to my previous")

Wayne,
Just for kicks I went to the Zenair site
http://www.zenithair.com/kit-data/ht.html. Might be worth a look. He

has

some pretty good info there about Avex rivets and design considerations

for

a STOL airplane. I see what you mean about the Zenair hinges. There are
NONE! He just flexes the skin. No gap, no hinge! Pretty slick idea.
- Chuck Skorupa -
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: Hinge Brackets (was "ps to my previous")

I can pick on Zenairs and almost get away with it. I live 7.2 miles

from

the
factory, my wife flys one (701), as does my father-in-law (he has a 601
and
a 701). Fun to play around home in (by yourself), but the 701 is ugly

as

sin, It does get off the ground in a hurry, but that is were it's
usefullness stops. Cruise is about as slow as a turtle race! Storage
capacity nil! Comfort with two normal size adults Nil! Cost as much or
more
to build than a Murphy. Does not hold it's value. (immediately worth

half

after it's first flight) YADA YADA YADA! Of course that is why we are
building or flying Rebels!!!! I'm suprised my father-in-law isn't

having

a
towable trailer made to carry his gear for the Ramble!!!!! Just

probably

no
where strong enough to put the tow hook!!!

I don't recommend my center hinge counterbalances. It was the easiest
thing
to do at the time and I had originally intended to hide it in the wing
tip,
but never got around to it. They are great for knocking yourself out on
though. (ever ran into 8 lbs of lead as your are running to get the

phone

and ducking under a wing!!) I have thought many times about just

removing

them, going up flying and slapping the stick around for awhile! Just
don't
have any friends with a parachute to lend me and not to keen on loosing
an
aircraft with my kids initials for Registration markings.

If you want I could take a digital picture and send it to you if you

want

to
have all avenues in front of your eyes!

Blue skies,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Skorupa <Chas@wa.freei.net>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 8:37 PM
Subject: Hinge Brackets (was "ps to my previous")

myself
most

In

size,

redundant

directly
think

be

a

fine

time

than

to

all

additional

counterweights.
might
Tell
aileron
seen
trade

on

the

center

The

covering
full
4
pull

sleep!!!!

outboard

end

inboard

away
fabric
visiting

took

a
balance.
(20%???
counterweights

for

one
with

supports.

every
holes

dead

and
flaps
and

hanger

of

remedy

is
bracket

just

center

whole

day.

for

someone
metal

weight

this

stick

I

says,

or

go

*------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
-

*------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:47 pm**

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Your following message has been delivered to the 154 members of
the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 21:37:07 on 11 May 2000.
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Yes it is a pretty slick idea, until you damage an aileron and have to
DE-drill half the trailing edge of the wing to get it off to work on it!
Also Heinz (Zenair) uses a different style avex rivet than we are on the
Rebel. His almost look like C/sunk rivets before installing and you use a
forming head on the pneumatic puller to shape the head when it pulls the
rivet tight.

Wayne

-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Skorupa <Chas@wa.freei.net>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Thursday, May 11, 2000 9:20 PM
Subject: Re: Hinge Brackets (was "ps to my previous")

Wayne,
Just for kicks I went to the Zenair site
http://www.zenithair.com/kit-data/ht.html. Might be worth a look. He has
some pretty good info there about Avex rivets and design considerations for
a STOL airplane. I see what you mean about the Zenair hinges. There are
NONE! He just flexes the skin. No gap, no hinge! Pretty slick idea.
- Chuck Skorupa -
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: Hinge Brackets (was "ps to my previous")

I can pick on Zenairs and almost get away with it. I live 7.2 miles from
the
factory, my wife flys one (701), as does my father-in-law (he has a 601
and
a 701). Fun to play around home in (by yourself), but the 701 is ugly as
sin, It does get off the ground in a hurry, but that is were it's
usefullness stops. Cruise is about as slow as a turtle race! Storage
capacity nil! Comfort with two normal size adults Nil! Cost as much or
more
to build than a Murphy. Does not hold it's value. (immediately worth half
after it's first flight) YADA YADA YADA! Of course that is why we are
building or flying Rebels!!!! I'm suprised my father-in-law isn't having

a

towable trailer made to carry his gear for the Ramble!!!!! Just probably
no
where strong enough to put the tow hook!!!

I don't recommend my center hinge counterbalances. It was the easiest
thing
to do at the time and I had originally intended to hide it in the wing
tip,
but never got around to it. They are great for knocking yourself out on
though. (ever ran into 8 lbs of lead as your are running to get the phone
and ducking under a wing!!) I have thought many times about just removing
them, going up flying and slapping the stick around for awhile! Just

don't

have any friends with a parachute to lend me and not to keen on loosing

an

aircraft with my kids initials for Registration markings.

If you want I could take a digital picture and send it to you if you want
to
have all avenues in front of your eyes!

Blue skies,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Skorupa <Chas@wa.freei.net>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 8:37 PM
Subject: Hinge Brackets (was "ps to my previous")

Wayne,
I am so glad to get your reply. You are right. I think I am giving
myself
a case of "analysis paralysis". Sounds like no matter what I choose,
everything will be just fine. As you know, and I should know better,
most
any plane has some single point failure area that could result in
catastrophic failure. Control cables or rods are a typical example. In
those areas of all planes, including certified designs up to airliner
size,
the extra safety comes from a very large design margin and not redundant
parts. That appears to be the case here. Nothing like the voice of
experience to calm paranoid nerves! Never had the courage to look
directly
at a Zenair. Are they allowed to be in full view during daylight? I
think
perhaps they have a great strategy to deter theft, though. I better be
quiet because I have no doubt offended someone and I do hear they are a
fine
performer (but ugly in one persons opinion!).

You are right about the metal surfaces taking no more (maybe less) time
than
fabric. I was surprised how much time and expense was involved when I
helped Chuck Bailey do his fabric controls. Hmm, I wonder if I went to
all
metal flaperons using the Elite parts if I would have to add additional
counterweights. Right now only the separate ailerons have
counterweights.
Hooking the metal flaps on to make one metal flaperon as you describe
might
need more balancing. Adding at the center hinge is a great location.
Tell
me more.

Thanks again,
- Chuck Skorupa -
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: ps to my previous

aileron

seen

some radius, nicely

trade

them
the
hinge
covering
the

full

4
X
pull
out supports:
end

away

fabric

visiting
a
balance.
(20%???
I
counterweights
on going

one

with
surfaces
every
holes
brackets

and

the

flaps

and

and

the
of
is
to
bracket

center

day.
cracks
someone
metal
this
with don't
go
all

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The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
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*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*

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