Flaps, Gaps and Brackets (was gobbledegook)

[Charles Skorupa]

1. Reflex Position - Are you sure about the loss of negative flaperons, aka
reflex position, with split flaps? I was told by the factory that one of
the improvements to the fuselage design when the Elite was designed was to
change the fuselage contour so that it would be aligned with the flaps (or
flaperons) when they were in the reflex position. I believe that is 5
degrees up. If you are used to seeing the Rebel flaperons higher than the
fuselage when in the highest, reflex position and then see the Elite even
with the fuselage in the highest position, it doesn't necessarily mean the
control surfaces are not in the reflex position. Need to check with the
contour of the wing to tell (or ask Murphy). Since both the split controls
and the flaperons still use the same mixer arrangement to control the
flaps/flaperons/ailerons and the up position can be rigged anywhere, I don't
see there is any reason the reflex position wouldn't exist for both the
split flap/ailerons or the flaperons. I believe the uppermost flap position
on the Elite is 5 degrees reflex. Also, when I operated the controls of the
factory taildragger Elite, both the flaps and the ailerons changed position
when the flaps were operated. I can't recall if the ailerons moved down as
far as the flaps in all positions, but they did assume a different, more
downward, or upward, position in unison with the flaps as the flap handle
was moved through its positions. It seems at some point they must diverge
because I believe you can have more flap extension with the metal, 3 support
flaps, but you probably wouldn't want the ailerons to go down that far.
Guess I could check my manual, but then I would miss the opportunity to look
stupid in public.

2. Flaperon Brackets - Should the lack of redundant support for the control
surfaces be a concern? The Rebel shares the center hanger bracket with both
the flap and the aileron. If that bracket failed, even on a flaperon
airplane, what is to prevent a simultaneous loss of support of the flap and
aileron at one end? Unfortunately, it is not a simple matter of adding a
mid span support to the flap and aileron, as the Elite does, since this will
be structurally sound only for the metal covered control surfaces, according
to Darrel Murphy.

3. Gap Problem - I think the early Elite "problem" was due to a combination
of air flow things including a redesigned empennage, fuselage and the fact
that the metal flaps could be extended further which may have caused some
new and wondrous airflow across the tail. I believe that situation,
experienced only during prototype testing in the first few flights of the
first Elite, was solved by a design tweaking of the horizontal stabilizer.
I remember visiting the factory several years earlier when they first rigged
a Rebel with split flap and aileron as a precursor to the current design.
To my knowledge, they did not experience any problems associated with a gap
and still had a reflex position available.

4. Cessna??? - I think if the "Beaver did it, it must be good!" Does the
Beaver, the premier bush plane and floatplane, granddaddy of the Rebel, use
split flaps and ailerons or flaperons? Guess I'll have to mosey down to
Kenmore Air and find out unless someone here can enlighten me.

5. Mixed Metal/Fabric Control Surfaces - Help!! - Right now I am in a
quandary. I prefer the fabric control surfaces in the flaperon
configuration, but I confess that I worry about that common aileron/flap
center bracket design. I can build it either way since I am building an
Elite, but upgraded from a Rebel. Prior to getting the higher strength
Elite wings, I had already completed the fabric ailerons and flaps. So I
have both the metal and the fabric control surfaces and all the parts. My
current thought is a compromise where I will go with a metal flap having 3
supports and a fabric aileron having 2 supports. I would like to couple
them together as flaperons, but I am uncertain of any flutter consequences.
If I split the metal flaps and fabric ailerons, I can use a greater flap
extension position because of the stronger flaps and supports, but I miss
out on the benefits of flaperons for low speed control. Floats are in the
future, but I can change then if necessary. Any wisdom out there to help me
past this decision?

Sorry for the long post. Probably should have broken it into several
emails. I went back and added numbers and titles so anyone could
selectively respond if they desired and future readers could find the
subject in the archive files. This subject is of particular concern to me
and I greatly appreciate the thoughts and experience that this forum
contains.

Thanks,
Chuck Skorupa
Elite S/N 500 (taildragger config)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, May 08, 2000 8:35 PM
Subject: RE: gobbledegook

Hi Brian !

I doubt you'll hear ANY good stories about split flaps & ailerons
- the factory still only allows 6, 12, and 18 degrees of flap, even if
they are separate, because there are only 2 flap hanger brackets.

This means that you get half the flap, and half the aileron you
would normally get as flapperons, plus - you lose the advantage of
negative flapperon to increase cruise and stability ! Not a desirable
situation !!! Several float pilots have commented that the flapperon
really improves takeoff & landing performance on the water, as you
are changing the whole airfoil, instead of having a gap which generates
considerable turbulence... (remember the early Elite problem !)

But, some folks think that "Cessna did it, so it must be good" !! ;-)

.....bobp

----------------------------------orig.---------------------------------
At 12:26 AM 5/4/00 -0400, you wrote:

Hi There

I am not convinced at all that splitting the flaps is a good idea. As

Geert

mentions, you will defintely lose aileron effectiveness. On strong
crosswind landings, I find that you want all of the available aileron

input

to keep it tracking down the centre & there are still times that I don't
have enough. I know that I am FAR from a great pilot, but my
feeling/opinion is that you want all the aileron input which the 12'
aileron/flapperon can give you.

Also, I can't really imagine what great benefit the split flap can give

you

as the stall is low, and I find that I prefer half flap on landing vs.

full.

Maybe someone can comment & tell us of their positive experiences with

split

flaps.

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: Geert Frank [mailto:storchpilot@mediaone.net]
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2000 10:11 AM
To: murphy archives
Cc: Jan Eggenfellner
Subject: gobbledegook


Hi everybody. I must have the same machine as bobp, the May 1 summation

came

through almost all HTML i.e. not plain text. Ian, sorry I too wanted to

get

down to 8 instead of 12 bungee rings...(the 400 lbs rings), primarily to
soften up those landings a little. It does not work, the gear is now much
too "soft". Dave B. who had two landing gear failures also strongly
recommended to use all 12 loops. Next, for the person that is trying

to

lift an UTVA tail (?, Wayne hisself?) the Rebel I don't think is that

heavy

back there, but I made up a simple sling using a horse saddle belly
strap(cinge) which is fleece covered and has two very sturdy rings, $ 20.

I

used a 24" piece of pipe, drilled three holes into same (use drill press
only, handheld drill will put you in mental home!) and stuck one 3/16
eyebolt upwards in the center and two downward at the ends.
Two pieces of 3/16" cable, one piece for each side (24" for the Rebel,
including loops). Attach three of the cable ends directly to the down
eyebolts and rings in cinge, using a shackle and two cable clamps at each
point, one end attach it to one of those quick disconnect snaps( heavy

duty

please) and you can lift the tail by your own self. I use one of those
engine mini cranes, hook of course through the top eye. Or you could use

a

simple come-along attached to the rafters providing they are strong

enough

of course. I place my lift strap just forward of the lift handles I have
installed. Over the rivetline of course. Ok? Next a few questions: is
there a list somewhere of what actually happened to the over 600 Rebel

kits

sold? How many projects were abandoned? How many flying? How many

completed

but not flying? Why only 132 (correct?) people active on this site? I

only

see about six to eight names appear myself, but I'll take someone's word

for

that 132 figure. To use the cliche: Where IS everybody??? I have
temporarily abandoned the upgrade from my 2.2 liter Subaru Legacy to the

2.5

liter Eggenfellner one. It almost makes use of an electric c.s. prop
mandatory and there goes another $ 4000. My D I Y junkyard 2.2 liter is

also

running fine with it's 3-bladed Warpdrive. I found the summation of the
Subaru conversions by Ken K. quite interesting and actually pretty fair.

I

do agree on the resale value, but I also heard of some guys buying a

Rebel

precisely because it had a Subaru engine. Go figure! One thing seems to

be

never mentioned: you buy a used many times overhauled Lycoming, you are
sitting behind some old stuff, going back to what year? 1968, 1972,

older?

My engine was not "born" until 1990. Eggenfellner seems to be using

almost

all1999 or 2000 engines. That gives me a lot more confidence.
Finally I still have the seperate flaps on my Rebel. Can I hear from some

of

the experienced guys, to yes or no convert back to flaperons? I am not

all

that happy with the aileron effectiveness, so I am considering. Many

thanks,

Geert

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[Charles Skorupa]

Bob,
Thanks for the valuable insight. FYI, in my unique situation, I have
everything it takes to build either a Rebel wing or an Elite wing. I bought
the very first Elite kit (S/N #500) after starting a Rebel. The wing that
I have is the Rebel wing, upgraded to the Elite higher 1800 lb gross weight
capability with the addition of 0.032 leading edge skin and additional main
spar reinforcement at the strut area. I have not added the spar extensions,
etc or the other aileron brackets necessary for the Elite metal control
surfaces and Elite wingtips. So what I now have is a very strong Rebel
wing. I can use the standard Rebel wingtips or better yet, the Hornier
tips. The factory said it is OK to go with the same configuration as the
Rebel using fabric control surfaces and flaperons. By doing this it sounds
like I can get the best of the Elite stronger wing structure and higher
gross weight as well as the full length, lighter, and more controllable
Rebel flaperon system. I hadn't known about the extra bonus in eliminating
the gap and getting additional reflex. Best part is: my Rebel ailerons and
flaps are already complete and ready to cover! No need to scrap them now to
build the Elite metal ones. Also, I won't have to tear my completed wing
apart to add 2 more hanger brackets. The down side is I paid for a bunch of
parts I will not use. Oh well. It's only money! The facts, data and
opinions you and Wayne O'Shea have provided are helping greatly to corral
the considerations that seem to be self-defining the decision for me.
Thanks for putting up with my public trade study of control alternatives.
Hmmm, I didn't consider a RebElite biplane configuration yet.......Nah..

- Chuck Skorupa -
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: Flaps, Gaps and Brackets (was gobbledegook)

czesc Charles !

1. You are correct. The Elite was designed so that "neutral" flap or
'flaps up' is actually 5 degrees negative - this improves the cruise,
but you must remember to put some flap down if you want to get out of
a small field quickly.

The ailerons do droop with the flaps, as on the Super - the ratio
of droop is about 1/2, but can be adjusted ...

The reason I said you lost the advantages of negative flapperon is
that on the Elite, full up is the ONLY position where the flaps & ailerons
are aligned, smoothly changing the whole airfoil. Several builders have
found that Rebels with more than 115 HP can benefit from an extra notch
of negative flapperon - i.e. 12 degrees instead of the standard - 6

degrees.

This gives an extra 2-3 mph cruise, and improves stability in turbulence.
This is not possible on the Elite.

2. Certainly, an extra support bracket does add to the strength, but I
wouldn't lose any sleep worrying about the failure of those brackets !!
They're extrusions, not castings, and are extremely over requirements
- I've seen them with cables through them fastened to 2x6's LOADED
with sandbags ! They are likely stronger than the structure they're
attached to !

3. There <IS> a huge, powerful vortex generated by the gap between the
separate flap & aileron on the Elite. The tail was modified to reduce the
effect of the vortex on the elevator horns - but the vortex is still

there,

producing drag ! Even on the Rebel, builders should at least put a
cap strip of aluminum on top of the gap to reduce drag and improve
control effectiveness.

4. I believe the Beaver also has ailerons that droop some percentage
of the flap deflection. (30% ??)

5. Having chosen the Elite wing, I strongly believe you should stick with
it completely, AS DESIGNED ! You can't use the Rebel ailerons, as they
don't have the huge spades added to the metal Elite ailerons - this
would cause problems with the wing tips, balance, flutter ....

I think your best plan is to use the metal flaps AND ailerons,
with the spades & balance weights, AS DESIGNED, and live with the
limitations/differences of the Elite. Tieing the metal flaps and ailerons
together on the Elite wing, to make a flapperon, is something I doubt
the factory ever envisioned, and could cause balance and flutter problems,
not to mention higher control forces and loads. The bellcranks were

designed

for the smaller ailerons, and likely should be considerably longer to
handle full span flapperon loads.....

If you DO decide to try something different -

PLEASE CONTACT THE FACTORY BEFORE PROCEEDING !!!

I'm sure you wouldn't do anything potentially dangerous without
investigating thoroughly, but there might be someone out there tempted
to try something, based on this discussion ....

Sorry to add to an already-long post, but this is an important
topic, and it is best kept together in one place.

....bobp

-------------------------------orig.--------------------------------------

-----

At 01:25 AM 5/9/00 -0700, you wrote:

1. Reflex Position - Are you sure about the loss of negative flaperons,

aka

reflex position, with split flaps? I was told by the factory that one of
the improvements to the fuselage design when the Elite was designed was

to

change the fuselage contour so that it would be aligned with the flaps

(or

flaperons) when they were in the reflex position. I believe that is 5
degrees up. If you are used to seeing the Rebel flaperons higher than

the

fuselage when in the highest, reflex position and then see the Elite even
with the fuselage in the highest position, it doesn't necessarily mean

the

control surfaces are not in the reflex position. Need to check with the
contour of the wing to tell (or ask Murphy). Since both the split

controls

and the flaperons still use the same mixer arrangement to control the
flaps/flaperons/ailerons and the up position can be rigged anywhere, I

don't

see there is any reason the reflex position wouldn't exist for both the
split flap/ailerons or the flaperons. I believe the uppermost flap

position

on the Elite is 5 degrees reflex. Also, when I operated the controls of

the

factory taildragger Elite, both the flaps and the ailerons changed

position

when the flaps were operated. I can't recall if the ailerons moved down

as

far as the flaps in all positions, but they did assume a different, more
downward, or upward, position in unison with the flaps as the flap handle
was moved through its positions. It seems at some point they must

diverge

because I believe you can have more flap extension with the metal, 3

support

flaps, but you probably wouldn't want the ailerons to go down that far.
Guess I could check my manual, but then I would miss the opportunity to

look

stupid in public.

2. Flaperon Brackets - Should the lack of redundant support for the

control

surfaces be a concern? The Rebel shares the center hanger bracket with

both

the flap and the aileron. If that bracket failed, even on a flaperon
airplane, what is to prevent a simultaneous loss of support of the flap

and

aileron at one end? Unfortunately, it is not a simple matter of adding a
mid span support to the flap and aileron, as the Elite does, since this

will

be structurally sound only for the metal covered control surfaces,

according

to Darrel Murphy.

3. Gap Problem - I think the early Elite "problem" was due to a

combination

of air flow things including a redesigned empennage, fuselage and the

fact

that the metal flaps could be extended further which may have caused some
new and wondrous airflow across the tail. I believe that situation,
experienced only during prototype testing in the first few flights of the
first Elite, was solved by a design tweaking of the horizontal

stabilizer.

I remember visiting the factory several years earlier when they first

rigged

a Rebel with split flap and aileron as a precursor to the current design.
To my knowledge, they did not experience any problems associated with a

gap

and still had a reflex position available.

4. Cessna??? - I think if the "Beaver did it, it must be good!" Does

the

Beaver, the premier bush plane and floatplane, granddaddy of the Rebel,

use

split flaps and ailerons or flaperons? Guess I'll have to mosey down to
Kenmore Air and find out unless someone here can enlighten me.

5. Mixed Metal/Fabric Control Surfaces - Help!! - Right now I am in a
quandary. I prefer the fabric control surfaces in the flaperon
configuration, but I confess that I worry about that common aileron/flap
center bracket design. I can build it either way since I am building an
Elite, but upgraded from a Rebel. Prior to getting the higher strength
Elite wings, I had already completed the fabric ailerons and flaps. So

I

have both the metal and the fabric control surfaces and all the parts.

My

current thought is a compromise where I will go with a metal flap having

3

supports and a fabric aileron having 2 supports. I would like to couple
them together as flaperons, but I am uncertain of any flutter

consequences.

If I split the metal flaps and fabric ailerons, I can use a greater flap
extension position because of the stronger flaps and supports, but I miss
out on the benefits of flaperons for low speed control. Floats are in

the

future, but I can change then if necessary. Any wisdom out there to help

me

past this decision?

Sorry for the long post. Probably should have broken it into several
emails. I went back and added numbers and titles so anyone could
selectively respond if they desired and future readers could find the
subject in the archive files. This subject is of particular concern to

me

and I greatly appreciate the thoughts and experience that this forum
contains.

Thanks,
Chuck Skorupa
Elite S/N 500 (taildragger config)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, May 08, 2000 8:35 PM
Subject: RE: gobbledegook

Hi Brian !

I doubt you'll hear ANY good stories about split flaps &

ailerons

- the factory still only allows 6, 12, and 18 degrees of flap, even if
they are separate, because there are only 2 flap hanger brackets.

This means that you get half the flap, and half the aileron you
would normally get as flapperons, plus - you lose the advantage of
negative flapperon to increase cruise and stability ! Not a desirable
situation !!! Several float pilots have commented that the flapperon
really improves takeoff & landing performance on the water, as you
are changing the whole airfoil, instead of having a gap which generates
considerable turbulence... (remember the early Elite problem !)

But, some folks think that "Cessna did it, so it must be good" !!

;-)

.....bobp

----------------------------------orig.---------------------------------

At 12:26 AM 5/4/00 -0400, you wrote:

Geert

input

don't

give

you

full.

split

summation

came

to

get

to

much

trying

to

heavy

20.

I

press

each

duty

use

a

enough

have

is

kits

completed

only

word

for

the

2.5

is

also

the

fair.

I

Rebel

to

be

are

older?

almost

some

of

all

thanks,

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[Charles Skorupa]

Bob,
Thanks for the valuable insight. FYI, in my unique situation, I have
everything it takes to build either a Rebel wing or an Elite wing. I bought
the very first Elite kit (S/N #500) after starting a Rebel. The wing that
I have is the Rebel wing, upgraded to the Elite higher 1800 lb gross weight
capability with the addition of 0.032 leading edge skin and additional main
spar reinforcement at the strut area. I have not added the spar extensions,
etc or the other aileron brackets necessary for the Elite metal control
surfaces and Elite wingtips. So what I now have is a very strong Rebel
wing. I can use the standard Rebel wingtips or better yet, the Hornier
tips. The factory said it is OK to go with the same configuration as the
Rebel using fabric control surfaces and flaperons. By doing this it sounds
like I can get the best of the Elite stronger wing structure and higher
gross weight as well as the full length, lighter, and more controllable
Rebel flaperon system. I hadn't known about the extra bonus in eliminating
the gap and getting additional reflex. Best part is: my Rebel ailerons and
flaps are already complete and ready to cover! No need to scrap them now to
build the Elite metal ones. Also, I won't have to tear my completed wing
apart to add 2 more hanger brackets. The down side is I paid for a bunch of
parts I will not use. Oh well. It's only money! The facts, data and
opinions you and Wayne O'Shea have provided are helping greatly to corral
the considerations that seem to be self-defining the decision for me.
Thanks for putting up with my public trade study of control alternatives.
Hmmm, I didn't consider a RebElite biplane configuration yet.......Nah..

- Chuck Skorupa -
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: Flaps, Gaps and Brackets (was gobbledegook)

czesc Charles !

1. You are correct. The Elite was designed so that "neutral" flap or
'flaps up' is actually 5 degrees negative - this improves the cruise,
but you must remember to put some flap down if you want to get out of
a small field quickly.

The ailerons do droop with the flaps, as on the Super - the ratio
of droop is about 1/2, but can be adjusted ...

The reason I said you lost the advantages of negative flapperon is
that on the Elite, full up is the ONLY position where the flaps & ailerons
are aligned, smoothly changing the whole airfoil. Several builders have
found that Rebels with more than 115 HP can benefit from an extra notch
of negative flapperon - i.e. 12 degrees instead of the standard - 6

degrees.

This gives an extra 2-3 mph cruise, and improves stability in turbulence.
This is not possible on the Elite.

2. Certainly, an extra support bracket does add to the strength, but I
wouldn't lose any sleep worrying about the failure of those brackets !!
They're extrusions, not castings, and are extremely over requirements
- I've seen them with cables through them fastened to 2x6's LOADED
with sandbags ! They are likely stronger than the structure they're
attached to !

3. There <IS> a huge, powerful vortex generated by the gap between the
separate flap & aileron on the Elite. The tail was modified to reduce the
effect of the vortex on the elevator horns - but the vortex is still

there,

producing drag ! Even on the Rebel, builders should at least put a
cap strip of aluminum on top of the gap to reduce drag and improve
control effectiveness.

4. I believe the Beaver also has ailerons that droop some percentage
of the flap deflection. (30% ??)

5. Having chosen the Elite wing, I strongly believe you should stick with
it completely, AS DESIGNED ! You can't use the Rebel ailerons, as they
don't have the huge spades added to the metal Elite ailerons - this
would cause problems with the wing tips, balance, flutter ....

I think your best plan is to use the metal flaps AND ailerons,
with the spades & balance weights, AS DESIGNED, and live with the
limitations/differences of the Elite. Tieing the metal flaps and ailerons
together on the Elite wing, to make a flapperon, is something I doubt
the factory ever envisioned, and could cause balance and flutter problems,
not to mention higher control forces and loads. The bellcranks were

designed

for the smaller ailerons, and likely should be considerably longer to
handle full span flapperon loads.....

If you DO decide to try something different -

PLEASE CONTACT THE FACTORY BEFORE PROCEEDING !!!

I'm sure you wouldn't do anything potentially dangerous without
investigating thoroughly, but there might be someone out there tempted
to try something, based on this discussion ....

Sorry to add to an already-long post, but this is an important
topic, and it is best kept together in one place.

....bobp

-------------------------------orig.--------------------------------------

-----

At 01:25 AM 5/9/00 -0700, you wrote:

1. Reflex Position - Are you sure about the loss of negative flaperons,

aka

reflex position, with split flaps? I was told by the factory that one of
the improvements to the fuselage design when the Elite was designed was

to

change the fuselage contour so that it would be aligned with the flaps

(or

flaperons) when they were in the reflex position. I believe that is 5
degrees up. If you are used to seeing the Rebel flaperons higher than

the

fuselage when in the highest, reflex position and then see the Elite even
with the fuselage in the highest position, it doesn't necessarily mean

the

control surfaces are not in the reflex position. Need to check with the
contour of the wing to tell (or ask Murphy). Since both the split

controls

and the flaperons still use the same mixer arrangement to control the
flaps/flaperons/ailerons and the up position can be rigged anywhere, I

don't

see there is any reason the reflex position wouldn't exist for both the
split flap/ailerons or the flaperons. I believe the uppermost flap

position

on the Elite is 5 degrees reflex. Also, when I operated the controls of

the

factory taildragger Elite, both the flaps and the ailerons changed

position

when the flaps were operated. I can't recall if the ailerons moved down

as

far as the flaps in all positions, but they did assume a different, more
downward, or upward, position in unison with the flaps as the flap handle
was moved through its positions. It seems at some point they must

diverge

because I believe you can have more flap extension with the metal, 3

support

flaps, but you probably wouldn't want the ailerons to go down that far.
Guess I could check my manual, but then I would miss the opportunity to

look

stupid in public.

2. Flaperon Brackets - Should the lack of redundant support for the

control

surfaces be a concern? The Rebel shares the center hanger bracket with

both

the flap and the aileron. If that bracket failed, even on a flaperon
airplane, what is to prevent a simultaneous loss of support of the flap

and

aileron at one end? Unfortunately, it is not a simple matter of adding a
mid span support to the flap and aileron, as the Elite does, since this

will

be structurally sound only for the metal covered control surfaces,

according

to Darrel Murphy.

3. Gap Problem - I think the early Elite "problem" was due to a

combination

of air flow things including a redesigned empennage, fuselage and the

fact

that the metal flaps could be extended further which may have caused some
new and wondrous airflow across the tail. I believe that situation,
experienced only during prototype testing in the first few flights of the
first Elite, was solved by a design tweaking of the horizontal

stabilizer.

I remember visiting the factory several years earlier when they first

rigged

a Rebel with split flap and aileron as a precursor to the current design.
To my knowledge, they did not experience any problems associated with a

gap

and still had a reflex position available.

4. Cessna??? - I think if the "Beaver did it, it must be good!" Does

the

Beaver, the premier bush plane and floatplane, granddaddy of the Rebel,

use

split flaps and ailerons or flaperons? Guess I'll have to mosey down to
Kenmore Air and find out unless someone here can enlighten me.

5. Mixed Metal/Fabric Control Surfaces - Help!! - Right now I am in a
quandary. I prefer the fabric control surfaces in the flaperon
configuration, but I confess that I worry about that common aileron/flap
center bracket design. I can build it either way since I am building an
Elite, but upgraded from a Rebel. Prior to getting the higher strength
Elite wings, I had already completed the fabric ailerons and flaps. So

I

have both the metal and the fabric control surfaces and all the parts.

My

current thought is a compromise where I will go with a metal flap having

3

supports and a fabric aileron having 2 supports. I would like to couple
them together as flaperons, but I am uncertain of any flutter

consequences.

If I split the metal flaps and fabric ailerons, I can use a greater flap
extension position because of the stronger flaps and supports, but I miss
out on the benefits of flaperons for low speed control. Floats are in

the

future, but I can change then if necessary. Any wisdom out there to help

me

past this decision?

Sorry for the long post. Probably should have broken it into several
emails. I went back and added numbers and titles so anyone could
selectively respond if they desired and future readers could find the
subject in the archive files. This subject is of particular concern to

me

and I greatly appreciate the thoughts and experience that this forum
contains.

Thanks,
Chuck Skorupa
Elite S/N 500 (taildragger config)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, May 08, 2000 8:35 PM
Subject: RE: gobbledegook

Hi Brian !

I doubt you'll hear ANY good stories about split flaps &

ailerons

- the factory still only allows 6, 12, and 18 degrees of flap, even if
they are separate, because there are only 2 flap hanger brackets.

This means that you get half the flap, and half the aileron you
would normally get as flapperons, plus - you lose the advantage of
negative flapperon to increase cruise and stability ! Not a desirable
situation !!! Several float pilots have commented that the flapperon
really improves takeoff & landing performance on the water, as you
are changing the whole airfoil, instead of having a gap which generates
considerable turbulence... (remember the early Elite problem !)

But, some folks think that "Cessna did it, so it must be good" !!

;-)

.....bobp

----------------------------------orig.---------------------------------

At 12:26 AM 5/4/00 -0400, you wrote:

Geert

input

don't

give

you

full.

split

summation

came

to

get

to

much

trying

to

heavy

20.

I

press

each

duty

use

a

enough

have

is

kits

completed

only

word

for

the

2.5

is

also

the

fair.

I

Rebel

to

be

are

older?

almost

some

of

all

thanks,

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------

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between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm

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[Charles Skorupa]

Bob,
Thanks for the valuable insight. FYI, in my unique situation, I have
everything it takes to build either a Rebel wing or an Elite wing. I bought
the very first Elite kit (S/N #500) after starting a Rebel. The wing that
I have is the Rebel wing, upgraded to the Elite higher 1800 lb gross weight
capability with the addition of 0.032 leading edge skin and additional main
spar reinforcement at the strut area. I have not added the spar extensions,
etc or the other aileron brackets necessary for the Elite metal control
surfaces and Elite wingtips. So what I now have is a very strong Rebel
wing. I can use the standard Rebel wingtips or better yet, the Hornier
tips. The factory said it is OK to go with the same configuration as the
Rebel using fabric control surfaces and flaperons. By doing this it sounds
like I can get the best of the Elite stronger wing structure and higher
gross weight as well as the full length, lighter, and more controllable
Rebel flaperon system. I hadn't known about the extra bonus in eliminating
the gap and getting additional reflex. Best part is: my Rebel ailerons and
flaps are already complete and ready to cover! No need to scrap them now to
build the Elite metal ones. Also, I won't have to tear my completed wing
apart to add 2 more hanger brackets. The down side is I paid for a bunch of
parts I will not use. Oh well. It's only money! The facts, data and
opinions you and Wayne O'Shea have provided are helping greatly to corral
the considerations that seem to be self-defining the decision for me.
Thanks for putting up with my public trade study of control alternatives.
Hmmm, I didn't consider a RebElite biplane configuration yet.......Nah..

- Chuck Skorupa -
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: Flaps, Gaps and Brackets (was gobbledegook)

czesc Charles !

1. You are correct. The Elite was designed so that "neutral" flap or
'flaps up' is actually 5 degrees negative - this improves the cruise,
but you must remember to put some flap down if you want to get out of
a small field quickly.

The ailerons do droop with the flaps, as on the Super - the ratio
of droop is about 1/2, but can be adjusted ...

The reason I said you lost the advantages of negative flapperon is
that on the Elite, full up is the ONLY position where the flaps & ailerons
are aligned, smoothly changing the whole airfoil. Several builders have
found that Rebels with more than 115 HP can benefit from an extra notch
of negative flapperon - i.e. 12 degrees instead of the standard - 6

degrees.

This gives an extra 2-3 mph cruise, and improves stability in turbulence.
This is not possible on the Elite.

2. Certainly, an extra support bracket does add to the strength, but I
wouldn't lose any sleep worrying about the failure of those brackets !!
They're extrusions, not castings, and are extremely over requirements
- I've seen them with cables through them fastened to 2x6's LOADED
with sandbags ! They are likely stronger than the structure they're
attached to !

3. There <IS> a huge, powerful vortex generated by the gap between the
separate flap & aileron on the Elite. The tail was modified to reduce the
effect of the vortex on the elevator horns - but the vortex is still

there,

producing drag ! Even on the Rebel, builders should at least put a
cap strip of aluminum on top of the gap to reduce drag and improve
control effectiveness.

4. I believe the Beaver also has ailerons that droop some percentage
of the flap deflection. (30% ??)

5. Having chosen the Elite wing, I strongly believe you should stick with
it completely, AS DESIGNED ! You can't use the Rebel ailerons, as they
don't have the huge spades added to the metal Elite ailerons - this
would cause problems with the wing tips, balance, flutter ....

I think your best plan is to use the metal flaps AND ailerons,
with the spades & balance weights, AS DESIGNED, and live with the
limitations/differences of the Elite. Tieing the metal flaps and ailerons
together on the Elite wing, to make a flapperon, is something I doubt
the factory ever envisioned, and could cause balance and flutter problems,
not to mention higher control forces and loads. The bellcranks were

designed

for the smaller ailerons, and likely should be considerably longer to
handle full span flapperon loads.....

If you DO decide to try something different -

PLEASE CONTACT THE FACTORY BEFORE PROCEEDING !!!

I'm sure you wouldn't do anything potentially dangerous without
investigating thoroughly, but there might be someone out there tempted
to try something, based on this discussion ....

Sorry to add to an already-long post, but this is an important
topic, and it is best kept together in one place.

....bobp

-------------------------------orig.--------------------------------------

-----

At 01:25 AM 5/9/00 -0700, you wrote:

1. Reflex Position - Are you sure about the loss of negative flaperons,

aka

reflex position, with split flaps? I was told by the factory that one of
the improvements to the fuselage design when the Elite was designed was

to

change the fuselage contour so that it would be aligned with the flaps

(or

flaperons) when they were in the reflex position. I believe that is 5
degrees up. If you are used to seeing the Rebel flaperons higher than

the

fuselage when in the highest, reflex position and then see the Elite even
with the fuselage in the highest position, it doesn't necessarily mean

the

control surfaces are not in the reflex position. Need to check with the
contour of the wing to tell (or ask Murphy). Since both the split

controls

and the flaperons still use the same mixer arrangement to control the
flaps/flaperons/ailerons and the up position can be rigged anywhere, I

don't

see there is any reason the reflex position wouldn't exist for both the
split flap/ailerons or the flaperons. I believe the uppermost flap

position

on the Elite is 5 degrees reflex. Also, when I operated the controls of

the

factory taildragger Elite, both the flaps and the ailerons changed

position

when the flaps were operated. I can't recall if the ailerons moved down

as

far as the flaps in all positions, but they did assume a different, more
downward, or upward, position in unison with the flaps as the flap handle
was moved through its positions. It seems at some point they must

diverge

because I believe you can have more flap extension with the metal, 3

support

flaps, but you probably wouldn't want the ailerons to go down that far.
Guess I could check my manual, but then I would miss the opportunity to

look

stupid in public.

2. Flaperon Brackets - Should the lack of redundant support for the

control

surfaces be a concern? The Rebel shares the center hanger bracket with

both

the flap and the aileron. If that bracket failed, even on a flaperon
airplane, what is to prevent a simultaneous loss of support of the flap

and

aileron at one end? Unfortunately, it is not a simple matter of adding a
mid span support to the flap and aileron, as the Elite does, since this

will

be structurally sound only for the metal covered control surfaces,

according

to Darrel Murphy.

3. Gap Problem - I think the early Elite "problem" was due to a

combination

of air flow things including a redesigned empennage, fuselage and the

fact

that the metal flaps could be extended further which may have caused some
new and wondrous airflow across the tail. I believe that situation,
experienced only during prototype testing in the first few flights of the
first Elite, was solved by a design tweaking of the horizontal

stabilizer.

I remember visiting the factory several years earlier when they first

rigged

a Rebel with split flap and aileron as a precursor to the current design.
To my knowledge, they did not experience any problems associated with a

gap

and still had a reflex position available.

4. Cessna??? - I think if the "Beaver did it, it must be good!" Does

the

Beaver, the premier bush plane and floatplane, granddaddy of the Rebel,

use

split flaps and ailerons or flaperons? Guess I'll have to mosey down to
Kenmore Air and find out unless someone here can enlighten me.

5. Mixed Metal/Fabric Control Surfaces - Help!! - Right now I am in a
quandary. I prefer the fabric control surfaces in the flaperon
configuration, but I confess that I worry about that common aileron/flap
center bracket design. I can build it either way since I am building an
Elite, but upgraded from a Rebel. Prior to getting the higher strength
Elite wings, I had already completed the fabric ailerons and flaps. So

I

have both the metal and the fabric control surfaces and all the parts.

My

current thought is a compromise where I will go with a metal flap having

3

supports and a fabric aileron having 2 supports. I would like to couple
them together as flaperons, but I am uncertain of any flutter

consequences.

If I split the metal flaps and fabric ailerons, I can use a greater flap
extension position because of the stronger flaps and supports, but I miss
out on the benefits of flaperons for low speed control. Floats are in

the

future, but I can change then if necessary. Any wisdom out there to help

me

past this decision?

Sorry for the long post. Probably should have broken it into several
emails. I went back and added numbers and titles so anyone could
selectively respond if they desired and future readers could find the
subject in the archive files. This subject is of particular concern to

me

and I greatly appreciate the thoughts and experience that this forum
contains.

Thanks,
Chuck Skorupa
Elite S/N 500 (taildragger config)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, May 08, 2000 8:35 PM
Subject: RE: gobbledegook

Hi Brian !

I doubt you'll hear ANY good stories about split flaps &

ailerons

- the factory still only allows 6, 12, and 18 degrees of flap, even if
they are separate, because there are only 2 flap hanger brackets.

This means that you get half the flap, and half the aileron you
would normally get as flapperons, plus - you lose the advantage of
negative flapperon to increase cruise and stability ! Not a desirable
situation !!! Several float pilots have commented that the flapperon
really improves takeoff & landing performance on the water, as you
are changing the whole airfoil, instead of having a gap which generates
considerable turbulence... (remember the early Elite problem !)

But, some folks think that "Cessna did it, so it must be good" !!

;-)

.....bobp

----------------------------------orig.---------------------------------

At 12:26 AM 5/4/00 -0400, you wrote:

Geert

input

don't

give

you

full.

split

summation

came

to

get

to

much

trying

to

heavy

20.

I

press

each

duty

use

a

enough

have

is

kits

completed

only

word

for

the

2.5

is

also

the

fair.

I

Rebel

to

be

are

older?

almost

some

of

all

thanks,

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------

-

-

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------

-

-

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------

-

---------*

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------

-

---------*

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

-

--------*

The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

-

--------*

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------*

The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------*

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*

The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*

*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*




-----------------------------------------------------------------
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[Bob Patterson]

czesc Charles !

1. You are correct. The Elite was designed so that "neutral" flap or
'flaps up' is actually 5 degrees negative - this improves the cruise,
but you must remember to put some flap down if you want to get out of
a small field quickly.

The ailerons do droop with the flaps, as on the Super - the ratio
of droop is about 1/2, but can be adjusted ...

The reason I said you lost the advantages of negative flapperon is
that on the Elite, full up is the ONLY position where the flaps & ailerons
are aligned, smoothly changing the whole airfoil. Several builders have
found that Rebels with more than 115 HP can benefit from an extra notch
of negative flapperon - i.e. 12 degrees instead of the standard - 6 degrees.
This gives an extra 2-3 mph cruise, and improves stability in turbulence.
This is not possible on the Elite.

2. Certainly, an extra support bracket does add to the strength, but I
wouldn't lose any sleep worrying about the failure of those brackets !!
They're extrusions, not castings, and are extremely over requirements
- I've seen them with cables through them fastened to 2x6's LOADED
with sandbags ! They are likely stronger than the structure they're
attached to !

3. There <IS> a huge, powerful vortex generated by the gap between the
separate flap & aileron on the Elite. The tail was modified to reduce the
effect of the vortex on the elevator horns - but the vortex is still there,
producing drag ! Even on the Rebel, builders should at least put a
cap strip of aluminum on top of the gap to reduce drag and improve
control effectiveness.

4. I believe the Beaver also has ailerons that droop some percentage
of the flap deflection. (30% ??)

5. Having chosen the Elite wing, I strongly believe you should stick with
it completely, AS DESIGNED ! You can't use the Rebel ailerons, as they
don't have the huge spades added to the metal Elite ailerons - this
would cause problems with the wing tips, balance, flutter ....

I think your best plan is to use the metal flaps AND ailerons,
with the spades & balance weights, AS DESIGNED, and live with the
limitations/differences of the Elite. Tieing the metal flaps and ailerons
together on the Elite wing, to make a flapperon, is something I doubt
the factory ever envisioned, and could cause balance and flutter problems,
not to mention higher control forces and loads. The bellcranks were designed
for the smaller ailerons, and likely should be considerably longer to
handle full span flapperon loads.....

If you DO decide to try something different -

PLEASE CONTACT THE FACTORY BEFORE PROCEEDING !!!

I'm sure you wouldn't do anything potentially dangerous without
investigating thoroughly, but there might be someone out there tempted
to try something, based on this discussion ....

Sorry to add to an already-long post, but this is an important
topic, and it is best kept together in one place.

....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------------
At 01:25 AM 5/9/00 -0700, you wrote:

1. Reflex Position - Are you sure about the loss of negative flaperons, aka
reflex position, with split flaps? I was told by the factory that one of
the improvements to the fuselage design when the Elite was designed was to
change the fuselage contour so that it would be aligned with the flaps (or
flaperons) when they were in the reflex position. I believe that is 5
degrees up. If you are used to seeing the Rebel flaperons higher than the
fuselage when in the highest, reflex position and then see the Elite even
with the fuselage in the highest position, it doesn't necessarily mean the
control surfaces are not in the reflex position. Need to check with the
contour of the wing to tell (or ask Murphy). Since both the split controls
and the flaperons still use the same mixer arrangement to control the
flaps/flaperons/ailerons and the up position can be rigged anywhere, I don't
see there is any reason the reflex position wouldn't exist for both the
split flap/ailerons or the flaperons. I believe the uppermost flap position
on the Elite is 5 degrees reflex. Also, when I operated the controls of the
factory taildragger Elite, both the flaps and the ailerons changed position
when the flaps were operated. I can't recall if the ailerons moved down as
far as the flaps in all positions, but they did assume a different, more
downward, or upward, position in unison with the flaps as the flap handle
was moved through its positions. It seems at some point they must diverge
because I believe you can have more flap extension with the metal, 3 support
flaps, but you probably wouldn't want the ailerons to go down that far.
Guess I could check my manual, but then I would miss the opportunity to look
stupid in public.

2. Flaperon Brackets - Should the lack of redundant support for the control
surfaces be a concern? The Rebel shares the center hanger bracket with both
the flap and the aileron. If that bracket failed, even on a flaperon
airplane, what is to prevent a simultaneous loss of support of the flap and
aileron at one end? Unfortunately, it is not a simple matter of adding a
mid span support to the flap and aileron, as the Elite does, since this will
be structurally sound only for the metal covered control surfaces, according
to Darrel Murphy.

3. Gap Problem - I think the early Elite "problem" was due to a combination
of air flow things including a redesigned empennage, fuselage and the fact
that the metal flaps could be extended further which may have caused some
new and wondrous airflow across the tail. I believe that situation,
experienced only during prototype testing in the first few flights of the
first Elite, was solved by a design tweaking of the horizontal stabilizer.
I remember visiting the factory several years earlier when they first rigged
a Rebel with split flap and aileron as a precursor to the current design.
To my knowledge, they did not experience any problems associated with a gap
and still had a reflex position available.

4. Cessna??? - I think if the "Beaver did it, it must be good!" Does the
Beaver, the premier bush plane and floatplane, granddaddy of the Rebel, use
split flaps and ailerons or flaperons? Guess I'll have to mosey down to
Kenmore Air and find out unless someone here can enlighten me.

5. Mixed Metal/Fabric Control Surfaces - Help!! - Right now I am in a
quandary. I prefer the fabric control surfaces in the flaperon
configuration, but I confess that I worry about that common aileron/flap
center bracket design. I can build it either way since I am building an
Elite, but upgraded from a Rebel. Prior to getting the higher strength
Elite wings, I had already completed the fabric ailerons and flaps. So I
have both the metal and the fabric control surfaces and all the parts. My
current thought is a compromise where I will go with a metal flap having 3
supports and a fabric aileron having 2 supports. I would like to couple
them together as flaperons, but I am uncertain of any flutter consequences.
If I split the metal flaps and fabric ailerons, I can use a greater flap
extension position because of the stronger flaps and supports, but I miss
out on the benefits of flaperons for low speed control. Floats are in the
future, but I can change then if necessary. Any wisdom out there to help me
past this decision?

Sorry for the long post. Probably should have broken it into several
emails. I went back and added numbers and titles so anyone could
selectively respond if they desired and future readers could find the
subject in the archive files. This subject is of particular concern to me
and I greatly appreciate the thoughts and experience that this forum
contains.

Thanks,
Chuck Skorupa
Elite S/N 500 (taildragger config)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, May 08, 2000 8:35 PM
Subject: RE: gobbledegook

Hi Brian !

I doubt you'll hear ANY good stories about split flaps & ailerons
- the factory still only allows 6, 12, and 18 degrees of flap, even if
they are separate, because there are only 2 flap hanger brackets.

This means that you get half the flap, and half the aileron you
would normally get as flapperons, plus - you lose the advantage of
negative flapperon to increase cruise and stability ! Not a desirable
situation !!! Several float pilots have commented that the flapperon
really improves takeoff & landing performance on the water, as you
are changing the whole airfoil, instead of having a gap which generates
considerable turbulence... (remember the early Elite problem !)

But, some folks think that "Cessna did it, so it must be good" !! ;-)

.....bobp

----------------------------------orig.---------------------------------
At 12:26 AM 5/4/00 -0400, you wrote:

Hi There

I am not convinced at all that splitting the flaps is a good idea. As

Geert

mentions, you will defintely lose aileron effectiveness. On strong
crosswind landings, I find that you want all of the available aileron

input

to keep it tracking down the centre & there are still times that I don't
have enough. I know that I am FAR from a great pilot, but my
feeling/opinion is that you want all the aileron input which the 12'
aileron/flapperon can give you.

Also, I can't really imagine what great benefit the split flap can give

you

as the stall is low, and I find that I prefer half flap on landing vs.

full.

Maybe someone can comment & tell us of their positive experiences with

split

flaps.

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: Geert Frank [mailto:storchpilot@mediaone.net]
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2000 10:11 AM
To: murphy archives
Cc: Jan Eggenfellner
Subject: gobbledegook


Hi everybody. I must have the same machine as bobp, the May 1 summation

came

through almost all HTML i.e. not plain text. Ian, sorry I too wanted to

get

down to 8 instead of 12 bungee rings...(the 400 lbs rings), primarily to
soften up those landings a little. It does not work, the gear is now much
too "soft". Dave B. who had two landing gear failures also strongly
recommended to use all 12 loops. Next, for the person that is trying

to

lift an UTVA tail (?, Wayne hisself?) the Rebel I don't think is that

heavy

back there, but I made up a simple sling using a horse saddle belly
strap(cinge) which is fleece covered and has two very sturdy rings, $ 20.

I

used a 24" piece of pipe, drilled three holes into same (use drill press
only, handheld drill will put you in mental home!) and stuck one 3/16
eyebolt upwards in the center and two downward at the ends.
Two pieces of 3/16" cable, one piece for each side (24" for the Rebel,
including loops). Attach three of the cable ends directly to the down
eyebolts and rings in cinge, using a shackle and two cable clamps at each
point, one end attach it to one of those quick disconnect snaps( heavy

duty

please) and you can lift the tail by your own self. I use one of those
engine mini cranes, hook of course through the top eye. Or you could use

a

simple come-along attached to the rafters providing they are strong

enough

of course. I place my lift strap just forward of the lift handles I have
installed. Over the rivetline of course. Ok? Next a few questions: is
there a list somewhere of what actually happened to the over 600 Rebel

kits

sold? How many projects were abandoned? How many flying? How many

completed

but not flying? Why only 132 (correct?) people active on this site? I

only

see about six to eight names appear myself, but I'll take someone's word

for

that 132 figure. To use the cliche: Where IS everybody??? I have
temporarily abandoned the upgrade from my 2.2 liter Subaru Legacy to the

2.5

liter Eggenfellner one. It almost makes use of an electric c.s. prop
mandatory and there goes another $ 4000. My D I Y junkyard 2.2 liter is

also

running fine with it's 3-bladed Warpdrive. I found the summation of the
Subaru conversions by Ken K. quite interesting and actually pretty fair.

I

do agree on the resale value, but I also heard of some guys buying a

Rebel

precisely because it had a Subaru engine. Go figure! One thing seems to

be

never mentioned: you buy a used many times overhauled Lycoming, you are
sitting behind some old stuff, going back to what year? 1968, 1972,

older?

My engine was not "born" until 1990. Eggenfellner seems to be using

almost

all1999 or 2000 engines. That gives me a lot more confidence.
Finally I still have the seperate flaps on my Rebel. Can I hear from some

of

the experienced guys, to yes or no convert back to flaperons? I am not

all

that happy with the aileron effectiveness, so I am considering. Many

thanks,

Geert

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[Bob Patterson]

WOW !! Sounds like you are indeed blessed with 'the best options' !!
I agree - if you can do it, the Rebel flapperons are the ideal setup for
floats and good cruise. With the Hoerner tips, and the McKenzie STOL kit,
you end up with "The Best Float Plane in the World"(TM) !! ;-)

I guess the only thing I would want to check out is the control
throws & bellcrank sizes, to be sure that everything was the same as the
regular Rebel. You can certainly get the parts, if needed ....

Sounds like you're going to have one GREAT RebElite !!!

(Hmmmm ...... biplane ..... hmmmmm :-) )

....bobp

---------------------------------orig.----------------------------------------
At 05:44 PM 5/11/00 -0700, you wrote:

Bob,
Thanks for the valuable insight. FYI, in my unique situation, I have
everything it takes to build either a Rebel wing or an Elite wing. I bought
the very first Elite kit (S/N #500) after starting a Rebel. The wing that
I have is the Rebel wing, upgraded to the Elite higher 1800 lb gross weight
capability with the addition of 0.032 leading edge skin and additional main
spar reinforcement at the strut area. I have not added the spar extensions,
etc or the other aileron brackets necessary for the Elite metal control
surfaces and Elite wingtips. So what I now have is a very strong Rebel
wing. I can use the standard Rebel wingtips or better yet, the Hornier
tips. The factory said it is OK to go with the same configuration as the
Rebel using fabric control surfaces and flaperons. By doing this it sounds
like I can get the best of the Elite stronger wing structure and higher
gross weight as well as the full length, lighter, and more controllable
Rebel flaperon system. I hadn't known about the extra bonus in eliminating
the gap and getting additional reflex. Best part is: my Rebel ailerons and
flaps are already complete and ready to cover! No need to scrap them now to
build the Elite metal ones. Also, I won't have to tear my completed wing
apart to add 2 more hanger brackets. The down side is I paid for a bunch of
parts I will not use. Oh well. It's only money! The facts, data and
opinions you and Wayne O'Shea have provided are helping greatly to corral
the considerations that seem to be self-defining the decision for me.
Thanks for putting up with my public trade study of control alternatives.
Hmmm, I didn't consider a RebElite biplane configuration yet.......Nah..

- Chuck Skorupa -
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: Flaps, Gaps and Brackets (was gobbledegook)

czesc Charles !

1. You are correct. The Elite was designed so that "neutral" flap or
'flaps up' is actually 5 degrees negative - this improves the cruise,
but you must remember to put some flap down if you want to get out of
a small field quickly.

The ailerons do droop with the flaps, as on the Super - the ratio
of droop is about 1/2, but can be adjusted ...

The reason I said you lost the advantages of negative flapperon is
that on the Elite, full up is the ONLY position where the flaps & ailerons
are aligned, smoothly changing the whole airfoil. Several builders have
found that Rebels with more than 115 HP can benefit from an extra notch
of negative flapperon - i.e. 12 degrees instead of the standard - 6

degrees.

This gives an extra 2-3 mph cruise, and improves stability in turbulence.
This is not possible on the Elite.

2. Certainly, an extra support bracket does add to the strength, but I
wouldn't lose any sleep worrying about the failure of those brackets !!
They're extrusions, not castings, and are extremely over requirements
- I've seen them with cables through them fastened to 2x6's LOADED
with sandbags ! They are likely stronger than the structure they're
attached to !

3. There <IS> a huge, powerful vortex generated by the gap between the
separate flap & aileron on the Elite. The tail was modified to reduce the
effect of the vortex on the elevator horns - but the vortex is still

there,

producing drag ! Even on the Rebel, builders should at least put a
cap strip of aluminum on top of the gap to reduce drag and improve
control effectiveness.

4. I believe the Beaver also has ailerons that droop some percentage
of the flap deflection. (30% ??)

5. Having chosen the Elite wing, I strongly believe you should stick with
it completely, AS DESIGNED ! You can't use the Rebel ailerons, as they
don't have the huge spades added to the metal Elite ailerons - this
would cause problems with the wing tips, balance, flutter ....

I think your best plan is to use the metal flaps AND ailerons,
with the spades & balance weights, AS DESIGNED, and live with the
limitations/differences of the Elite. Tieing the metal flaps and ailerons
together on the Elite wing, to make a flapperon, is something I doubt
the factory ever envisioned, and could cause balance and flutter problems,
not to mention higher control forces and loads. The bellcranks were

designed

for the smaller ailerons, and likely should be considerably longer to
handle full span flapperon loads.....

If you DO decide to try something different -

PLEASE CONTACT THE FACTORY BEFORE PROCEEDING !!!

I'm sure you wouldn't do anything potentially dangerous without
investigating thoroughly, but there might be someone out there tempted
to try something, based on this discussion ....

Sorry to add to an already-long post, but this is an important
topic, and it is best kept together in one place.

....bobp

-------------------------------orig.--------------------------------------

-----

At 01:25 AM 5/9/00 -0700, you wrote:

1. Reflex Position - Are you sure about the loss of negative flaperons,

aka

reflex position, with split flaps? I was told by the factory that one of
the improvements to the fuselage design when the Elite was designed was

to

change the fuselage contour so that it would be aligned with the flaps

(or

flaperons) when they were in the reflex position. I believe that is 5
degrees up. If you are used to seeing the Rebel flaperons higher than

the

fuselage when in the highest, reflex position and then see the Elite even
with the fuselage in the highest position, it doesn't necessarily mean

the

control surfaces are not in the reflex position. Need to check with the
contour of the wing to tell (or ask Murphy). Since both the split

controls

and the flaperons still use the same mixer arrangement to control the
flaps/flaperons/ailerons and the up position can be rigged anywhere, I

don't

see there is any reason the reflex position wouldn't exist for both the
split flap/ailerons or the flaperons. I believe the uppermost flap

position

on the Elite is 5 degrees reflex. Also, when I operated the controls of

the

factory taildragger Elite, both the flaps and the ailerons changed

position

when the flaps were operated. I can't recall if the ailerons moved down

as

far as the flaps in all positions, but they did assume a different, more
downward, or upward, position in unison with the flaps as the flap handle
was moved through its positions. It seems at some point they must

diverge

because I believe you can have more flap extension with the metal, 3

support

flaps, but you probably wouldn't want the ailerons to go down that far.
Guess I could check my manual, but then I would miss the opportunity to

look

stupid in public.

2. Flaperon Brackets - Should the lack of redundant support for the

control

surfaces be a concern? The Rebel shares the center hanger bracket with

both

the flap and the aileron. If that bracket failed, even on a flaperon
airplane, what is to prevent a simultaneous loss of support of the flap

and

aileron at one end? Unfortunately, it is not a simple matter of adding a
mid span support to the flap and aileron, as the Elite does, since this

will

be structurally sound only for the metal covered control surfaces,

according

to Darrel Murphy.

3. Gap Problem - I think the early Elite "problem" was due to a

combination

of air flow things including a redesigned empennage, fuselage and the

fact

that the metal flaps could be extended further which may have caused some
new and wondrous airflow across the tail. I believe that situation,
experienced only during prototype testing in the first few flights of the
first Elite, was solved by a design tweaking of the horizontal

stabilizer.

I remember visiting the factory several years earlier when they first

rigged

a Rebel with split flap and aileron as a precursor to the current design.
To my knowledge, they did not experience any problems associated with a

gap

and still had a reflex position available.

4. Cessna??? - I think if the "Beaver did it, it must be good!" Does

the

Beaver, the premier bush plane and floatplane, granddaddy of the Rebel,

use

split flaps and ailerons or flaperons? Guess I'll have to mosey down to
Kenmore Air and find out unless someone here can enlighten me.

5. Mixed Metal/Fabric Control Surfaces - Help!! - Right now I am in a
quandary. I prefer the fabric control surfaces in the flaperon
configuration, but I confess that I worry about that common aileron/flap
center bracket design. I can build it either way since I am building an
Elite, but upgraded from a Rebel. Prior to getting the higher strength
Elite wings, I had already completed the fabric ailerons and flaps. So

I

have both the metal and the fabric control surfaces and all the parts.

My

current thought is a compromise where I will go with a metal flap having

3

supports and a fabric aileron having 2 supports. I would like to couple
them together as flaperons, but I am uncertain of any flutter

consequences.

If I split the metal flaps and fabric ailerons, I can use a greater flap
extension position because of the stronger flaps and supports, but I miss
out on the benefits of flaperons for low speed control. Floats are in

the

future, but I can change then if necessary. Any wisdom out there to help

me

past this decision?

Sorry for the long post. Probably should have broken it into several
emails. I went back and added numbers and titles so anyone could
selectively respond if they desired and future readers could find the
subject in the archive files. This subject is of particular concern to

me

and I greatly appreciate the thoughts and experience that this forum
contains.

Thanks,
Chuck Skorupa
Elite S/N 500 (taildragger config)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, May 08, 2000 8:35 PM
Subject: RE: gobbledegook

ailerons

;-)

----------------------------------orig.--------------------------------- Geert input

don't

give

you full. split

summation

came

to

get

to

much

trying

to heavy

20.

I

press

each

duty

use

a enough

have

is

kits completed only

word

for

the

2.5

is

also

the

fair.

I Rebel

to

be

are

older? almost

some

of all thanks,

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