The Murphy Builders Site

I hear what you are saying Eric! There's a little "Texan" in all of
us..HOWEVER....I'd sure be checking that those tailfeathers are still there
and securely attached before EVERY flight.

Remember the Rebel was designed as an 80HP aircraft originally and then the
push was on to allow an O-235. Then some of us pushed that envelope to an
"unapproved" at the time O-320 x 150HP...then 160HP and now we're talking
180 and 195HP O-360's. It's not the weight that's at issue...it's the prop
blast from that HP/Torque that's sooner or later gonna make them little tail
feathers say enough is enough...and I don't want to be riding with you when
they do.

This is the fate of many a Supercub that was bumped up to an O-360 by
STC...tailfeather failure.

My 3 cents Canadian,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <eric.r@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 10:01 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] More Power

I may be wrong, but most engineering is done to protect the ham-fisted, and
I'll be installing the O-360 in my Rebel. Keeping the weight down with
light
accessories, running a light weight fixed pitch prop, and balancing any cg
issues with the Odyssey AGM battery placed wherever necessary ... cables
and battery will be the last installed items.(Bogert low loss cables do
work
wonders when they are needed). As far as the extra power: when installed
weight is near the same, I'll take the torque every time! A quicker water
take-
off if really needed, and a little extra power in a climb-out over
obstacles or
mountains ... or should I dare say weather can come in handy. If I can get
more power with the same weight (or close, or lighter than some O-320
firewall forward applications), I'll just keep it available at my
fingertips.
Steve Wittman designed (or suggested) the little Continentals for his
tailwind,
yet he ran a big bore six cylinder Continental in his personal airplane. I
understand the designers placing limits based on the average end-user
I'm not looking for more speed or Rocket climb performance, just a little
extra
juice when needed. The most fun and comfortable "just plain flying here
and
there" airplane I operated was a Cessna 150 with the 150 conversion. It
turned the little airplane into a useable mountain crosser!




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Steve Wittman died in that Tailwind...as did his wife...


----- Original Message ----
From: Wayne G. O'Shea <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 10:39:21 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] More Power


I hear what you are saying Eric! There's a little "Texan" in all of
us..HOWEVER....I'd sure be checking that those tailfeathers are still there
and securely attached before EVERY flight.

Remember the Rebel was designed as an 80HP aircraft originally and then the
push was on to allow an O-235. Then some of us pushed that envelope to an
"unapproved" at the time O-320 x 150HP...then 160HP and now we're talking
180 and 195HP O-360's. It's not the weight that's at issue...it's the prop
blast from that HP/Torque that's sooner or later gonna make them little tail
feathers say enough is enough...and I don't want to be riding with you when
they do.

This is the fate of many a Supercub that was bumped up to an O-360 by
STC...tailfeather failure.

My 3 cents Canadian,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <eric.r@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 10:01 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] More Power

I may be wrong, but most engineering is done to protect the ham-fisted, and
I'll be installing the O-360 in my Rebel. Keeping the weight down with
light
accessories, running a light weight fixed pitch prop, and balancing any cg
issues with the Odyssey AGM battery placed wherever necessary ... cables
and battery will be the last installed items.(Bogert low loss cables do
work
wonders when they are needed). As far as the extra power: when installed
weight is near the same, I'll take the torque every time! A quicker water
take-
off if really needed, and a little extra power in a climb-out over
obstacles or
mountains ... or should I dare say weather can come in handy. If I can get
more power with the same weight (or close, or lighter than some O-320
firewall forward applications), I'll just keep it available at my
fingertips.
Steve Wittman designed (or suggested) the little Continentals for his
tailwind,
yet he ran a big bore six cylinder Continental in his personal airplane. I
understand the designers placing limits based on the average end-user
I'm not looking for more speed or Rocket climb performance, just a little
extra
juice when needed. The most fun and comfortable "just plain flying here
and
there" airplane I operated was a Cessna 150 with the 150 conversion. It
turned the little airplane into a useable mountain crosser!




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True .... yes they did ... but from memory it was proved to be delamination of the fabric due to a "mismatch" of glues , fillers & paint types that took 20 years to "let go" !

Biggus
----- Original Message -----
From: Rich Dodson
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 9:38 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] More Power


Steve Wittman died in that Tailwind...as did his wife...


----- Original Message ----
From: Wayne G. O'Shea <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 10:39:21 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] More Power


I hear what you are saying Eric! There's a little "Texan" in all of
us..HOWEVER....I'd sure be checking that those tailfeathers are still there
and securely attached before EVERY flight.

Remember the Rebel was designed as an 80HP aircraft originally and then the
push was on to allow an O-235. Then some of us pushed that envelope to an
"unapproved" at the time O-320 x 150HP...then 160HP and now we're talking
180 and 195HP O-360's. It's not the weight that's at issue...it's the prop
blast from that HP/Torque that's sooner or later gonna make them little tail
feathers say enough is enough...and I don't want to be riding with you when
they do.

This is the fate of many a Supercub that was bumped up to an O-360 by
STC...tailfeather failure.

My 3 cents Canadian,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <eric.r@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 10:01 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] More Power

I may be wrong, but most engineering is done to protect the ham-fisted, and
I'll be installing the O-360 in my Rebel. Keeping the weight down with
light
accessories, running a light weight fixed pitch prop, and balancing any cg
issues with the Odyssey AGM battery placed wherever necessary ... cables
and battery will be the last installed items.(Bogert low loss cables do
work
wonders when they are needed). As far as the extra power: when installed
weight is near the same, I'll take the torque every time! A quicker water
take-
off if really needed, and a little extra power in a climb-out over
obstacles or
mountains ... or should I dare say weather can come in handy. If I can get
more power with the same weight (or close, or lighter than some O-320
firewall forward applications), I'll just keep it available at my
fingertips.
Steve Wittman designed (or suggested) the little Continentals for his
tailwind,
yet he ran a big bore six cylinder Continental in his personal airplane. I
understand the designers placing limits based on the average end-user
I'm not looking for more speed or Rocket climb performance, just a little
extra
juice when needed. The most fun and comfortable "just plain flying here
and
there" airplane I operated was a Cessna 150 with the 150 conversion. It
turned the little airplane into a useable mountain crosser!




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I questioned the fitting of more HP with Murphy sometime ago and that was
his main concern. Tail group won't handle the HP.

Steve W. 637R

From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] More Power
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 22:39:21 -0500

I hear what you are saying Eric! There's a little "Texan" in all of
us..HOWEVER....I'd sure be checking that those tailfeathers are still there
and securely attached before EVERY flight.

Remember the Rebel was designed as an 80HP aircraft originally and then the
push was on to allow an O-235. Then some of us pushed that envelope to an
"unapproved" at the time O-320 x 150HP...then 160HP and now we're talking
180 and 195HP O-360's. It's not the weight that's at issue...it's the prop
blast from that HP/Torque that's sooner or later gonna make them little
tail
feathers say enough is enough...and I don't want to be riding with you when
they do.

This is the fate of many a Supercub that was bumped up to an O-360 by
STC...tailfeather failure.

My 3 cents Canadian,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <eric.r@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 10:01 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] More Power

I may be wrong, but most engineering is done to protect the ham-fisted,

and

I'll be installing the O-360 in my Rebel. Keeping the weight down with
light
accessories, running a light weight fixed pitch prop, and balancing any

cg

issues with the Odyssey AGM battery placed wherever necessary ... cables
and battery will be the last installed items.(Bogert low loss cables do
work
wonders when they are needed). As far as the extra power: when installed
weight is near the same, I'll take the torque every time! A quicker

water

take-
off if really needed, and a little extra power in a climb-out over
obstacles or
mountains ... or should I dare say weather can come in handy. If I can

get

more power with the same weight (or close, or lighter than some O-320
firewall forward applications), I'll just keep it available at my
fingertips.
Steve Wittman designed (or suggested) the little Continentals for his
tailwind,
yet he ran a big bore six cylinder Continental in his personal airplane.

I

understand the designers placing limits based on the average end-user
I'm not looking for more speed or Rocket climb performance, just a

little

extra
juice when needed. The most fun and comfortable "just plain flying here
and
there" airplane I operated was a Cessna 150 with the 150 conversion. It
turned the little airplane into a useable mountain crosser!




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_________________________________________________________________
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I knew I would get a rise with my post about the O-360 and Steve Wittman. I
also know that he died in the tailwind as a result of fabric coming unglued
from the wing surface. May I go at a ripe old age doing what I enjoy.
An O-360 at the same weight of an O-320 installation operated at lower
power settings will outlast the O-320 running at 75% and still have that "war
emergency" power setting available in case of dire need. I'll put manifold
pressure and RPM red-lines for 160hp and live happily ever-after in the
knowledge that "it's in there" if I need it. I do know of some float pilots up
there in Canada who "adjust" the prop governor on those 182's for when they
need a few extra rev's... Frank Robinson has been using bigger engines red-
lined for lower power in his helicopters from the beginning ... no heating
problems and they make TBO! (personal experience managing a fleet of
Robbies and Jet-Rangers ... also de-rated by the way ...resulted in no top
end problems in the Lycs in 2000 hrs).
Oh yeah: I'll watch my tail.
On 1/1/2007 9:15 AM, srwhitenect@hotmail.com wrote to rebel-builders:

-> I questioned the fitting of more HP with Murphy sometime ago and that
was
-> his main concern. Tail group won't handle the HP.
->
-> Steve W. 637R
->
->
-> >From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
-> >Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
-> >To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
-> >Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] More Power
-> >Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 22:39:21 -0500
-> >
-> >I hear what you are saying Eric! There's a little "Texan" in all of
-> >us..HOWEVER....I'd sure be checking that those tailfeathers are still there
-> >and securely attached before EVERY flight.
-> >
-> >Remember the Rebel was designed as an 80HP aircraft originally and then
the
-> >push was on to allow an O-235. Then some of us pushed that envelope
to an
-> >"unapproved" at the time O-320 x 150HP...then 160HP and now we're
talking
-> >180 and 195HP O-360's. It's not the weight that's at issue...it's the prop
-> >blast from that HP/Torque that's sooner or later gonna make them little
-> >tail
-> >feathers say enough is enough...and I don't want to be riding with you
when
-> >they do.
-> >
-> >This is the fate of many a Supercub that was bumped up to an O-360 by
-> >STC...tailfeather failure.
-> >
-> >My 3 cents Canadian,
-> >Wayne
-> >
-> >----- Original Message -----
-> >From: <eric.r@dcsol.com>
-> >To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
-> >Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 10:01 PM
-> >Subject: [rebel-builders] More Power
-> >
-> >
-> > >I may be wrong, but most engineering is done to protect the ham-
fisted,
-> >and
-> > > I'll be installing the O-360 in my Rebel. Keeping the weight down with
-> > > light
-> > > accessories, running a light weight fixed pitch prop, and balancing any
-> >cg
-> > > issues with the Odyssey AGM battery placed wherever necessary ...
cables
-> > > and battery will be the last installed items.(Bogert low loss cables do
-> > > work
-> > > wonders when they are needed). As far as the extra power: when
installed
-> > > weight is near the same, I'll take the torque every time! A quicker
-> >water
-> > > take-
-> > > off if really needed, and a little extra power in a climb-out over
-> > > obstacles or
-> > > mountains ... or should I dare say weather can come in handy. If I
can
-> >get
-> > > more power with the same weight (or close, or lighter than some O-
320
-> > > firewall forward applications), I'll just keep it available at my
-> > > fingertips.
-> > > Steve Wittman designed (or suggested) the little Continentals for his
-> > > tailwind,
-> > > yet he ran a big bore six cylinder Continental in his personal airplane.
-> >I
-> > > understand the designers placing limits based on the average end-user
-> > > I'm not looking for more speed or Rocket climb performance, just a
-> >little
-> > > extra
-> > > juice when needed. The most fun and comfortable "just plain flying
here
-> > > and
-> > > there" airplane I operated was a Cessna 150 with the 150 conversion.
It
-> > > turned the little airplane into a useable mountain crosser!
-> > >
-> > >
-> > >
-> > >
-> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> > > List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
-> > > username "rebel" password "builder"
-> > > Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
-> > > List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> > >
-> > >
-> > >
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >-----------------------------------------------------------------
-> > List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
-> > username "rebel" password "builder"
-> > Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
-> > List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> >-----------------------------------------------------------------
-> >
-> >
-> >
->
->
_________________________________________________________________
-> Download now! Visit http://www.telusmobility.com/msnxbox/ to enter and
see
-> how cool it is to get Messenger with you on your cell phone.
-> http://www.telusmobility.com/msnxbox/
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I know there are a few 0360 Rebels around now, and have not heard of any
problems yet. There is even a Cont 210 hp 0360 Rebel near Seattle. I think
some are on the list, and would sure like to hear from them on the subject.
I am still thinking of upgrading mine to a clone 0360 one of these years
(hoping for our Cdn buck to move up more again). My only reason is for
getting out of the higher alpine lakes. Otherwise, my 150 hp Lyc is just
fine for climb and cruise.

I have talked to Darryl as well about the Rebel tail, and yes, he thought
that it might be a weak point, but couldn't confirm it, as it just wasn't
tested to that level. However, I do know that a number of mods have been
done to the tail to strengthen it on the Rebel, and would like to know if
others are still finding any more weak spots with time. I have close to 500
hours on mine now, and no sign of any problems at all. But then most of my
Rebel's life has been on floats, not on tail wheels and skis, which I think
causes quite a bit more wear and tear back there.

But I respect Wayne's point about the more powerful prop blasts of the 0360,
and would definitely like to see more hours on other 0360 Rebels before I
try one on mine.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
eric.r@dcsol.com
Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 12:55 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] More Power

I knew I would get a rise with my post about the O-360 and Steve Wittman. I
also know that he died in the tailwind as a result of fabric coming unglued
from the wing surface. May I go at a ripe old age doing what I enjoy.
An O-360 at the same weight of an O-320 installation operated at lower
power settings will outlast the O-320 running at 75% and still have that
"war
emergency" power setting available in case of dire need. I'll put manifold
pressure and RPM red-lines for 160hp and live happily ever-after in the
knowledge that "it's in there" if I need it. I do know of some float pilots
up
there in Canada who "adjust" the prop governor on those 182's for when they
need a few extra rev's... Frank Robinson has been using bigger engines red-
lined for lower power in his helicopters from the beginning ... no heating
problems and they make TBO! (personal experience managing a fleet of
Robbies and Jet-Rangers ... also de-rated by the way ...resulted in no top
end problems in the Lycs in 2000 hrs).
Oh yeah: I'll watch my tail.
On 1/1/2007 9:15 AM, srwhitenect@hotmail.com wrote to rebel-builders:

-> I questioned the fitting of more HP with Murphy sometime ago and that
was
-> his main concern. Tail group won't handle the HP.
->
-> Steve W. 637R
->
->
-> >From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
-> >Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
-> >To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
-> >Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] More Power
-> >Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 22:39:21 -0500
-> >
-> >I hear what you are saying Eric! There's a little "Texan" in all of
-> >us..HOWEVER....I'd sure be checking that those tailfeathers are still
there
-> >and securely attached before EVERY flight.
-> >
-> >Remember the Rebel was designed as an 80HP aircraft originally and then
the
-> >push was on to allow an O-235. Then some of us pushed that envelope
to an
-> >"unapproved" at the time O-320 x 150HP...then 160HP and now we're
talking
-> >180 and 195HP O-360's. It's not the weight that's at issue...it's the
prop
-> >blast from that HP/Torque that's sooner or later gonna make them little
-> >tail
-> >feathers say enough is enough...and I don't want to be riding with you
when
-> >they do.
-> >
-> >This is the fate of many a Supercub that was bumped up to an O-360 by
-> >STC...tailfeather failure.
-> >
-> >My 3 cents Canadian,
-> >Wayne
-> >
-> >----- Original Message -----
-> >From: <eric.r@dcsol.com>
-> >To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
-> >Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 10:01 PM
-> >Subject: [rebel-builders] More Power
-> >
-> >
-> > >I may be wrong, but most engineering is done to protect the ham-
fisted,
-> >and
-> > > I'll be installing the O-360 in my Rebel. Keeping the weight down
with
-> > > light
-> > > accessories, running a light weight fixed pitch prop, and balancing
any
-> >cg
-> > > issues with the Odyssey AGM battery placed wherever necessary ...
cables
-> > > and battery will be the last installed items.(Bogert low loss cables
do
-> > > work
-> > > wonders when they are needed). As far as the extra power: when
installed
-> > > weight is near the same, I'll take the torque every time! A quicker
-> >water
-> > > take-
-> > > off if really needed, and a little extra power in a climb-out over
-> > > obstacles or
-> > > mountains ... or should I dare say weather can come in handy. If I
can
-> >get
-> > > more power with the same weight (or close, or lighter than some O-
320
-> > > firewall forward applications), I'll just keep it available at my
-> > > fingertips.
-> > > Steve Wittman designed (or suggested) the little Continentals for his
-> > > tailwind,
-> > > yet he ran a big bore six cylinder Continental in his personal
airplane.
-> >I
-> > > understand the designers placing limits based on the average end-user
-> > > I'm not looking for more speed or Rocket climb performance, just a
-> >little
-> > > extra
-> > > juice when needed. The most fun and comfortable "just plain flying
here
-> > > and
-> > > there" airplane I operated was a Cessna 150 with the 150 conversion.
It
-> > > turned the little airplane into a useable mountain crosser!
-> > >
-> > >
-> > >
-> > >
-> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> > > List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
-> > > username "rebel" password "builder"
-> > > Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
-> > > List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> > >
-> > >
-> > >
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >-----------------------------------------------------------------
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-> > username "rebel" password "builder"
-> > Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
-> > List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> >-----------------------------------------------------------------
-> >
-> >
-> >
->
->
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see
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Hi Eric !

Well said !
"May I go at a ripe old age doing what I enjoy."

Sounds like you've done a good evaluation of the situation,
and are planning a sensible approach. Should work out fine.

I had the pleasure of doing the test flying on "the ultimate
Rebel" last year - it had an XP-360 that was balanced, polished,
ported, etc..... and dyno'd about 195 hp., as well as the McKenzie
STOL kit, Fife wing tips, and VG's !! The C of G was well within
limits, and the flying qualities were superb - a real delight
to fly, and safe as houses -- very gentle stall, and ridiculously
gentle spin !

There's no doubt the larger engines put a load on the tail
feathers - you only have to look at all the beef-ups needed
for the Moose ! The elevator end rib doublers, and the
semi-circular skin doublers on the elevators, as well as the
addition of the AIL-26 bushings, and perhaps a bit more
counterbalance weight have all helped strengthen the Rebel
tail, and are good mods for larger engines.

I would not use a Lycoming O-360 (too heavy), but the
Superior XP-360, with lightweight alternator, lightweight
starter, and dual Lightspeed electronic ignition - modules
mounted on the cockpit sidewalls - composite plenum, metal cowl,
and Prince prop all added up to a FWF weight that was LESS
than my O-320 with a Sensenich metal prop ! The whole setup
made a GREAT Rebel - I saw 2,300 fpm climb on warm summer days !

Sooooo - I think you are on the right track. With a bit of
care & caution, you will have a GREAT Rebel on amphibs !!

And you won't be alone - there are a few others going that
route right now ....

My next Rebel will be going the opposite way - I want a
nice, light Rebel with a Rotax 912-S, on 1500 amphibs, for
my "retirement Rebel" !! :-) ;-)

--
......bobp
http://www.prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Monday 01 January 2007 15:54, eric.r@dcsol.com wrote:

I knew I would get a rise with my post about the O-360 and Steve Wittman. I
also know that he died in the tailwind as a result of fabric coming unglued
from the wing surface. May I go at a ripe old age doing what I enjoy.
An O-360 at the same weight of an O-320 installation operated at lower
power settings will outlast the O-320 running at 75% and still have

that "war

emergency" power setting available in case of dire need. I'll put manifold
pressure and RPM red-lines for 160hp and live happily ever-after in the
knowledge that "it's in there" if I need it. I do know of some float pilots

up

there in Canada who "adjust" the prop governor on those 182's for when they
need a few extra rev's... Frank Robinson has been using bigger engines red-
lined for lower power in his helicopters from the beginning ... no heating
problems and they make TBO! (personal experience managing a fleet of
Robbies and Jet-Rangers ... also de-rated by the way ...resulted in no top
end problems in the Lycs in 2000 hrs).
Oh yeah: I'll watch my tail.
On 1/1/2007 9:15 AM, srwhitenect@hotmail.com wrote to rebel-builders:

-> I questioned the fitting of more HP with Murphy sometime ago and that
was
-> his main concern. Tail group won't handle the HP.
->
-> Steve W. 637R
->
->
-> >From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
-> >Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
-> >To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
-> >Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] More Power
-> >Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 22:39:21 -0500
-> >
-> >I hear what you are saying Eric! There's a little "Texan" in all of
-> >us..HOWEVER....I'd sure be checking that those tailfeathers are still

there

-> >and securely attached before EVERY flight.
-> >
-> >Remember the Rebel was designed as an 80HP aircraft originally and then
the
-> >push was on to allow an O-235. Then some of us pushed that envelope
to an
-> >"unapproved" at the time O-320 x 150HP...then 160HP and now we're
talking
-> >180 and 195HP O-360's. It's not the weight that's at issue...it's the

prop

-> >blast from that HP/Torque that's sooner or later gonna make them little
-> >tail
-> >feathers say enough is enough...and I don't want to be riding with you
when
-> >they do.
-> >
-> >This is the fate of many a Supercub that was bumped up to an O-360 by
-> >STC...tailfeather failure.
-> >
-> >My 3 cents Canadian,
-> >Wayne
-> >

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I believe that Murphy endorses engines in the power range up to 160 HP.
Mine has a 150hp 032 with a light weight starter in it and the firewall back 3"
per Murphy instructions.

This is the way the aircraft was partially built when I bought it. To do it over
again, I probably would do as Bob P described and go with the firewall as
designed and a Rotax to keep everything light. iF I build another one, I may
go that way.



On 1/1/2007 5:49 PM, beep@sympatico.ca wrote to rebel-builders:

->
-> Hi Eric !
->
-> Well said !
-> "May I go at a ripe old age doing what I enjoy."
->
-> Sounds like you've done a good evaluation of the situation,
-> and are planning a sensible approach. Should work out fine.
->
-> I had the pleasure of doing the test flying on "the ultimate
-> Rebel" last year - it had an XP-360 that was balanced, polished,
-> ported, etc..... and dyno'd about 195 hp., as well as the McKenzie
-> STOL kit, Fife wing tips, and VG's !! The C of G was well within
-> limits, and the flying qualities were superb - a real delight
-> to fly, and safe as houses -- very gentle stall, and ridiculously
-> gentle spin !
->
-> There's no doubt the larger engines put a load on the tail
-> feathers - you only have to look at all the beef-ups needed
-> for the Moose ! The elevator end rib doublers, and the
-> semi-circular skin doublers on the elevators, as well as the
-> addition of the AIL-26 bushings, and perhaps a bit more
-> counterbalance weight have all helped strengthen the Rebel
-> tail, and are good mods for larger engines.
->
-> I would not use a Lycoming O-360 (too heavy), but the
-> Superior XP-360, with lightweight alternator, lightweight
-> starter, and dual Lightspeed electronic ignition - modules
-> mounted on the cockpit sidewalls - composite plenum, metal cowl,
-> and Prince prop all added up to a FWF weight that was LESS
-> than my O-320 with a Sensenich metal prop ! The whole setup
-> made a GREAT Rebel - I saw 2,300 fpm climb on warm summer days !
->
-> Sooooo - I think you are on the right track. With a bit of
-> care & caution, you will have a GREAT Rebel on amphibs !!
->
-> And you won't be alone - there are a few others going that
-> route right now ....
->
-> My next Rebel will be going the opposite way - I want a
-> nice, light Rebel with a Rotax 912-S, on 1500 amphibs, for
-> my "retirement Rebel" !! :-) ;-)
->
-> --
-> ......bobp
-> http://www.prosumers.ca
-> http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
-> http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
->
-> -------------------------------orig.-------------------------
-> On Monday 01 January 2007 15:54, eric.r@dcsol.com wrote:
-> > I knew I would get a rise with my post about the O-360 and Steve
Wittman. I
-> > also know that he died in the tailwind as a result of fabric coming
unglued
-> > from the wing surface. May I go at a ripe old age doing what I enjoy.
-> > An O-360 at the same weight of an O-320 installation operated at
lower
-> > power settings will outlast the O-320 running at 75% and still have
-> that "war
-> > emergency" power setting available in case of dire need. I'll put manifold
-> > pressure and RPM red-lines for 160hp and live happily ever-after in the
-> > knowledge that "it's in there" if I need it. I do know of some float pilots
-> up
-> > there in Canada who "adjust" the prop governor on those 182's for when
they
-> > need a few extra rev's... Frank Robinson has been using bigger engines
red-
-> > lined for lower power in his helicopters from the beginning ... no heating
-> > problems and they make TBO! (personal experience managing a fleet of
-> > Robbies and Jet-Rangers ... also de-rated by the way ...resulted in no
top
-> > end problems in the Lycs in 2000 hrs).
-> > Oh yeah: I'll watch my tail.
-> > On 1/1/2007 9:15 AM, srwhitenect@hotmail.com wrote to rebel-builders:
-> >
-> > -> I questioned the fitting of more HP with Murphy sometime ago and
that
-> > was
-> > -> his main concern. Tail group won't handle the HP.
-> > ->
-> > -> Steve W. 637R
-> > ->
-> > ->
-> > -> >From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
-> > -> >Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
-> > -> >To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
-> > -> >Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] More Power
-> > -> >Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 22:39:21 -0500
-> > -> >
-> > -> >I hear what you are saying Eric! There's a little "Texan" in all of
-> > -> >us..HOWEVER....I'd sure be checking that those tailfeathers are still
-> there
-> > -> >and securely attached before EVERY flight.
-> > -> >
-> > -> >Remember the Rebel was designed as an 80HP aircraft originally and
then
-> > the
-> > -> >push was on to allow an O-235. Then some of us pushed that
envelope
-> > to an
-> > -> >"unapproved" at the time O-320 x 150HP...then 160HP and now
we're
-> > talking
-> > -> >180 and 195HP O-360's. It's not the weight that's at issue...it's the
-> prop
-> > -> >blast from that HP/Torque that's sooner or later gonna make them
little
-> > -> >tail
-> > -> >feathers say enough is enough...and I don't want to be riding with
you
-> > when
-> > -> >they do.
-> > -> >
-> > -> >This is the fate of many a Supercub that was bumped up to an O-
360 by
-> > -> >STC...tailfeather failure.
-> > -> >
-> > -> >My 3 cents Canadian,
-> > -> >Wayne
-> > -> >
->





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A three bladed prop might go easier on the tail feathers.
Unfortunately 4 cylinder 4 stroke engines have a torque reversal between
every power stroke which is why the 0-360 with its large cylinders has
been described as the shakiest engine out. So yes a mechanically and
power balanced engine would likely help as well...
Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:

Hi Eric !

Well said !
"May I go at a ripe old age doing what I enjoy."

Sounds like you've done a good evaluation of the situation,
and are planning a sensible approach. Should work out fine.

I had the pleasure of doing the test flying on "the ultimate
Rebel" last year - it had an XP-360 that was balanced, polished,
ported, etc..... and dyno'd about 195 hp., as well as the McKenzie
STOL kit, Fife wing tips, and VG's !! The C of G was well within
limits, and the flying qualities were superb - a real delight
to fly, and safe as houses -- very gentle stall, and ridiculously
gentle spin !

There's no doubt the larger engines put a load on the tail
feathers - you only have to look at all the beef-ups needed
for the Moose ! The elevator end rib doublers, and the
semi-circular skin doublers on the elevators, as well as the
addition of the AIL-26 bushings, and perhaps a bit more
counterbalance weight have all helped strengthen the Rebel
tail, and are good mods for larger engines.

I would not use a Lycoming O-360 (too heavy), but the
Superior XP-360, with lightweight alternator, lightweight
starter, and dual Lightspeed electronic ignition - modules
mounted on the cockpit sidewalls - composite plenum, metal cowl,
and Prince prop all added up to a FWF weight that was LESS
than my O-320 with a Sensenich metal prop ! The whole setup
made a GREAT Rebel - I saw 2,300 fpm climb on warm summer days !

Sooooo - I think you are on the right track. With a bit of
care & caution, you will have a GREAT Rebel on amphibs !!

And you won't be alone - there are a few others going that
route right now ....

My next Rebel will be going the opposite way - I want a
nice, light Rebel with a Rotax 912-S, on 1500 amphibs, for
my "retirement Rebel" !! :-) ;-)

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FWIW, I asked a Superior rep about the idea of runniing an xp-0360 at loaf
power settings in a Rebel, and he said there could be some concern about
getting some ring blow-by over time. Also, with the accepted practice of
needing to run at full power for ring seating in first few hours, this
would also be a concern to me. (Jumping right into a full power, full
speed test on a new airframe with more than recommended HP.)

Superior also offers an xp-0320 -- it is the same case and crank as the
xp-0360 but with smaller jugs, and overall (only) 7 lbs lighter.

-Ben/496R -- redoing my Fus-30. 2nd time's a charm?

An O-360 at the same weight of an O-320 installation operated at lower
power settings will outlast the O-320 running at 75% and still have

that "war

emergency" power setting available in case of dire need. I'll put manifold

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Are you really sure that "bigger is better"? Every people flying Rebel on
floats behind a 0-320 say they (the Rebels) are very good performer... and
may be a light Rebel behind a Rotax 914 will be a very very good performer.
May be you should sell your Rebel and buy a Yukon? I am sure someone will
asked for a 0-390 or the new 0-400 if you have some success with the
0-360... My less than 2 cents opinion..

Jean
Rebel 747R

Jean Poirier
Pr

The engine will be broken in on a proven airframe for at least ten to twenty
hours, and more like 50 hrs.The ""rattling rings syndrome" as I understand it
can occur when the prop is driving the engine, and I don't even buy that
theory. I'm not talking about "loafing power". but more like 135 to 145 HP vs.
112 to 120 HP settings; Well within the 150/160HP "allowed" by the builder as
a maximum. The O-390 and O-400 is a whole different animal that will be
expensive and too heavy although someone will try it sooner or later. Stock
compression O-360 with all the "light-right stuff", and a cam profile just right
for the rpm settings desired ... that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

On 1/3/2007 10:37 AM, bransom wrote to beep@sympatico.ca:

-> FWIW, I asked a Superior rep about the idea of runniing an xp-0360 at loaf
-> power settings in a Rebel, and he said there could be some concern about
-> getting some ring blow-by over time. Also, with the accepted practice of
-> needing to run at full power for ring seating in first few hours, this
-> would also be a concern to me. (Jumping right into a full power, full
-> speed test on a new airframe with more than recommended HP.)
->
-> Superior also offers an xp-0320 -- it is the same case and crank as the
-> xp-0360 but with smaller jugs, and overall (only) 7 lbs lighter.
->






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