The Murphy Builders Site

I can't help with adjusting the speed cowl but I thought I'd point out that
I have heard repeatedly that the rule of thumb for inlet/outlet sizing is
that the outlet should be 1.5 times the inlet size. 10% bigger will
probably not cut it. Sorry, this probably makes your cowl fit problem even
worse.

Mike
044SR

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
indabush@hay.net
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 8:12 PM
To: Rebel Digest,
Subject: [rebel-builders] Speed Cowling

Need some advise please ....................

I am just starting to fit the MAM speed cowling around my O-320. The
problem is this. The air inlet openings are about 70 square inches in
total. The air outlet is only about 18 sq. in. when the bottom cowling is
tight against the bottom of the firewall. Unfortunately, the outlet
opening needs to be bigger than the inlet - let's say 10% bigger or 77 sq
in.

The only way I can figure to solve this problem is to perform a major
rework on the bottom cowling, creating an opening about 3" high by about
25" wide. Having far...d around for hours with the other fiberglass
pieces, this is not my first choice. I thought of just lowering the
cowling at the firewall enough to create the larger opening, unfortunately
this would result in the front flange of the cowling not be in-line with
the spinner and the top half. There is enough material to do the this,
but the back edge of the cowling needs to be flush against the bottom of
the firewall to fit properly at the front.

Any suggestions?

Mike Ash



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Hi Mike !

You are correct - I don't know ANYBODY who got a 'speed cowl'
to cool properly without a LOT of modification ! One successful
installation I saw was created by installing rectangular spacers
of about 2" depth under the fuselage at the firewall, to support
the bottom rear of the cowl. This greatly increased the opening.
Not sure how he handled the front - perhaps he dropped it too, and
added material to fill the gap behind the prop - could be flat
aluminum there - or, cut the front & re-angled it .... If you
don't like fiberglass work, you could make an aluminum bottom
cowl. (I chucked my speed cowl & replaced it with a Thorp T-18
nosebowl and 4 door alum. cowl - much easier to pre-flight &
engine work, as well as much better cooling. See pics in File Archives )

You definitely want the bottom back of the cowl to end at least
a couple of inches behind the firewall to get good airflow out
of the cowl.

It's also very good to round off the lip at the bottom of the
firewall, by running a strip of .020 all the way across the bottom
of the fuse, and wrapping it up to about 4 or 5" above the bottom
of the firewall - easiest to do before you get all the stuff
mounted on the firewall... All the RV's do this - it gains them
about 10 mph on cruise. We won't see that on a Rebel, but you
will get about 20 degrees cooler heads !

You could also make a large drop-down cowl flap on the bottom,
similar to the one on my 4 door metal cowl - with side supports
with 3 or 4 holes for reducing the opening in winter. Again,
be sure it extends a few inches BEHIND the firewall, or you will
get turbulence and no cooling air flow ...

--
......bobp
http://www.prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Monday 27 November 2006 12:11 am, indabush@hay.net wrote:

Need some advise please ....................

I am just starting to fit the MAM speed cowling around my O-320. The
problem is this. The air inlet openings are about 70 square inches in
total. The air outlet is only about 18 sq. in. when the bottom cowling is
tight against the bottom of the firewall. Unfortunately, the outlet
opening needs to be bigger than the inlet - let's say 10% bigger or 77 sq
in.

The only way I can figure to solve this problem is to perform a major
rework on the bottom cowling, creating an opening about 3" high by about
25" wide. Having far...d around for hours with the other fiberglass
pieces, this is not my first choice. I thought of just lowering the
cowling at the firewall enough to create the larger opening, unfortunately
this would result in the front flange of the cowling not be in-line with
the spinner and the top half. There is enough material to do the this,
but the back edge of the cowling needs to be flush against the bottom of
the firewall to fit properly at the front.

Any suggestions?

Mike Ash

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There's been lots of discussion on this topic in the archives. I use the speed cowl on my 150 hp 0320 Rebel, and definitely had cooling issues in the past.

My first mods were to get to the 1.5 ratio outlet, and after a couple of interations, had it cooling OK on wheels. However, as soon as I went to amphibs, I again had a cooling problem, and had to do a couple more iterations. I progressively increased the outlet to where it far exceeded that 1.5 ratio but I then did achieve marginally acceptable cooling. However, on hotter days (+30C or 90F), I still was not able to climb continuously without backing off the throttle a couple times to avoid exceeding 450F CHT's. And cruise was often still over 400F. I even had a little lexan eyebrow on the top of the left inlet, which also helped a little bit. I probably had about 4 or 5 interations of my cooling outlet in total, and definitely reached a limit where making it bigger or other improvements would not help any further.

So finally after noting how much larger all the Cessna and Piper inlets were, I bit the bullet and increased the inlets just slightly. I curved the upper inside portions higher towards the prop flange, so that no visibility was sacrificed on the outsides, and was also happy with the new appearance (more aggressive looking nose, JMHO).

That change made the biggest difference of anything I had done previously, and completely solved all my cooling issues. No more step climbing now, even in the hottest weather, and cruise is always below 400F, and normally around 370. I even have to keep my oil cooler taped off partialy except for a short time in the summer during the hottest days. When I get a chance, I will again change my outlet, but this time to make it smaller, as I don't believe it needs to be that large now with the bigger inlets.

Anyway, that was my experience, FWIW.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca>
Date: Monday, November 27, 2006 8:57 am
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Speed Cowling

Hi Mike !

You are correct - I don't know ANYBODY who got a 'speed cowl'
to cool properly without a LOT of modification ! One successful
installation I saw was created by installing rectangular spacers
of about 2" depth under the fuselage at the firewall, to support
the bottom rear of the cowl. This greatly increased the opening.
Not sure how he handled the front - perhaps he dropped it too, and
added material to fill the gap behind the prop - could be flat
aluminum there - or, cut the front & re-angled it .... If you
don't like fiberglass work, you could make an aluminum bottom
cowl. (I chucked my speed cowl & replaced it with a Thorp T-18
nosebowl and 4 door alum. cowl - much easier to pre-flight &
engine work, as well as much better cooling. See pics in File
Archives )

You definitely want the bottom back of the cowl to end at least
a couple of inches behind the firewall to get good airflow out
of the cowl.

It's also very good to round off the lip at the bottom of the
firewall, by running a strip of .020 all the way across the bottom
of the fuse, and wrapping it up to about 4 or 5" above the bottom
of the firewall - easiest to do before you get all the stuff
mounted on the firewall... All the RV's do this - it gains them
about 10 mph on cruise. We won't see that on a Rebel, but you
will get about 20 degrees cooler heads !

You could also make a large drop-down cowl flap on the bottom,
similar to the one on my 4 door metal cowl - with side supports
with 3 or 4 holes for reducing the opening in winter. Again,
be sure it extends a few inches BEHIND the firewall, or you will
get turbulence and no cooling air flow ...

--
......bobp
http://www.prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Monday 27 November 2006 12:11 am, indabush@hay.net wrote:

Need some advise please ....................

I am just starting to fit the MAM speed cowling around my O-320.

The

problem is this. The air inlet openings are about 70 square

inches in

total. The air outlet is only about 18 sq. in. when the bottom

cowling is

tight against the bottom of the firewall. Unfortunately, the

outlet

opening needs to be bigger than the inlet - let's say 10% bigger

or 77 sq

in.

The only way I can figure to solve this problem is to perform a

major

rework on the bottom cowling, creating an opening about 3" high

by about

25" wide. Having far...d around for hours with the other

fiberglass

pieces, this is not my first choice. I thought of just lowering

the

cowling at the firewall enough to create the larger opening,

unfortunately

this would result in the front flange of the cowling not be in-

line with

the spinner and the top half. There is enough material to do

the this,

but the back edge of the cowling needs to be flush against the

bottom of

the firewall to fit properly at the front.

Any suggestions?

Mike Ash

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Go get-um Walter!

I can attest to Your now cool CHT's as I have had the privilege of following you on your non stop climbs to 9,000 feet over the Canadian interior on 100'F days while my stock speed cowl CHT's are peaking at 450'F and you are slowly disappearing from few. I believe the answer to the CHT question is to open up the inlet as Walter described and 1.5 outlet air.

Bruce


-----Original Message-----

From: WALTER KLATT <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
Sent: Nov 27, 2006 5:26 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Speed Cowling

There's been lots of discussion on this topic in the archives. I use the speed cowl on my 150 hp 0320 Rebel, and definitely had cooling issues in the past.

My first mods were to get to the 1.5 ratio outlet, and after a couple of interations, had it cooling OK on wheels. However, as soon as I went to amphibs, I again had a cooling problem, and had to do a couple more iterations. I progressively increased the outlet to where it far exceeded that 1.5 ratio but I then did achieve marginally acceptable cooling. However, on hotter days (+30C or 90F), I still was not able to climb continuously without backing off the throttle a couple times to avoid exceeding 450F CHT's. And cruise was often still over 400F. I even had a little lexan eyebrow on the top of the left inlet, which also helped a little bit. I probably had about 4 or 5 interations of my cooling outlet in total, and definitely reached a limit where making it bigger or other improvements would not help any further.

So finally after noting how much larger all the Cessna and Piper inlets were, I bit the bullet and increased the inlets just slightly. I curved the upper inside portions higher towards the prop flange, so that no visibility was sacrificed on the outsides, and was also happy with the new appearance (more aggressive looking nose, JMHO).

That change made the biggest difference of anything I had done previously, and completely solved all my cooling issues. No more step climbing now, even in the hottest weather, and cruise is always below 400F, and normally around 370. I even have to keep my oil cooler taped off partialy except for a short time in the summer during the hottest days. When I get a chance, I will again change my outlet, but this time to make it smaller, as I don't believe it needs to be that large now with the bigger inlets.

Anyway, that was my experience, FWIW.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca>
Date: Monday, November 27, 2006 8:57 am
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Speed Cowling

Hi Mike !

You are correct - I don't know ANYBODY who got a 'speed cowl'
to cool properly without a LOT of modification ! One successful
installation I saw was created by installing rectangular spacers
of about 2" depth under the fuselage at the firewall, to support
the bottom rear of the cowl. This greatly increased the opening.
Not sure how he handled the front - perhaps he dropped it too, and
added material to fill the gap behind the prop - could be flat
aluminum there - or, cut the front & re-angled it .... If you
don't like fiberglass work, you could make an aluminum bottom
cowl. (I chucked my speed cowl & replaced it with a Thorp T-18
nosebowl and 4 door alum. cowl - much easier to pre-flight &
engine work, as well as much better cooling. See pics in File
Archives )

You definitely want the bottom back of the cowl to end at least
a couple of inches behind the firewall to get good airflow out
of the cowl.

It's also very good to round off the lip at the bottom of the
firewall, by running a strip of .020 all the way across the bottom
of the fuse, and wrapping it up to about 4 or 5" above the bottom
of the firewall - easiest to do before you get all the stuff
mounted on the firewall... All the RV's do this - it gains them
about 10 mph on cruise. We won't see that on a Rebel, but you
will get about 20 degrees cooler heads !

You could also make a large drop-down cowl flap on the bottom,
similar to the one on my 4 door metal cowl - with side supports
with 3 or 4 holes for reducing the opening in winter. Again,
be sure it extends a few inches BEHIND the firewall, or you will
get turbulence and no cooling air flow ...

--
......bobp
http://www.prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Monday 27 November 2006 12:11 am, indabush@hay.net wrote:

Need some advise please ....................

I am just starting to fit the MAM speed cowling around my O-320.

The

problem is this. The air inlet openings are about 70 square

inches in

total. The air outlet is only about 18 sq. in. when the bottom

cowling is

tight against the bottom of the firewall. Unfortunately, the

outlet

opening needs to be bigger than the inlet - let's say 10% bigger

or 77 sq

in.

The only way I can figure to solve this problem is to perform a

major

rework on the bottom cowling, creating an opening about 3" high

by about

25" wide. Having far...d around for hours with the other

fiberglass

pieces, this is not my first choice. I thought of just lowering

the

cowling at the firewall enough to create the larger opening,

unfortunately

this would result in the front flange of the cowling not be in-

line with

the spinner and the top half. There is enough material to do

the this,

but the back edge of the cowling needs to be flush against the

bottom of

the firewall to fit properly at the front.

Any suggestions?

Mike Ash

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There are a number of pics under Elite Cowling.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: <indabush@hay.net>
To: "Rebel Digest, " <rebel-builders-d@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 7:25 AM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Speed Cowling

Thanks for input. I should have done the research before I bought the
cowling in the first place. Maybe Darryl will give me my money back.
Arrrgggghhhh!

What I couldn't find in the archives were any pictures of the modified
speed cowl (inlet and outlet). I think I am developing a plan, but I need
a visual. Anybody have some pics handy?

Mike Ash

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On Monday 27 November 2006 12:11 am, indabush@hay.net wrote:

Need some advise please ....................

I am just starting to fit the MAM speed cowling around my O-320.

The

problem is this. The air inlet openings are about 70 square

inches in

total. The air outlet is only about 18 sq. in. when the bottom

cowling is

tight against the bottom of the firewall. Unfortunately, the

outlet

opening needs to be bigger than the inlet - let's say 10% bigger

or 77 sq

in.

The only way I can figure to solve this problem is to perform a

major

rework on the bottom cowling, creating an opening about 3" high

by about

25" wide. Having far...d around for hours with the other

fiberglass

pieces, this is not my first choice. I thought of just lowering

the

cowling at the firewall enough to create the larger opening,

unfortunately

this would result in the front flange of the cowling not be in-

line with

the spinner and the top half. There is enough material to do

the this,

but the back edge of the cowling needs to be flush against the

bottom of

the firewall to fit properly at the front.

Any suggestions?

Mike Ash

Hi Mike I could come over with my sawzall and we could make your speed cowl
into a nice 2 peice nosebowl:o)
Drew



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Just a thought, but take a look at how the grumman tiger / cheetah cowlings
use two air exit ramps to get the air out of the cowl while fitting tight to the
firewall. They also are "drawing" the air directly below the cylinders which
should, and does work quite well. The exhaust exits through it's own faired
exit hole, when properly faired creates another low pressure area to pull out
the hot airaround the pipe.

On 11/27/2006 7:57 AM, beep@sympatico.ca wrote to rebel-builders:

->
-> Hi Mike !
->
-> You are correct - I don't know ANYBODY who got a 'speed cowl'
-> to cool properly without a LOT of modification ! One successful
-> installation I saw was created by installing rectangular spacers
-> of about 2" depth under the fuselage at the firewall, to support
-> the bottom rear of the cowl. This greatly increased the opening.
-> Not sure how he handled the front - perhaps he dropped it too, and
-> added material to fill the gap behind the prop - could be flat
-> aluminum there - or, cut the front & re-angled it .... If you
-> don't like fiberglass work, you could make an aluminum bottom
-> cowl. (I chucked my speed cowl & replaced it with a Thorp T-18
-> nosebowl and 4 door alum. cowl - much easier to pre-flight &
-> engine work, as well as much better cooling. See pics in File Archives )
->
-> You definitely want the bottom back of the cowl to end at least
-> a couple of inches behind the firewall to get good airflow out
-> of the cowl.
->
-> It's also very good to round off the lip at the bottom of the
-> firewall, by running a strip of .020 all the way across the bottom
-> of the fuse, and wrapping it up to about 4 or 5" above the bottom
-> of the firewall - easiest to do before you get all the stuff
-> mounted on the firewall... All the RV's do this - it gains them
-> about 10 mph on cruise. We won't see that on a Rebel, but you
-> will get about 20 degrees cooler heads !
->
-> You could also make a large drop-down cowl flap on the bottom,
-> similar to the one on my 4 door metal cowl - with side supports
-> with 3 or 4 holes for reducing the opening in winter. Again,
-> be sure it extends a few inches BEHIND the firewall, or you will
-> get turbulence and no cooling air flow ...
->
-> --
-> ......bobp
-> http://www.prosumers.ca
-> http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
-> http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
->
-> -------------------------------orig.-------------------------
-> On Monday 27 November 2006 12:11 am, indabush@hay.net wrote:
-> > Need some advise please ....................
-> >
-> > I am just starting to fit the MAM speed cowling around my O-320. The
-> > problem is this. The air inlet openings are about 70 square inches in
-> > total. The air outlet is only about 18 sq. in. when the bottom cowling is
-> > tight against the bottom of the firewall. Unfortunately, the outlet
-> > opening needs to be bigger than the inlet - let's say 10% bigger or 77 sq
-> > in.
-> >
-> > The only way I can figure to solve this problem is to perform a major
-> > rework on the bottom cowling, creating an opening about 3" high by
about
-> > 25" wide. Having far...d around for hours with the other fiberglass
-> > pieces, this is not my first choice. I thought of just lowering the
-> > cowling at the firewall enough to create the larger opening,
unfortunately
-> > this would result in the front flange of the cowling not be in-line with
-> > the spinner and the top half. There is enough material to do the this,
-> > but the back edge of the cowling needs to be flush against the bottom
of
-> > the firewall to fit properly at the front.
-> >
-> > Any suggestions?
-> >
-> > Mike Ash
-> >
->
->





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I certainly endorse Walter's remarks on the inlet. I hadn't said much,
because my installation is an O360 on the Elite, on amphibs - so just
about everything in my favour is against me, but when I increased the
intake area 50% (on the top edge, though Sean White was also successful
lowering the bottom edge, the problems disappeared, and I was even able
to dispense with the baffles behind the spinner.

Al






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If you like the looks, I wouldn't give up on the speed cowl just yet. I know many here might disagree, but I would still pick the speed cowl if I did it again, especially now that I know how to make it work.

Bruce Georgian on this list did a really nice job of adding multiple doors to his speed cowl, which basically gives many of the same benefits of the alumimum ones with the separate nose bowls. That's one thing I would change on mine.

I had a peek at the archive files, and thought there were pics of mine there, but couldn't find them. I would only look at my inlets as examples, as there are many other better examples on how to do the bottom exits.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: indabush@hay.net
Date: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 8:25 am
Subject: [rebel-builders] Speed Cowling

Thanks for input. I should have done the research before I bought
the
cowling in the first place. Maybe Darryl will give me my money
back.
Arrrgggghhhh!

What I couldn't find in the archives were any pictures of the
modified
speed cowl (inlet and outlet). I think I am developing a plan, but
I need
a visual. Anybody have some pics handy?

Mike Ash



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Walter,
WHENEVER I get to the point of needing a cowl I plan
on using the speed cowl also. I think it really makes
the Rebel look much nicer. Unless of course if I end
up using that Rotec Radial. :) I will keep you in mind
for anyadvice when I get that far.

Keith R661
--- WALTER KLATT <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca> wrote:

If you like the looks, I wouldn't give up on the
speed cowl just yet. I know many here might
disagree, but I would still pick the speed cowl if I
did it again, especially now that I know how to make
it work.

Bruce Georgian on this list did a really nice job of
adding multiple doors to his speed cowl, which
basically gives many of the same benefits of the
alumimum ones with the separate nose bowls. That's
one thing I would change on mine.

I had a peek at the archive files, and thought there
were pics of mine there, but couldn't find them. I
would only look at my inlets as examples, as there
are many other better examples on how to do the
bottom exits.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: indabush@hay.net
Date: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 8:25 am
Subject: [rebel-builders] Speed Cowling

Thanks for input. I should have done the research

before I bought

the
cowling in the first place. Maybe Darryl will give

me my money

back.
Arrrgggghhhh!

What I couldn't find in the archives were any

pictures of the

modified
speed cowl (inlet and outlet). I think I am

developing a plan, but

I need
a visual. Anybody have some pics handy?

Mike Ash

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Mike,

The speed cowl looks better in my opinion, you just have to tweak it to make it better. I have been flying a non-modified speed cowl on 1800 amphibs for several years now, so it works OK without the mods too. In the summer time I have to shorten my climbs. Cut some hinged doors on each side in the top half for easy access and inspection. I had pictures in the archives years ago before they got lost.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----

From: indabush@hay.net
Sent: Nov 28, 2006 11:25 AM
To: "Rebel Digest, " <rebel-builders-d@dcsol.com>
Subject: [rebel-builders] Speed Cowling G

Thanks for input. I should have done the research before I bought the
cowling in the first place. Maybe Darryl will give me my money back.
Arrrgggghhhh!

What I couldn't find in the archives were any pictures of the modified
speed cowl (inlet and outlet). I think I am developing a plan, but I need
a visual. Anybody have some pics handy?

Mike Ash



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