Baffles

[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Rick Harper, I saw your plea for help on the archives. I wouldn't worry about your lack of baffles plates in one tank (to the extent of opening the tanks to install anyway). Lots of welded tanks and rubber bladder tanks out there without any baffles inside.

My 2 cents,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

[Keith B. Oliver]

I was just looking over the baffle kit I received from Van's. It is a work
of art. The quality of the materials and the details of the instructions are
excellent (10+ pages). It is entirely complete. It makes what I received
from Murphy look very poor indeed. It also make me wonder if maybe some of
the heat problems people had/have/having are possibly due to lack of
attention in this area,
Has anyone, besides Murray Cherkas and myself seen this kit or am I just
easily impressed?

Keith Oliver
kboliver@adelphia.net
Elite #654 TD
N654ME (reserved)
Farmingdale, Maine








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[Lonnie Benson]

Keith,

I just looked at the Van's Accessories Catalog and noticed that they have
two different kits for the O-320, the BAF-4-320 and the BAF-6-320. How did
you know which kit to order? I would assume that it would be the BAF-6-320.
Is that right?

Lonnie
Rebel 171

----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith B. Oliver" <kboliver@adelphia.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 9:10 PM
Subject: baffles

I was just looking over the baffle kit I received from Van's. It is a work
of art. The quality of the materials and the details of the instructions

are

excellent (10+ pages). It is entirely complete. It makes what I received
from Murphy look very poor indeed. It also make me wonder if maybe some of
the heat problems people had/have/having are possibly due to lack of
attention in this area,
Has anyone, besides Murray Cherkas and myself seen this kit or am I just
easily impressed?

Keith Oliver
kboliver@adelphia.net
Elite #654 TD
N654ME (reserved)
Farmingdale, Maine

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[Keith B. Oliver]

That's the one I ordered. It is for their newer models which have a cowl
that looks pretty close to MAM's speed cowl
It will need a little tweaking but I am sure it will work fine for me

Keith Oliver
kboliver@adelphia.net
Elite #654 TD
N654ME (reserved)
Farmingdale, Maine




-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Lonnie Benson
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 7:28 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: baffles


Keith,

I just looked at the Van's Accessories Catalog and noticed that they have
two different kits for the O-320, the BAF-4-320 and the BAF-6-320. How did
you know which kit to order? I would assume that it would be the BAF-6-320.
Is that right?

Lonnie
Rebel 171

----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith B. Oliver" <kboliver@adelphia.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 9:10 PM
Subject: baffles

I was just looking over the baffle kit I received from Van's. It is a work
of art. The quality of the materials and the details of the instructions

are

excellent (10+ pages). It is entirely complete. It makes what I received
from Murphy look very poor indeed. It also make me wonder if maybe some of
the heat problems people had/have/having are possibly due to lack of
attention in this area,
Has anyone, besides Murray Cherkas and myself seen this kit or am I just
easily impressed?

Keith Oliver
kboliver@adelphia.net
Elite #654 TD
N654ME (reserved)
Farmingdale, Maine

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[Drew Dalgleish]

At 09:10 PM 10/8/2003 -0400, you wrote:

I was just looking over the baffle kit I received from Van's. It is a work
of art. The quality of the materials and the details of the instructions are
excellent (10+ pages). It is entirely complete. It makes what I received
from Murphy look very poor indeed. It also make me wonder if maybe some of
the heat problems people had/have/having are possibly due to lack of
attention in this area,
Has anyone, besides Murray Cherkas and myself seen this kit or am I just
easily impressed?

Keith Oliver
kboliver@adelphia.net
Elite #654 TD
N654ME (reserved)
Farmingdale, Maine

No doubt about it Keith. There's an RV6A under construction in the hangar
beside me and the quality of the baffle kit is outstanding. I reworked a
set of tri-pacer baffles from the plane I canibalised and the piper parts
are no where near the qualoty of Van's
Drew Dalgleish




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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Keith !

Several of us have used the Van's baffle kits - they
really are beautiful ! Unfortunately, the cooling problems
come with the "speed cowl", and the baffling doesn't solve
them - fortunately, this group IS finding ways to cool well.
(Right, Walter ?? )
......bobp

---------------------------------orig.---------------------------
At 09:10 PM 10/8/03 -0400, you wrote:

I was just looking over the baffle kit I received from Van's. It is a work
of art. The quality of the materials and the details of the instructions are
excellent (10+ pages). It is entirely complete. It makes what I received
from Murphy look very poor indeed. It also make me wonder if maybe some of
the heat problems people had/have/having are possibly due to lack of
attention in this area,
Has anyone, besides Murray Cherkas and myself seen this kit or am I just
easily impressed?

Keith Oliver
kboliver@adelphia.net
Elite #654 TD
N654ME (reserved)
Farmingdale, Maine








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[rebel]

Hey I thought that big bump on the bottom of Walter's cowl was where he
warmed his tv dinners. You are right on track with the thought that you need
bigger inlets. On the last two Elites that I built I left one stock and
increased the Inlet size buy cutting the lower lip of the inlet open buy 1"
on the second one. This may not sound like much but when you work it out you
are adding about 13 square inches to the inlet area or about 20% more. This
dropped the CHT buy 65-70 degrees climb at 403 and cruise at 360 on a 50
degree day and kept the oil temp at 170 this was with the stock cooler on the
fire wall with the 3" scat hose and this was with a brand new 0-360 on it's
first flight. A cowled engine relies on a preesure differential from the
inlet to the outlet to flow the air over the cooling surfaces so continued
opening of the bottom cowl stops helping and just gets ugly. Go measure the
inlet on a 172 with an 0-320 and you will see how large they are compared to
the Murphy cowls. It is easier to make up some plates to attach to the front
of the cowl in cold weather than cook and rebuild your engine. You would be
suprised at how small the outlet is I made it 150% of the inlet and glasaed
on a nice 1" flange along the whole of the outlet area. This Elite lives in
Reno Navada and has zero heat problems. Many feel this may cause more drag
but this is not the case as speed increases and the pressure builds any
excess air spills out around the inlet and over the cowl like the bow wave on
a boat. How do you do it? Simple fit you cowl to the aircraft with all of the
pins and screws or how ever you are going to do it. Now measure down 1" on
the lower surface 1" blending in the coners. Now take two small pieces of
blue or pink foam insulationand fit them to the inside of the cowl you may
sand it with 100 grit sand paper to make it fit nice. Make sure that you put
a nice radius on the front edge to match the chunk you cut away when you like
them glue them in place with some 5 minute epoxy. Time to glass buy some
epoxy resin like West System www.westsystem.com this can be found at marinas
and hooby shops. use 4 or 6 oz. cloth the same stuff you make the windshield
retainer out of works fine. Put two neat layers on and let it cure over
night. Now pick the foam out of the back side when you have it down to the
last few crumbs you can was them away with a little MEK don't try to melt the
foam out in one shot it makes a mess and don't use gas as it has oil in it.
Now sabd the inside until it is smooth and apply 4 more layers of cloth on
the back side again let it dry over night. The last thing to do is sand and
fill the outside to make to make it look good. As for the outlet start with
the 150% rule buy cutting a nice opening a little bigger won't hurt but stay
under 175% as any larger does nothing. To Glass the flange on I tape poster
board along the back edge and tape it to the inside of the cowl You will want
to angle the flange back a bit I go between 70-80 degrees to the bottom of
the cowl. Grind away the gelcoat 2" all around the outlet before you tape the
poster board on. Again start with two layers of glass cloth on the out side
and run it up at least 2" and let it dry overnightn Now peel the tape and as
much poster board of as you can the last bit of paper can be easly removed
buy wetting it and sanding it of with some 100 grit when the area is clean
apply 2-3 more layers. When it is dry cut the flange dow to 1" then sand and
fill. Put a crank seal baffle in I to use the Van's baffles but I just buy
the $7 dollar templates also seal any leaks in the baffle the stock inter
cylinder baffles fro Lycoming fit lke crap goop them up with high temp
silicon. I shine a light up from the bottom and if I see daylight through
anything but the cooling fins I seal it up with metal or high temp silicon.
If for some strange reson it is still hot rework the inlets again. Remember
good pressure differential equals goods cooling air flow. The last thing to
check is the the area around the carb air filter is sealed up as tight as you
can make it wit baffle seal as this is a prime spot that lets the high
pressure ram air into the nice low pressure are you are trying to create on
the botton side of the engine which defeats the nice increased pressure
differential you have been trying to create. This may all sound hard to do
but really only takes about 8-10 hours and you can fly it when it still look
rough to test it before you paint. Good luck

Sean White
Kitplane Solutions Inc.
Kingston ON.



On 10/9/2003 6:53 PM, WALTER.KLATT@SHAW.CA wrote to MURPHY-REBEL:

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[10.0.141.179])
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-> 09 Oct 2003 20:26:38 -0600 (MDT)
-> Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 19:26:32 -0700
-> From: Walter Klatt <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
-> Subject: RE: baffles
-> In-reply-to: <15a.25d71ca9.2cb75f6e@aol.com>
-> To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
-> Message-id: <PFEOJDIIGOHLFACHDMDNCEPJCIAA.Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
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->
-> Yup, that's basically it. It's not the prettiest, but
-> at least is marginally acceptable now. That lexan
-> eyebrow on the left inlet helped, too. I flew in the
-> hottest weather this summer, and lots of long, hard,
-> heavily loaded climbs over the mountains, and it did
-> work. However, I would still like to cool it about 20
-> more degrees if I could. But without enlarging the
-> inlets, there is nothing more that I know to try. I
-> have already done what's been discussed here and more.
-> And yes, after about the 4th enlargement, it was that
-> big hole that helped the most.
->
-> Walter
->
-> > -----Original Message-----
-> > From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> > [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
-> > Legeorgen@aol.com
-> > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 6:04 PM
-> > To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
-> > Subject: Re: baffles
-> >
-> >
-> > Walter managed to cool his 0320...he just
-> > cut the bottom of his speed cowl
-> > out. Well, almost anyway. If you take a look
-> > under his cowl there is this gaping
-> > hole with a flared lip that just kept
-> > getting bigger and bigger. Right
-> > Walter? He keeps telling me I'll have to do
-> > the same to mine after I get it on
-> > floats. He might be right.
-> >
-> > Bruce 357R
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > *--------------------------------------------
-> > -----------------------------*
-> > To unsubscribe from this list go to:
-> > https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
-> > Archives located at
-> > https://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com/default.htm
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-> > mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> > *--------------------------------------------
-> > -----------------------------*
-> >
-> >
-> >
->




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[Walter Klatt]

Yup, that's basically it. It's not the prettiest, but
at least is marginally acceptable now. That lexan
eyebrow on the left inlet helped, too. I flew in the
hottest weather this summer, and lots of long, hard,
heavily loaded climbs over the mountains, and it did
work. However, I would still like to cool it about 20
more degrees if I could. But without enlarging the
inlets, there is nothing more that I know to try. I
have already done what's been discussed here and more.
And yes, after about the 4th enlargement, it was that
big hole that helped the most.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Legeorgen@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 6:04 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: baffles


Walter managed to cool his 0320...he just
cut the bottom of his speed cowl
out. Well, almost anyway. If you take a look
under his cowl there is this gaping
hole with a flared lip that just kept
getting bigger and bigger. Right
Walter? He keeps telling me I'll have to do
the same to mine after I get it on
floats. He might be right.

Bruce 357R



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[Walter Klatt]

Sean, you're the first that I have heard that has
increased the inlet size and confirmed that works. As
you say, I've also noticed how big the Cessna inlets
are compared to ours.

The only question I have is why the bottoms and not the
tops. Wouldn't larger top openings provide more direct
inflow into the cowl and perhaps less drag? I do
realize you might lose some of the visibility benefits
of the speed cowl.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
rebel@dcsol.com
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 9:03 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: baffles


Hey I thought that big bump on the bottom of
Walter's cowl was where he
warmed his tv dinners. You are right on
track with the thought that you need
bigger inlets. On the last two Elites that I
built I left one stock and
increased the Inlet size buy cutting the
lower lip of the inlet open buy 1"
on the second one. This may not sound like
much but when you work it out you
are adding about 13 square inches to the
inlet area or about 20% more. This
dropped the CHT buy 65-70 degrees climb at
403 and cruise at 360 on a 50
degree day and kept the oil temp at 170 this
was with the stock cooler on the
fire wall with the 3" scat hose and this was
with a brand new 0-360 on it's
first flight. A cowled engine relies on a
preesure differential from the
inlet to the outlet to flow the air over the
cooling surfaces so continued
opening of the bottom cowl stops helping and
just gets ugly. Go measure the
inlet on a 172 with an 0-320 and you will
see how large they are compared to
the Murphy cowls. It is easier to make up
some plates to attach to the front
of the cowl in cold weather than cook and
rebuild your engine. You would be
suprised at how small the outlet is I made
it 150% of the inlet and glasaed
on a nice 1" flange along the whole of the
outlet area. This Elite lives in
Reno Navada and has zero heat problems. Many
feel this may cause more drag
but this is not the case as speed increases
and the pressure builds any
excess air spills out around the inlet and
over the cowl like the bow wave on
a boat. How do you do it? Simple fit you
cowl to the aircraft with all of the
pins and screws or how ever you are going to
do it. Now measure down 1" on
the lower surface 1" blending in the coners.
Now take two small pieces of
blue or pink foam insulationand fit them to
the inside of the cowl you may
sand it with 100 grit sand paper to make it
fit nice. Make sure that you put
a nice radius on the front edge to match the
chunk you cut away when you like
them glue them in place with some 5 minute
epoxy. Time to glass buy some
epoxy resin like West System
www.westsystem.com this can be found at marinas
and hooby shops. use 4 or 6 oz. cloth the
same stuff you make the windshield
retainer out of works fine. Put two neat
layers on and let it cure over
night. Now pick the foam out of the back
side when you have it down to the
last few crumbs you can was them away with a
little MEK don't try to melt the
foam out in one shot it makes a mess and
don't use gas as it has oil in it.
Now sabd the inside until it is smooth and
apply 4 more layers of cloth on
the back side again let it dry over night.
The last thing to do is sand and
fill the outside to make to make it look
good. As for the outlet start with
the 150% rule buy cutting a nice opening a
little bigger won't hurt but stay
under 175% as any larger does nothing. To
Glass the flange on I tape poster
board along the back edge and tape it to the
inside of the cowl You will want
to angle the flange back a bit I go between
70-80 degrees to the bottom of
the cowl. Grind away the gelcoat 2" all
around the outlet before you tape the
poster board on. Again start with two layers
of glass cloth on the out side
and run it up at least 2" and let it dry
overnightn Now peel the tape and as
much poster board of as you can the last bit
of paper can be easly removed
buy wetting it and sanding it of with some
100 grit when the area is clean
apply 2-3 more layers. When it is dry cut
the flange dow to 1" then sand and
fill. Put a crank seal baffle in I to use
the Van's baffles but I just buy
the $7 dollar templates also seal any leaks
in the baffle the stock inter
cylinder baffles fro Lycoming fit lke crap
goop them up with high temp
silicon. I shine a light up from the bottom
and if I see daylight through
anything but the cooling fins I seal it up
with metal or high temp silicon.
If for some strange reson it is still hot
rework the inlets again. Remember
good pressure differential equals goods
cooling air flow. The last thing to
check is the the area around the carb air
filter is sealed up as tight as you
can make it wit baffle seal as this is a
prime spot that lets the high
pressure ram air into the nice low pressure
are you are trying to create on
the botton side of the engine which defeats
the nice increased pressure
differential you have been trying to create.
This may all sound hard to do
but really only takes about 8-10 hours and
you can fly it when it still look
rough to test it before you paint. Good luck

Sean White
Kitplane Solutions Inc.
Kingston ON.



On 10/9/2003 6:53 PM, WALTER.KLATT@SHAW.CA
wrote to MURPHY-REBEL:

-> Received: by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP
Router v5.6.450.
-> for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com;
Thu, 09 Oct 2003 18:29:11 -0800
-> Received: from
shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10])
EHLO=pd4mo2so.prod.shaw.ca
-> by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP
v5.6.450. with SMTP
-> id 34330265; Thu, 09 Oct 2003
18:29:09 -0800
-> Received: from pd3mr3so.prod.shaw.ca
(pd3mr3so-ser.prod.shaw.ca
[10.0.141.179])
-> by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server
5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003))
-> with ESMTP id <0HMI00F5AS4EUY@l-daemon>
for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com; Thu,
-> 09 Oct 2003 20:26:38 -0600 (MDT)
-> Received: from pn2ml3so.prod.shaw.ca
-> (pn2ml3so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca
[10.0.121.147]) by l-daemon
-> (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix
1.16 (built May 14 2003))
-> with ESMTP id <0HMI004NDS4ENL@l-daemon>
for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com; Thu,
-> 09 Oct 2003 20:26:38 -0600 (MDT)
-> Received: from user
(h24-82-58-133.vs.shawcable.net [24.82.58.133])
-> by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server
5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003))
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for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com; Thu,
-> 09 Oct 2003 20:26:38 -0600 (MDT)
-> Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 19:26:32 -0700
-> From: Walter Klatt <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
-> Subject: RE: baffles
-> In-reply-to: <15a.25d71ca9.2cb75f6e@aol.com>
-> To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
-> Message-id:
<PFEOJDIIGOHLFACHDMDNCEPJCIAA.Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
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through wsMailGuard (wsAV)
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through wsMailGuard Professional
(wsSG4 using SpamAssassin)
->
-> Yup, that's basically it. It's not the
prettiest, but
-> at least is marginally acceptable now. That lexan
-> eyebrow on the left inlet helped, too. I
flew in the
-> hottest weather this summer, and lots of
long, hard,
-> heavily loaded climbs over the mountains,
and it did
-> work. However, I would still like to cool
it about 20
-> more degrees if I could. But without enlarging the
-> inlets, there is nothing more that I know
to try. I
-> have already done what's been discussed
here and more.
-> And yes, after about the 4th enlargement,
it was that
-> big hole that helped the most.
->
-> Walter
->
-> > -----Original Message-----
-> > From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> > [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
-> > Legeorgen@aol.com
-> > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 6:04 PM
-> > To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
-> > Subject: Re: baffles
-> >
-> >
-> > Walter managed to cool his 0320...he just
-> > cut the bottom of his speed cowl
-> > out. Well, almost anyway. If you take a look
-> > under his cowl there is this gaping
-> > hole with a flared lip that just kept
-> > getting bigger and bigger. Right
-> > Walter? He keeps telling me I'll have to do
-> > the same to mine after I get it on
-> > floats. He might be right.
-> >
-> > Bruce 357R
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > *--------------------------------------------
-> > -----------------------------*
-> > To unsubscribe from this list go to:
-> >

https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
-> > Archives located at
-> > https://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com/default.htm
-> > To contact the list admin, e-mail
-> > mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> > *--------------------------------------------
-> > -----------------------------*
-> >
-> >
-> >
->




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[Legeorgen]

Walter managed to cool his 0320...he just cut the bottom of his speed cowl
out. Well, almost anyway. If you take a look under his cowl there is this gaping
hole with a flared lip that just kept getting bigger and bigger. Right
Walter? He keeps telling me I'll have to do the same to mine after I get it on
floats. He might be right.

Bruce 357R



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[rebel]

Hi Walter there may slightly better cooling with an increase in the top cowl
inlet area but the whole theory of a pressure cowl is the pressure
differential from inlet to outlet. I don't know if you have ever seen the
updraft single inlet cowl that Piper played with in the 70's but you could
not see any cooling fins through the inlet that was in the bottom cowl with
the outlet on the top. To open the top would require a huge amount of work to
make it look good. Opening the bottom will have the same effect I think you
would be hard pressed to tell the difference. Good inlet to outlet pressure
differential is the key if you buy the Van's baffle templates you will find
two little templates that are called cylinder temp risers. These are
deflector plates the go in front of the two front cylinder to remove the
direct blast of air from them which makes them run cool. By playing with the
height of these plates one can balance the CHT's between the front and rear
cylinders as the rear ones tend to be hot. If you have the Murphy style
baffles I would throw them away as they are just one big air leak and lack
the parts that wrap around the bottom of the cylinders to control airflow
over the fins. Uses good quality baffle seal buy a large sheet apposed to the
stuff on the rolls this lets one cut all of the nice curved pieces in one
section instead of trying to make alot of little overlaping parts can you say
air leak. If you buy the premade baffles from Van's it saves you many days of
screwing around making you own. The only thing you need to do witn Van's kit
is trim the upper edge of the baffle around the top to clear the cowl and
install the seal. Just keep repeating GOOD PRESSURE DIFFERENTIAL EQUALS GOOD
FLOW and and you will beat the heat.

Sean



On 10/10/2003 3:18 AM, WALTER.KLATT@SHAW.CA wrote to MURPHY-REBEL:

-> Received: by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP Router v5.6.450.
-> for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com; Thu, 09 Oct 2003 21:09:13 -0800
-> Received: from shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10])
EHLO=pd2mo1so.prod.shaw.ca
-> by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP v5.6.450. with SMTP
-> id 43932265; Thu, 09 Oct 2003 21:09:11 -0800
-> Received: from pd4mr2so.prod.shaw.ca
-> (pd4mr2so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.213]) by l-daemon
-> (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003))
-> with ESMTP id <0HMI00A02XV3OA@l-daemon> for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com; Thu,
-> 09 Oct 2003 22:30:39 -0600 (MDT)
-> Received: from pn2ml6so.prod.shaw.ca
-> (pn2ml6so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.150]) by l-daemon
-> (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003))
-> with ESMTP id <0HMI00BI9XV3XT@l-daemon> for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com; Thu,
-> 09 Oct 2003 22:30:39 -0600 (MDT)
-> Received: from user (h24-82-58-133.vs.shawcable.net [24.82.58.133])
-> by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003))
-> with SMTP id <0HMI00JKDXV2MZ@l-daemon> for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com; Thu,
-> 09 Oct 2003 22:30:39 -0600 (MDT)
-> Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 21:30:33 -0700
-> From: Walter Klatt <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
-> Subject: RE: baffles
-> In-reply-to: <1065758599@dcsol.com>
-> To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
-> Message-id: <PFEOJDIIGOHLFACHDMDNMEPKCIAA.Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
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(wsSG4 using SpamAssassin)
->
-> Sean, you're the first that I have heard that has
-> increased the inlet size and confirmed that works. As
-> you say, I've also noticed how big the Cessna inlets
-> are compared to ours.
->
-> The only question I have is why the bottoms and not the
-> tops. Wouldn't larger top openings provide more direct
-> inflow into the cowl and perhaps less drag? I do
-> realize you might lose some of the visibility benefits
-> of the speed cowl.
->
-> Walter
->
-> > -----Original Message-----
-> > From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> > [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
-> > rebel@dcsol.com
-> > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 9:03 PM
-> > To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
-> > Subject: RE: baffles
-> >
-> >
-> > Hey I thought that big bump on the bottom of
-> > Walter's cowl was where he
-> > warmed his tv dinners. You are right on
-> > track with the thought that you need
-> > bigger inlets. On the last two Elites that I
-> > built I left one stock and
-> > increased the Inlet size buy cutting the
-> > lower lip of the inlet open buy 1"
-> > on the second one. This may not sound like
-> > much but when you work it out you
-> > are adding about 13 square inches to the
-> > inlet area or about 20% more. This
-> > dropped the CHT buy 65-70 degrees climb at
-> > 403 and cruise at 360 on a 50
-> > degree day and kept the oil temp at 170 this
-> > was with the stock cooler on the
-> > fire wall with the 3" scat hose and this was
-> > with a brand new 0-360 on it's
-> > first flight. A cowled engine relies on a
-> > preesure differential from the
-> > inlet to the outlet to flow the air over the
-> > cooling surfaces so continued
-> > opening of the bottom cowl stops helping and
-> > just gets ugly. Go measure the
-> > inlet on a 172 with an 0-320 and you will
-> > see how large they are compared to
-> > the Murphy cowls. It is easier to make up
-> > some plates to attach to the front
-> > of the cowl in cold weather than cook and
-> > rebuild your engine. You would be
-> > suprised at how small the outlet is I made
-> > it 150% of the inlet and glasaed
-> > on a nice 1" flange along the whole of the
-> > outlet area. This Elite lives in
-> > Reno Navada and has zero heat problems. Many
-> > feel this may cause more drag
-> > but this is not the case as speed increases
-> > and the pressure builds any
-> > excess air spills out around the inlet and
-> > over the cowl like the bow wave on
-> > a boat. How do you do it? Simple fit you
-> > cowl to the aircraft with all of the
-> > pins and screws or how ever you are going to
-> > do it. Now measure down 1" on
-> > the lower surface 1" blending in the coners.
-> > Now take two small pieces of
-> > blue or pink foam insulationand fit them to
-> > the inside of the cowl you may
-> > sand it with 100 grit sand paper to make it
-> > fit nice. Make sure that you put
-> > a nice radius on the front edge to match the
-> > chunk you cut away when you like
-> > them glue them in place with some 5 minute
-> > epoxy. Time to glass buy some
-> > epoxy resin like West System
-> > www.westsystem.com this can be found at marinas
-> > and hooby shops. use 4 or 6 oz. cloth the
-> > same stuff you make the windshield
-> > retainer out of works fine. Put two neat
-> > layers on and let it cure over
-> > night. Now pick the foam out of the back
-> > side when you have it down to the
-> > last few crumbs you can was them away with a
-> > little MEK don't try to melt the
-> > foam out in one shot it makes a mess and
-> > don't use gas as it has oil in it.
-> > Now sabd the inside until it is smooth and
-> > apply 4 more layers of cloth on
-> > the back side again let it dry over night.
-> > The last thing to do is sand and
-> > fill the outside to make to make it look
-> > good. As for the outlet start with
-> > the 150% rule buy cutting a nice opening a
-> > little bigger won't hurt but stay
-> > under 175% as any larger does nothing. To
-> > Glass the flange on I tape poster
-> > board along the back edge and tape it to the
-> > inside of the cowl You will want
-> > to angle the flange back a bit I go between
-> > 70-80 degrees to the bottom of
-> > the cowl. Grind away the gelcoat 2" all
-> > around the outlet before you tape the
-> > poster board on. Again start with two layers
-> > of glass cloth on the out side
-> > and run it up at least 2" and let it dry
-> > overnightn Now peel the tape and as
-> > much poster board of as you can the last bit
-> > of paper can be easly removed
-> > buy wetting it and sanding it of with some
-> > 100 grit when the area is clean
-> > apply 2-3 more layers. When it is dry cut
-> > the flange dow to 1" then sand and
-> > fill. Put a crank seal baffle in I to use
-> > the Van's baffles but I just buy
-> > the $7 dollar templates also seal any leaks
-> > in the baffle the stock inter
-> > cylinder baffles fro Lycoming fit lke crap
-> > goop them up with high temp
-> > silicon. I shine a light up from the bottom
-> > and if I see daylight through
-> > anything but the cooling fins I seal it up
-> > with metal or high temp silicon.
-> > If for some strange reson it is still hot
-> > rework the inlets again. Remember
-> > good pressure differential equals goods
-> > cooling air flow. The last thing to
-> > check is the the area around the carb air
-> > filter is sealed up as tight as you
-> > can make it wit baffle seal as this is a
-> > prime spot that lets the high
-> > pressure ram air into the nice low pressure
-> > are you are trying to create on
-> > the botton side of the engine which defeats
-> > the nice increased pressure
-> > differential you have been trying to create.
-> > This may all sound hard to do
-> > but really only takes about 8-10 hours and
-> > you can fly it when it still look
-> > rough to test it before you paint. Good luck
-> >
-> > Sean White
-> > Kitplane Solutions Inc.
-> > Kingston ON.
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > On 10/9/2003 6:53 PM, WALTER.KLATT@SHAW.CA
-> > wrote to MURPHY-REBEL:
-> >
-> > -> Received: by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP
-> > Router v5.6.450.
-> > -> for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com;
-> > Thu, 09 Oct 2003 18:29:11 -0800
-> > -> Received: from
-> > shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10])
-> > EHLO=pd4mo2so.prod.shaw.ca
-> > -> by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP
-> > v5.6.450. with SMTP
-> > -> id 34330265; Thu, 09 Oct 2003
-> > 18:29:09 -0800
-> > -> Received: from pd3mr3so.prod.shaw.ca
-> > (pd3mr3so-ser.prod.shaw.ca
-> > [10.0.141.179])
-> > -> by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server
-> > 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003))
-> > -> with ESMTP id <0HMI00F5AS4EUY@l-daemon>
-> > for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com; Thu,
-> > -> 09 Oct 2003 20:26:38 -0600 (MDT)
-> > -> Received: from pn2ml3so.prod.shaw.ca
-> > -> (pn2ml3so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca
-> > [10.0.121.147]) by l-daemon
-> > -> (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix
-> > 1.16 (built May 14 2003))
-> > -> with ESMTP id <0HMI004NDS4ENL@l-daemon>
-> > for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com; Thu,
-> > -> 09 Oct 2003 20:26:38 -0600 (MDT)
-> > -> Received: from user
-> > (h24-82-58-133.vs.shawcable.net [24.82.58.133])
-> > -> by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server
-> > 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003))
-> > -> with SMTP id <0HMI00LB4S4EN1@l-daemon>
-> > for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com; Thu,
-> > -> 09 Oct 2003 20:26:38 -0600 (MDT)
-> > -> Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 19:26:32 -0700
-> > -> From: Walter Klatt <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
-> > -> Subject: RE: baffles
-> > -> In-reply-to: <15a.25d71ca9.2cb75f6e@aol.com>
-> > -> To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
-> > -> Message-id:
-> > <PFEOJDIIGOHLFACHDMDNCEPJCIAA.Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
-> > -> X-Orig-MIME-version: 1.0
-> > -> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE
-> > V6.00.2800.1165
-> > -> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build
-> > 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0)
-> > -> X-Orig-Content-type: text/plain;
-> > charset=iso-8859-1
-> > -> X-Orig-Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
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-> > -> X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
-> > -> X-MSMail-priority: Normal
-> > -> X-Antivirus-Remover: Message was filtered
-> > through wsMailGuard (wsAV)
-> > -> X-Spam-Remover: Message was filtered
-> > through wsMailGuard Professional
-> > (wsSG4 using SpamAssassin)
-> > ->
-> > -> Yup, that's basically it. It's not the
-> > prettiest, but
-> > -> at least is marginally acceptable now. That lexan
-> > -> eyebrow on the left inlet helped, too. I
-> > flew in the
-> > -> hottest weather this summer, and lots of
-> > long, hard,
-> > -> heavily loaded climbs over the mountains,
-> > and it did
-> > -> work. However, I would still like to cool
-> > it about 20
-> > -> more degrees if I could. But without enlarging the
-> > -> inlets, there is nothing more that I know
-> > to try. I
-> > -> have already done what's been discussed
-> > here and more.
-> > -> And yes, after about the 4th enlargement,
-> > it was that
-> > -> big hole that helped the most.
-> > ->
-> > -> Walter
-> > ->
-> > -> > -----Original Message-----
-> > -> > From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> > -> > [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
-> > -> > Legeorgen@aol.com
-> > -> > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 6:04 PM
-> > -> > To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
-> > -> > Subject: Re: baffles
-> > -> >
-> > -> >
-> > -> > Walter managed to cool his 0320...he just
-> > -> > cut the bottom of his speed cowl
-> > -> > out. Well, almost anyway. If you take a look
-> > -> > under his cowl there is this gaping
-> > -> > hole with a flared lip that just kept
-> > -> > getting bigger and bigger. Right
-> > -> > Walter? He keeps telling me I'll have to do
-> > -> > the same to mine after I get it on
-> > -> > floats. He might be right.
-> > -> >
-> > -> > Bruce 357R
-> > -> >
-> > -> >
-> > -> >
-> > -> > *--------------------------------------------
-> > -> > -----------------------------*
-> > -> > To unsubscribe from this list go to:
-> > -> >
-> https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
-> -> > Archives located at
-> -> > https://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com/default.htm
-> -> > To contact the list admin, e-mail
-> -> > mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> -> > *--------------------------------------------
-> -> > -----------------------------*
-> -> >
-> -> >
-> -> >
-> ->
->
->
->
->
-> *------------------------------------------------------
-> -------------------*
-> To unsubscribe from this list go to:
-> https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
-> Archives located at
-> https://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com/default.htm
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-> *------------------------------------------------------
-> -------------------*
->
->
->




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[Walter Klatt]

Thanks, Sean, for the great information. I've got all
the other improvements you mention, and a few more, but
not the bigger inlets. I will have to look at this area
some more, and decide if I want to do something this
winter.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
rebel@dcsol.com
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 5:00 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: baffles


Hi Walter there may slightly better cooling
with an increase in the top cowl
inlet area but the whole theory of a
pressure cowl is the pressure
differential from inlet to outlet. I don't
know if you have ever seen the
updraft single inlet cowl that Piper played
with in the 70's but you could
not see any cooling fins through the inlet
that was in the bottom cowl with
the outlet on the top. To open the top would
require a huge amount of work to
make it look good. Opening the bottom will
have the same effect I think you
would be hard pressed to tell the
difference. Good inlet to outlet pressure
differential is the key if you buy the Van's
baffle templates you will find
two little templates that are called
cylinder temp risers. These are
deflector plates the go in front of the two
front cylinder to remove the
direct blast of air from them which makes
them run cool. By playing with the
height of these plates one can balance the
CHT's between the front and rear
cylinders as the rear ones tend to be hot.
If you have the Murphy style
baffles I would throw them away as they are
just one big air leak and lack
the parts that wrap around the bottom of the
cylinders to control airflow
over the fins. Uses good quality baffle seal
buy a large sheet apposed to the
stuff on the rolls this lets one cut all of
the nice curved pieces in one
section instead of trying to make alot of
little overlaping parts can you say
air leak. If you buy the premade baffles
from Van's it saves you many days of
screwing around making you own. The only
thing you need to do witn Van's kit
is trim the upper edge of the baffle around
the top to clear the cowl and
install the seal. Just keep repeating GOOD
PRESSURE DIFFERENTIAL EQUALS GOOD
FLOW and and you will beat the heat.

Sean



On 10/10/2003 3:18 AM, WALTER.KLATT@SHAW.CA
wrote to MURPHY-REBEL:

-> Received: by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP
Router v5.6.450.
-> for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com;
Thu, 09 Oct 2003 21:09:13 -0800
-> Received: from
shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10])
EHLO=pd2mo1so.prod.shaw.ca
-> by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP
v5.6.450. with SMTP
-> id 43932265; Thu, 09 Oct 2003
21:09:11 -0800
-> Received: from pd4mr2so.prod.shaw.ca
-> (pd4mr2so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca
[10.0.141.213]) by l-daemon
-> (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix
1.16 (built May 14 2003))
-> with ESMTP id <0HMI00A02XV3OA@l-daemon>
for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com; Thu,
-> 09 Oct 2003 22:30:39 -0600 (MDT)
-> Received: from pn2ml6so.prod.shaw.ca
-> (pn2ml6so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca
[10.0.121.150]) by l-daemon
-> (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix
1.16 (built May 14 2003))
-> with ESMTP id <0HMI00BI9XV3XT@l-daemon>
for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com; Thu,
-> 09 Oct 2003 22:30:39 -0600 (MDT)
-> Received: from user
(h24-82-58-133.vs.shawcable.net [24.82.58.133])
-> by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server
5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003))
-> with SMTP id <0HMI00JKDXV2MZ@l-daemon>
for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com; Thu,
-> 09 Oct 2003 22:30:39 -0600 (MDT)
-> Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 21:30:33 -0700
-> From: Walter Klatt <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
-> Subject: RE: baffles
-> In-reply-to: <1065758599@dcsol.com>
-> To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
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<PFEOJDIIGOHLFACHDMDNMEPKCIAA.Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
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->
-> Sean, you're the first that I have heard that has
-> increased the inlet size and confirmed
that works. As
-> you say, I've also noticed how big the
Cessna inlets
-> are compared to ours.
->
-> The only question I have is why the
bottoms and not the
-> tops. Wouldn't larger top openings
provide more direct
-> inflow into the cowl and perhaps less drag? I do
-> realize you might lose some of the
visibility benefits
-> of the speed cowl.
->
-> Walter
->
-> > -----Original Message-----
-> > From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> > [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
-> > rebel@dcsol.com
-> > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 9:03 PM
-> > To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
-> > Subject: RE: baffles
-> >
-> >
-> > Hey I thought that big bump on the bottom of
-> > Walter's cowl was where he
-> > warmed his tv dinners. You are right on
-> > track with the thought that you need
-> > bigger inlets. On the last two Elites that I
-> > built I left one stock and
-> > increased the Inlet size buy cutting the
-> > lower lip of the inlet open buy 1"
-> > on the second one. This may not sound like
-> > much but when you work it out you
-> > are adding about 13 square inches to the
-> > inlet area or about 20% more. This
-> > dropped the CHT buy 65-70 degrees climb at
-> > 403 and cruise at 360 on a 50
-> > degree day and kept the oil temp at 170 this
-> > was with the stock cooler on the
-> > fire wall with the 3" scat hose and this was
-> > with a brand new 0-360 on it's
-> > first flight. A cowled engine relies on a
-> > preesure differential from the
-> > inlet to the outlet to flow the air over the
-> > cooling surfaces so continued
-> > opening of the bottom cowl stops helping and
-> > just gets ugly. Go measure the
-> > inlet on a 172 with an 0-320 and you will
-> > see how large they are compared to
-> > the Murphy cowls. It is easier to make up
-> > some plates to attach to the front
-> > of the cowl in cold weather than cook and
-> > rebuild your engine. You would be
-> > suprised at how small the outlet is I made
-> > it 150% of the inlet and glasaed
-> > on a nice 1" flange along the whole of the
-> > outlet area. This Elite lives in
-> > Reno Navada and has zero heat problems. Many
-> > feel this may cause more drag
-> > but this is not the case as speed increases
-> > and the pressure builds any
-> > excess air spills out around the inlet and
-> > over the cowl like the bow wave on
-> > a boat. How do you do it? Simple fit you
-> > cowl to the aircraft with all of the
-> > pins and screws or how ever you are going to
-> > do it. Now measure down 1" on
-> > the lower surface 1" blending in the coners.
-> > Now take two small pieces of
-> > blue or pink foam insulationand fit them to
-> > the inside of the cowl you may
-> > sand it with 100 grit sand paper to make it
-> > fit nice. Make sure that you put
-> > a nice radius on the front edge to match the
-> > chunk you cut away when you like
-> > them glue them in place with some 5 minute
-> > epoxy. Time to glass buy some
-> > epoxy resin like West System
-> > www.westsystem.com this can be found at marinas
-> > and hooby shops. use 4 or 6 oz. cloth the
-> > same stuff you make the windshield
-> > retainer out of works fine. Put two neat
-> > layers on and let it cure over
-> > night. Now pick the foam out of the back
-> > side when you have it down to the
-> > last few crumbs you can was them away with a
-> > little MEK don't try to melt the
-> > foam out in one shot it makes a mess and
-> > don't use gas as it has oil in it.
-> > Now sabd the inside until it is smooth and
-> > apply 4 more layers of cloth on
-> > the back side again let it dry over night.
-> > The last thing to do is sand and
-> > fill the outside to make to make it look
-> > good. As for the outlet start with
-> > the 150% rule buy cutting a nice opening a
-> > little bigger won't hurt but stay
-> > under 175% as any larger does nothing. To
-> > Glass the flange on I tape poster
-> > board along the back edge and tape it to the
-> > inside of the cowl You will want
-> > to angle the flange back a bit I go between
-> > 70-80 degrees to the bottom of
-> > the cowl. Grind away the gelcoat 2" all
-> > around the outlet before you tape the
-> > poster board on. Again start with two layers
-> > of glass cloth on the out side
-> > and run it up at least 2" and let it dry
-> > overnightn Now peel the tape and as
-> > much poster board of as you can the last bit
-> > of paper can be easly removed
-> > buy wetting it and sanding it of with some
-> > 100 grit when the area is clean
-> > apply 2-3 more layers. When it is dry cut
-> > the flange dow to 1" then sand and
-> > fill. Put a crank seal baffle in I to use
-> > the Van's baffles but I just buy
-> > the $7 dollar templates also seal any leaks
-> > in the baffle the stock inter
-> > cylinder baffles fro Lycoming fit lke crap
-> > goop them up with high temp
-> > silicon. I shine a light up from the bottom
-> > and if I see daylight through
-> > anything but the cooling fins I seal it up
-> > with metal or high temp silicon.
-> > If for some strange reson it is still hot
-> > rework the inlets again. Remember
-> > good pressure differential equals goods
-> > cooling air flow. The last thing to
-> > check is the the area around the carb air
-> > filter is sealed up as tight as you
-> > can make it wit baffle seal as this is a
-> > prime spot that lets the high
-> > pressure ram air into the nice low pressure
-> > are you are trying to create on
-> > the botton side of the engine which defeats
-> > the nice increased pressure
-> > differential you have been trying to create.
-> > This may all sound hard to do
-> > but really only takes about 8-10 hours and
-> > you can fly it when it still look
-> > rough to test it before you paint. Good luck
-> >
-> > Sean White
-> > Kitplane Solutions Inc.
-> > Kingston ON.
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > On 10/9/2003 6:53 PM, WALTER.KLATT@SHAW.CA
-> > wrote to MURPHY-REBEL:
-> >
-> > -> Received: by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP
-> > Router v5.6.450.
-> > -> for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com;
-> > Thu, 09 Oct 2003 18:29:11 -0800
-> > -> Received: from
-> > shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10])
-> > EHLO=pd4mo2so.prod.shaw.ca
-> > -> by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP
-> > v5.6.450. with SMTP
-> > -> id 34330265; Thu, 09 Oct 2003
-> > 18:29:09 -0800
-> > -> Received: from pd3mr3so.prod.shaw.ca
-> > (pd3mr3so-ser.prod.shaw.ca
-> > [10.0.141.179])
-> > -> by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server
-> > 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003))
-> > -> with ESMTP id <0HMI00F5AS4EUY@l-daemon>
-> > for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com; Thu,
-> > -> 09 Oct 2003 20:26:38 -0600 (MDT)
-> > -> Received: from pn2ml3so.prod.shaw.ca
-> > -> (pn2ml3so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca
-> > [10.0.121.147]) by l-daemon
-> > -> (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix
-> > 1.16 (built May 14 2003))
-> > -> with ESMTP id <0HMI004NDS4ENL@l-daemon>
-> > for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com; Thu,
-> > -> 09 Oct 2003 20:26:38 -0600 (MDT)
-> > -> Received: from user
-> > (h24-82-58-133.vs.shawcable.net [24.82.58.133])
-> > -> by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server
-> > 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003))
-> > -> with SMTP id <0HMI00LB4S4EN1@l-daemon>
-> > for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com; Thu,
-> > -> 09 Oct 2003 20:26:38 -0600 (MDT)
-> > -> Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 19:26:32 -0700
-> > -> From: Walter Klatt <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
-> > -> Subject: RE: baffles
-> > -> In-reply-to: <15a.25d71ca9.2cb75f6e@aol.com>
-> > -> To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
-> > -> Message-id:
-> >
<PFEOJDIIGOHLFACHDMDNCEPJCIAA.Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
-> > -> X-Orig-MIME-version: 1.0
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-> > 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0)
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-> > charset=iso-8859-1
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-> > through wsMailGuard (wsAV)
-> > -> X-Spam-Remover: Message was filtered
-> > through wsMailGuard Professional
-> > (wsSG4 using SpamAssassin)
-> > ->
-> > -> Yup, that's basically it. It's not the
-> > prettiest, but
-> > -> at least is marginally acceptable
now. That lexan
-> > -> eyebrow on the left inlet helped, too. I
-> > flew in the
-> > -> hottest weather this summer, and lots of
-> > long, hard,
-> > -> heavily loaded climbs over the mountains,
-> > and it did
-> > -> work. However, I would still like to cool
-> > it about 20
-> > -> more degrees if I could. But without
enlarging the
-> > -> inlets, there is nothing more that I know
-> > to try. I
-> > -> have already done what's been discussed
-> > here and more.
-> > -> And yes, after about the 4th enlargement,
-> > it was that
-> > -> big hole that helped the most.
-> > ->
-> > -> Walter
-> > ->
-> > -> > -----Original Message-----
-> > -> > From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> > -> > [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
-> > -> > Legeorgen@aol.com
-> > -> > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 6:04 PM
-> > -> > To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
-> > -> > Subject: Re: baffles
-> > -> >
-> > -> >
-> > -> > Walter managed to cool his 0320...he just
-> > -> > cut the bottom of his speed cowl
-> > -> > out. Well, almost anyway. If you
take a look
-> > -> > under his cowl there is this gaping
-> > -> > hole with a flared lip that just kept
-> > -> > getting bigger and bigger. Right
-> > -> > Walter? He keeps telling me I'll have to do
-> > -> > the same to mine after I get it on
-> > -> > floats. He might be right.
-> > -> >
-> > -> > Bruce 357R
-> > -> >
-> > -> >
-> > -> >
-> > -> >
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->
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-> -> > To contact the list admin, e-mail
-> -> > mike.davis@dcsol.com
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-> -> >
-> -> >
-> -> >
-> ->
->
->
->
->
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[Legeorgen]

Sean,

Thanks Sean for all that information concerning baffles and air differential
flow. I understand the concept but I never heard it explained that way and it
made a lot of sense to me.

I remember MAM baffles not having the lower cylinder rap around. I also
remember, now, altering MAM's patterns to include the lower cylinder raps. And
wondering why there were no forward engine baffles like the RV's had, which I have
now also included. The forward baffle lowered my hottest CHT by 10* F alone.

I read "Tony Bengalis" who says 150% exit air so I designed my exit
accordingly but do not have the angle lip to accelerate the air flow as you described.
I believe it will be easy for me to add an aluminum strip riveted to the lower
cowl to create this air accelerator.

I know my carb inlet is not as air tight as it could be and may be adding to
my wow's so I'll address that next trip to the airplane with some baffle seal.

Unfortunately enlarging the inlet would require a major overhaul of my nice
flying and painted cowl and although it may be the best solution, it is not one
I'm willing to tackle now.

As with Walter, my CHT's are just marginal. Lycoming recommends staying under
400* F in 75% cruise and 435* F in max power cruise. Although mid 300's would
be better I'm not sure I can achieve this, especially when the floats are put
on this winter.

If I did it again I would certainly enlarge the inlet air as you and Walter
described. This, I believe now, is the biggest defect that plagues MAM's speed
cowl and its associated heat problems. Along with the poor baffle patterns.
And I would buy the RV baffles.

Bruce 357R



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[Walter Klatt]

Drew, when you say install a baffle from front to back
on top of the engine, do mean a closed plenum? For me
that would be a little difficult with this cowl. The
fibreglass cowl is pretty tight on top, and I think you
would need to fabricate compound curves on the top
piece to make it fit. That's a little beyond my metal
skills.

In my case, I have no problems with oil temps, as the
oil cooler is attached to the rear of my right baffle.
In fact, I have to close off air flow to keep the temps
up. It's my rear cylinders that get hot, with my #3 CHT
being the highest.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Drew Dalgleish
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 10:31 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: baffles

Heres a couple more things for you to try
Walter. There used to by a cessna
aerobat at centralia that the AME owner did
a whole bunch of cooling tricks
to. One of the things he did that he claimed
made a huge difference was
install a baffle from front to back along
the top of the engine case. His
theory was that it reduced the turbulance on
top of the engine and allowed
the air to flow smoothly through the
cylinders. It must have worked because
he kept reducing the inlet size until it's
now only about 2"high. Kind of
the same idea as smoothing the outlet with
an aluminum wrap at the bottom
of the firewall.
On my plane I saw significantly reduced
temps by using header tape to wrap
my exhaust. Bob P. Hates the stuff but I
just did my annual and after 4
years 250hrs. there's no visible
deterioration on either the old piper
cross-over exhaust I used or the mild steel
extension pipes that replace
the piper muffler. With a new oil cooler
installed this summer when I
changed my plane over to floats the highest
oil temperature I've seen is
190 degrees. That was after a long full
power climb on a 30 degree day.
Usually my temps are under 180*
Drew Dalgleish




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[Walter Klatt]

OK, I get it now. Never heard of that one, though.

The concern on mine might be that the right side
opening is tighter because the #1 cylinder is closer to
the front, and that is also the side where my oil
cooler is. So if the sides then work independently, my
left side would get more air than the right side, which
is where my hot #3 cylinder is. With it open in the
middle, I was counting on some of the air from the left
also making it over to the right. If my oil cooler was
on the left, I could see this being worth a try.

Interesting theory though, and maybe this is something
for Bruce G to try and let us know how it works.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 2:04 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: baffles


Drew would be talking about a straight piece
from your front baffle back to
the accessory case, bolted on using a couple
of top case bolts down the
center, with baffle seal along the top. This
keeps air from mixing from side
to side. My UTVA's have this down the center
of the GSO-480's.

Happy "Gobble Gobble" Canadians,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 3:31 PM
Subject: RE: baffles

Drew, when you say install a baffle from

front to back

on top of the engine, do mean a closed

plenum? For me

that would be a little difficult with this

cowl. The

fibreglass cowl is pretty tight on top,

and I think you

would need to fabricate compound curves on the top
piece to make it fit. That's a little

beyond my metal

skills.

In my case, I have no problems with oil

temps, as the

oil cooler is attached to the rear of my

right baffle.

In fact, I have to close off air flow to

keep the temps

up. It's my rear cylinders that get hot,

with my #3 CHT

being the highest.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Drew Dalgleish
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 10:31 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: baffles

Heres a couple more things for you to try
Walter. There used to by a cessna
aerobat at centralia that the AME owner did
a whole bunch of cooling tricks
to. One of the things he did that he claimed
made a huge difference was
install a baffle from front to back along
the top of the engine case. His
theory was that it reduced the turbulance on
top of the engine and allowed
the air to flow smoothly through the
cylinders. It must have worked because
he kept reducing the inlet size until it's
now only about 2"high. Kind of
the same idea as smoothing the outlet with
an aluminum wrap at the bottom
of the firewall.
On my plane I saw significantly reduced
temps by using header tape to wrap
my exhaust. Bob P. Hates the stuff but I
just did my annual and after 4
years 250hrs. there's no visible
deterioration on either the old piper
cross-over exhaust I used or the mild steel
extension pipes that replace
the piper muffler. With a new oil cooler
installed this summer when I
changed my plane over to floats the highest
oil temperature I've seen is
190 degrees. That was after a long full
power climb on a 30 degree day.
Usually my temps are under 180*
Drew Dalgleish




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