The Murphy Builders Site

Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:08 am**

Hi Dave !

There are 2 reasons for fastening 2 channels to support the rails.
One is to give a wider top surface, so both rows of rivets are in
a flange, and the second is to make the whole thing stronger.

The 2 flanges together should give you lots of surface -
these channels are ST-28's or ST-31's ... they go like this:
][ ][ with epoxy & rivets thru the center web,
although some have done it the other way -- [] - although this
might not be as strong & easy as the former, both give extra
support to the rails. The first way puts the webs right under the
center of the rail.

--
......bobp
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.qbeautyzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Sunday 10 September 2006 10:52 pm, David L. Tuck wrote:

I saw some where that the floor channels that the seat tracks are rivited to
are to narrow ? I don't know what to do here. Seems like if the floor
channels are to be rivited together to make an H, that the top flange needs
to be wider ? Anyone have any advise here.
Thanks Dave T Rebel #009

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:12 am**

Hi Bob,

I'm installing the channels now and after comparing the width of the
channel flanges to the width of the seat rail I see a problem. If I drill
through the rail so as to have adequate edge distance in the flanges, I
can't get the tip of the rivet gun in place to pull the rivets. If I drill
the seat rail so that the rivet gun can pull the rivet I will barely catch
the edge of the flanges. How did you deal with this?

Thanks for the help.

Allen Poulsen
786R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <beep@sympatico.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 10:53 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - Seat Rail Channels

Hi Dave !

There are 2 reasons for fastening 2 channels to support the rails.
One is to give a wider top surface, so both rows of rivets are in
a flange, and the second is to make the whole thing stronger.

The 2 flanges together should give you lots of surface -
these channels are ST-28's or ST-31's ... they go like this:
][ ][ with epoxy & rivets thru the center web,
although some have done it the other way -- [] - although this
might not be as strong & easy as the former, both give extra
support to the rails. The first way puts the webs right under the
center of the rail.

--
......bobp
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.qbeautyzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Sunday 10 September 2006 10:52 pm, David L. Tuck wrote:
I saw some where that the floor channels that the seat tracks are rivited
to
are to narrow ? I don't know what to do here. Seems like if the floor
channels are to be rivited together to make an H, that the top flange
needs
to be wider ? Anyone have any advise here.
Thanks Dave T Rebel #009

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:12 am**

I dealt with it by mounting the channels facing each other at an
appropriate distance apart. However a trick that sometimes works in
similar situations is to drill a hole in about a 5/16" round piece of
steel (from a bolt shank perhaps) that is about 1/4" long. Drop that
over the rivet mandrel and then use the rivet puller.
Ken

apoulsen wrote:

Hi Bob,

I'm installing the channels now and after comparing the width of the
channel flanges to the width of the seat rail I see a problem. If I drill
through the rail so as to have adequate edge distance in the flanges, I
can't get the tip of the rivet gun in place to pull the rivets. If I drill
the seat rail so that the rivet gun can pull the rivet I will barely catch
the edge of the flanges. How did you deal with this?

Thanks for the help.

Allen Poulsen
786R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <beep@sympatico.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 10:53 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - Seat Rail Channels

Hi Dave !

There are 2 reasons for fastening 2 channels to support the rails.
One is to give a wider top surface, so both rows of rivets are in
a flange, and the second is to make the whole thing stronger.

The 2 flanges together should give you lots of surface -
these channels are ST-28's or ST-31's ... they go like this:
][ ][ with epoxy & rivets thru the center web,
although some have done it the other way -- [] - although this
might not be as strong & easy as the former, both give extra
support to the rails. The first way puts the webs right under the
center of the rail.

--
......bobp
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.qbeautyzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Sunday 10 September 2006 10:52 pm, David L. Tuck wrote:

I saw some where that the floor channels that the seat tracks are rivited
to
are to narrow ? I don't know what to do here. Seems like if the floor
channels are to be rivited together to make an H, that the top flange
needs
to be wider ? Anyone have any advise here.
Thanks Dave T Rebel #009

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username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:12 am**

Hi Allen !

I'm having a little trouble visualizing your problem - need to
run up & check the airplane ! ;-)

The seat rail is approx. (bad memory here !) 3/4" wide and
the 2 back-to-back ST-31's should give about 1 1/2" of surface ...
The rail would run down the center, above the webs of the channels.
You don't have to worry as much about edge distance from the web
as from the outside edges. The rivets can, and likely will be
closer to the web side than normal edge distance.

This isn't as much of a concern, because the rivet is much
less likely to tear out the metal on the web side....
____
_v_||_v_ <- rail
--------------|----|------------------ <- floor skin
_____|_ _|_____ <- rivets
- || -
||

--|

||
|| <- channels
||

--|

||
___-____||____-___
-----------|----------|---------------- <- belly skin
^ ^-rivets

Since you have to rivet from the outside, you might have
to grind a bit off the rivet gun head, and a bit off the rail in
that spot.

--
......bobp
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.qbeautyzone.com
-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 14 September 2006 10:07 pm, apoulsen wrote:

Hi Bob,

I'm installing the channels now and after comparing the width of the
channel flanges to the width of the seat rail I see a problem. If I drill
through the rail so as to have adequate edge distance in the flanges, I
can't get the tip of the rivet gun in place to pull the rivets. If I drill
the seat rail so that the rivet gun can pull the rivet I will barely catch
the edge of the flanges. How did you deal with this?

Thanks for the help.

Allen Poulsen
786R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <beep@sympatico.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 10:53 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - Seat Rail Channels

Hi Dave !

There are 2 reasons for fastening 2 channels to support the rails.
One is to give a wider top surface, so both rows of rivets are in
a flange, and the second is to make the whole thing stronger.

The 2 flanges together should give you lots of surface -
these channels are ST-28's or ST-31's ... they go like this:
][ ][ with epoxy & rivets thru the center web,
although some have done it the other way -- [] - although this
might not be as strong & easy as the former, both give extra
support to the rails. The first way puts the webs right under the
center of the rail.

--
......bobp
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.qbeautyzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Sunday 10 September 2006 10:52 pm, David L. Tuck wrote:
I saw some where that the floor channels that the seat tracks are rivited
to
are to narrow ? I don't know what to do here. Seems like if the floor
channels are to be rivited together to make an H, that the top flange
needs
to be wider ? Anyone have any advise here.
Thanks Dave T Rebel #009

-----------------------------------------------------------------
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username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
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-----------------------------------------------------------------

Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:12 am**

Sorry Allen !

After reading Ken's comment, I'm guessing that either my memory
is bad, or those flanges are narrower now.... ;-)

In any case, Ken has the answer - just separate the flanges as
required -- or you could put a spacer strip in between them, if you
really wanted stiffness - and extra weight ! :-(

Thanks Ken - I love the trick of a short drilled tube over
the mandrel to pull the rivet !! Brilliant !!!!
I did a lot of grinding off the side of the rivet gun nozzle ... :-(

--
......bobp
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.qbeautyzone.com
-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 14 September 2006 10:57 pm, Bob Patterson wrote:

Hi Allen !

I'm having a little trouble visualizing your problem - need to
run up & check the airplane ! ;-)

The seat rail is approx. (bad memory here !) 3/4" wide and
the 2 back-to-back ST-31's should give about 1 1/2" of surface ...
The rail would run down the center, above the webs of the channels.
You don't have to worry as much about edge distance from the web
as from the outside edges. The rivets can, and likely will be
closer to the web side than normal edge distance.

This isn't as much of a concern, because the rivet is much
less likely to tear out the metal on the web side....
____
_v_||_v_ <- rail
--------------|----|------------------ <- floor skin
_____|_ _|_____ <- rivets
- || -
||
--|
||
|| <- channels
||
--|
||
___-____||____-___
-----------|----------|---------------- <- belly skin
^ ^-rivets

Since you have to rivet from the outside, you might have
to grind a bit off the rivet gun head, and a bit off the rail in
that spot.

--
......bobp
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.qbeautyzone.com
-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 14 September 2006 10:07 pm, apoulsen wrote:
Hi Bob,

I'm installing the channels now and after comparing the width of the
channel flanges to the width of the seat rail I see a problem. If I drill
through the rail so as to have adequate edge distance in the flanges, I
can't get the tip of the rivet gun in place to pull the rivets. If I drill
the seat rail so that the rivet gun can pull the rivet I will barely catch
the edge of the flanges. How did you deal with this?

Thanks for the help.

Allen Poulsen
786R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <beep@sympatico.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 10:53 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - Seat Rail Channels

Hi Dave !

There are 2 reasons for fastening 2 channels to support the rails.
One is to give a wider top surface, so both rows of rivets are in
a flange, and the second is to make the whole thing stronger.

The 2 flanges together should give you lots of surface -
these channels are ST-28's or ST-31's ... they go like this:
][ ][ with epoxy & rivets thru the center web,
although some have done it the other way -- [] - although this
might not be as strong & easy as the former, both give extra
support to the rails. The first way puts the webs right under the
center of the rail.

--
......bobp
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.qbeautyzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Sunday 10 September 2006 10:52 pm, David L. Tuck wrote:

rivited

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:12 am**

Allen,
FWIW, I went with the old method of one channel centered under one side of
the seat rails. I know I will get some flak from some, but my reasons are as
follows; Reviewing the archives shows the floor structure using the single
channel method has held up to crashes that required extensive rebuilding of
other parts of the airplane due to high G "landings". The floor structure
should be able to collapse under your seat in a high G impact to help save
your back anyway. I used .025 (cutoff ends from bulkheads) single channels
under the rails. I have extra floor channels in other locations, so overall
strength of the structure is not an issue, for example I have 8 single
channels between the carrythrough and the first bulkhead.
If the seatbelts were attached to the seat like some airplanes, then I would
put some serious metal in the floor, but the floor really only needs to be
strong enough to keep your butt from hitting the ground.
Jesse

From: "apoulsen" <apoulsen@comcast.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - Seat Rail Channels
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 22:07:50 -0400

Hi Bob,

I'm installing the channels now and after comparing the width of the
channel flanges to the width of the seat rail I see a problem. If I drill
through the rail so as to have adequate edge distance in the flanges, I
can't get the tip of the rivet gun in place to pull the rivets. If I drill
the seat rail so that the rivet gun can pull the rivet I will barely catch
the edge of the flanges. How did you deal with this?

Thanks for the help.

Allen Poulsen
786R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <beep@sympatico.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 10:53 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - Seat Rail Channels

Hi Dave !

There are 2 reasons for fastening 2 channels to support the rails.
One is to give a wider top surface, so both rows of rivets are in
a flange, and the second is to make the whole thing stronger.

The 2 flanges together should give you lots of surface -
these channels are ST-28's or ST-31's ... they go like this:
][ ][ with epoxy & rivets thru the center web,
although some have done it the other way -- [] - although this
might not be as strong & easy as the former, both give extra
support to the rails. The first way puts the webs right under the
center of the rail.

--
......bobp
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.qbeautyzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Sunday 10 September 2006 10:52 pm, David L. Tuck wrote:
I saw some where that the floor channels that the seat tracks are
rivited
to
are to narrow ? I don't know what to do here. Seems like if the floor
channels are to be rivited together to make an H, that the top flange
needs
to be wider ? Anyone have any advise here.
Thanks Dave T Rebel #009

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
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username "rebel" password "builder"
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-----------------------------------------------------------------

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:12 am**

Hi guys,

Ken, love the tip....

Bob, love the art work...

Jesse, love your logic but too late as I've already drilled all the holes...

Allen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jesse Jenks" <jessejenks@hotmail.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - Seat Rail Channels

Allen,
FWIW, I went with the old method of one channel centered under one side of
the seat rails. I know I will get some flak from some, but my reasons are
as
follows; Reviewing the archives shows the floor structure using the single
channel method has held up to crashes that required extensive rebuilding
of
other parts of the airplane due to high G "landings". The floor structure
should be able to collapse under your seat in a high G impact to help save
your back anyway. I used .025 (cutoff ends from bulkheads) single channels
under the rails. I have extra floor channels in other locations, so
overall
strength of the structure is not an issue, for example I have 8 single
channels between the carrythrough and the first bulkhead.
If the seatbelts were attached to the seat like some airplanes, then I
would
put some serious metal in the floor, but the floor really only needs to be
strong enough to keep your butt from hitting the ground.
Jesse

From: "apoulsen" <apoulsen@comcast.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - Seat Rail Channels
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 22:07:50 -0400

Hi Bob,

I'm installing the channels now and after comparing the width of the
channel flanges to the width of the seat rail I see a problem. If I drill
through the rail so as to have adequate edge distance in the flanges, I
can't get the tip of the rivet gun in place to pull the rivets. If I drill
the seat rail so that the rivet gun can pull the rivet I will barely catch
the edge of the flanges. How did you deal with this?

Thanks for the help.

Allen Poulsen
786R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <beep@sympatico.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 10:53 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - Seat Rail Channels

Hi Dave !

There are 2 reasons for fastening 2 channels to support the rails.
One is to give a wider top surface, so both rows of rivets are in
a flange, and the second is to make the whole thing stronger.

The 2 flanges together should give you lots of surface -
these channels are ST-28's or ST-31's ... they go like this:
][ ][ with epoxy & rivets thru the center web,
although some have done it the other way -- [] - although this
might not be as strong & easy as the former, both give extra
support to the rails. The first way puts the webs right under the
center of the rail.

--
......bobp
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.qbeautyzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Sunday 10 September 2006 10:52 pm, David L. Tuck wrote:
rivited

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