[rebel-builders] seat belt attachment

[KEITH OLIVER]

I went with 2 for my ELITE

Keith B. Oliver



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:25 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] seat belt attachment


Has anyone considered attaching the lap belt to the seat frame? I guess the
locking pins would become the weak point if you did that, but would the rest

of the structure be strong enough? It would eliminate the need for 3 heavy
attach points that apparantly rip out in a crash anyway. It would also have
the advantage of keeping the same seatbelt tension when you slide your seat.

I am not seriously considering this at this point, but I thought of it as a
way to get the belts around the hydraylic pump between the seats. My other
solution is to have 2 attach points between the seats, instead of one shared

one. They would be about 5 inches appart allowing the belts to go on either
side of the pump. I will have a 4 inch wide tunnel there for my cables, so
if I make the side channels of the tunnel from .032 then I guess It would be

as strong as the standard way with one bracket sandwiched between two .032
channels.
Does someone know in what way the brackets have failed? I.E. did the rivets
shear, or the structure break?
Thanks.
Jesse





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[Jesse Jenks]

Keith,
Do you have any pictures that you could post to the archives? How did you
modify the structure to accept them? I am debating weather or not I need
sandwiched .032 channels for each bracket, or if one for each will be
enough. I'm guessing one each, since the side attachments are not
sandwiched, or the ones for shoulder harnesses either for that matter.
On a related topic, has anyone used inertia reel shoulder harnesses?
Jesse

From: "KEITH OLIVER" <kb_oliver@verizon.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] seat belt attachment
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 18:23:48 -0400

I went with 2 for my ELITE

Keith B. Oliver



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:25 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] seat belt attachment


Has anyone considered attaching the lap belt to the seat frame? I guess the
locking pins would become the weak point if you did that, but would the
rest

of the structure be strong enough? It would eliminate the need for 3 heavy
attach points that apparantly rip out in a crash anyway. It would also have
the advantage of keeping the same seatbelt tension when you slide your
seat.

I am not seriously considering this at this point, but I thought of it as a
way to get the belts around the hydraylic pump between the seats. My other
solution is to have 2 attach points between the seats, instead of one
shared

one. They would be about 5 inches appart allowing the belts to go on either
side of the pump. I will have a 4 inch wide tunnel there for my cables, so
if I make the side channels of the tunnel from .032 then I guess It would
be

as strong as the standard way with one bracket sandwiched between two .032
channels.
Does someone know in what way the brackets have failed? I.E. did the rivets
shear, or the structure break?
Thanks.
Jesse





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[KEITH OLIVER]

No photos

I used 2 channels each
As to the reel harness all I know is that if improperly installed they can
do as much harm as good Compression injuries to the back and spinal cord
even in minor events or at least so I have been told


Keith B. Oliver



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 1:27 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] seat belt attachment


Keith,
Do you have any pictures that you could post to the archives? How did you
modify the structure to accept them? I am debating weather or not I need
sandwiched .032 channels for each bracket, or if one for each will be
enough. I'm guessing one each, since the side attachments are not
sandwiched, or the ones for shoulder harnesses either for that matter. On a
related topic, has anyone used inertia reel shoulder harnesses? Jesse

From: "KEITH OLIVER" <kb_oliver@verizon.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] seat belt attachment
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 18:23:48 -0400

I went with 2 for my ELITE

Keith B. Oliver



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Jesse Jenks
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:25 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] seat belt attachment


Has anyone considered attaching the lap belt to the seat frame? I guess
the locking pins would become the weak point if you did that, but would
the rest

of the structure be strong enough? It would eliminate the need for 3
heavy attach points that apparantly rip out in a crash anyway. It would
also have the advantage of keeping the same seatbelt tension when you
slide your seat.

I am not seriously considering this at this point, but I thought of it
as a way to get the belts around the hydraylic pump between the seats.
My other solution is to have 2 attach points between the seats, instead
of one shared

one. They would be about 5 inches appart allowing the belts to go on
either side of the pump. I will have a 4 inch wide tunnel there for my
cables, so if I make the side channels of the tunnel from .032 then I
guess It would be

as strong as the standard way with one bracket sandwiched between two
.032 channels. Does someone know in what way the brackets have failed?
I.E. did the rivets shear, or the structure break?
Thanks.
Jesse





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[Jesse Jenks]

Thanks for the info Keith.

From: "KEITH OLIVER" <kb_oliver@verizon.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] seat belt attachment
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:46:05 -0400

No photos

I used 2 channels each
As to the reel harness all I know is that if improperly installed they can
do as much harm as good Compression injuries to the back and spinal cord
even in minor events or at least so I have been told


Keith B. Oliver



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 1:27 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] seat belt attachment


Keith,
Do you have any pictures that you could post to the archives? How did you
modify the structure to accept them? I am debating weather or not I need
sandwiched .032 channels for each bracket, or if one for each will be
enough. I'm guessing one each, since the side attachments are not
sandwiched, or the ones for shoulder harnesses either for that matter. On a
related topic, has anyone used inertia reel shoulder harnesses? Jesse

From: "KEITH OLIVER" <kb_oliver@verizon.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] seat belt attachment
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 18:23:48 -0400

I went with 2 for my ELITE

Keith B. Oliver



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Jesse Jenks
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:25 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] seat belt attachment


Has anyone considered attaching the lap belt to the seat frame? I guess
the locking pins would become the weak point if you did that, but would
the rest

of the structure be strong enough? It would eliminate the need for 3
heavy attach points that apparantly rip out in a crash anyway. It would
also have the advantage of keeping the same seatbelt tension when you
slide your seat.

I am not seriously considering this at this point, but I thought of it
as a way to get the belts around the hydraylic pump between the seats.
My other solution is to have 2 attach points between the seats, instead
of one shared

one. They would be about 5 inches appart allowing the belts to go on
either side of the pump. I will have a 4 inch wide tunnel there for my
cables, so if I make the side channels of the tunnel from .032 then I
guess It would be

as strong as the standard way with one bracket sandwiched between two
.032 channels. Does someone know in what way the brackets have failed?
I.E. did the rivets shear, or the structure break?
Thanks.
Jesse





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[Ken]

I would argue that from a structural engineering aspect, the side
attachments are effectively "sandwiched" by virtue of 3/16" rivets
fastened into a box structure that is VERY resistant to bending and side
load failure. Similarly much of the center attachment point strength
comes from the channels being boxed into the floor structure. Seat belts
are not something that I would want to guess with considering their
proven effectiveness in a Rebel when done according to the manual.
Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:

Keith,
Do you have any pictures that you could post to the archives? How did you
modify the structure to accept them? I am debating weather or not I need
sandwiched .032 channels for each bracket, or if one for each will be
enough. I'm guessing one each, since the side attachments are not
sandwiched, or the ones for shoulder harnesses either for that matter.
On a related topic, has anyone used inertia reel shoulder harnesses?
Jesse

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[Jesse Jenks]

Ken,
I'll make sure they are at least as strong as the single center point
design, but wouldn't you agree that if I use 2 center attach points that
each one will only be subject to half the load of the original design?
Jesse

From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] seat belt attachment
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 19:28:03 -0400

I would argue that from a structural engineering aspect, the side
attachments are effectively "sandwiched" by virtue of 3/16" rivets
fastened into a box structure that is VERY resistant to bending and side
load failure. Similarly much of the center attachment point strength
comes from the channels being boxed into the floor structure. Seat belts
are not something that I would want to guess with considering their
proven effectiveness in a Rebel when done according to the manual.
Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:

Keith,
Do you have any pictures that you could post to the archives? How did

you

modify the structure to accept them? I am debating weather or not I need
sandwiched .032 channels for each bracket, or if one for each will be
enough. I'm guessing one each, since the side attachments are not
sandwiched, or the ones for shoulder harnesses either for that matter.
On a related topic, has anyone used inertia reel shoulder harnesses?
Jesse

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[Ken]

Maybe -or maybe not.
With two people, the side loads from the belt angle tend to cancel. With
one person the sideload due to belt angle will try to buckle the
attachment sideways so maybe for one person the attachment should be
almost as strong as if for two people. I am not in a position to
evaluate your design but I do urge you to be cautious. MAM's design
boxes the channels into the fuselage floor to make it strong sideways as
well as fore and aft. Granted the sideloads would generally not be
large as the angle on the belts is small. However a prang may involve
more than a straight ahead stop. A larger concern might be whether the
rivets shear or rip out during a prang. Notice that the sandwiched 1/8"
mounting bracket has those 3/16" rivets in double shear which makes them
twice as strong as they'd be with only one channel. ie. to rip the
bracket out of the channels, each rivet must shear in two places on
MAM's design.
Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:

Ken,
I'll make sure they are at least as strong as the single center point
design, but wouldn't you agree that if I use 2 center attach points that
each one will only be subject to half the load of the original design?
Jesse

From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] seat belt attachment
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 19:28:03 -0400

I would argue that from a structural engineering aspect, the side
attachments are effectively "sandwiched" by virtue of 3/16" rivets
fastened into a box structure that is VERY resistant to bending and side
load failure. Similarly much of the center attachment point strength
comes from the channels being boxed into the floor structure. Seat belts
are not something that I would want to guess with considering their
proven effectiveness in a Rebel when done according to the manual.
Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:

Keith,
Do you have any pictures that you could post to the archives? How did

you

modify the structure to accept them? I am debating weather or not I need
sandwiched .032 channels for each bracket, or if one for each will be
enough. I'm guessing one each, since the side attachments are not
sandwiched, or the ones for shoulder harnesses either for that matter.
On a related topic, has anyone used inertia reel shoulder harnesses?
Jesse

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[Jesse Jenks]

Ken,
Thanks for the insights. I'll definitely give it some serious thought.
Jesse

From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] seat belt attachment
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 21:36:31 -0400

Maybe -or maybe not.
With two people, the side loads from the belt angle tend to cancel. With
one person the sideload due to belt angle will try to buckle the
attachment sideways so maybe for one person the attachment should be
almost as strong as if for two people. I am not in a position to
evaluate your design but I do urge you to be cautious. MAM's design
boxes the channels into the fuselage floor to make it strong sideways as
well as fore and aft. Granted the sideloads would generally not be
large as the angle on the belts is small. However a prang may involve
more than a straight ahead stop. A larger concern might be whether the
rivets shear or rip out during a prang. Notice that the sandwiched 1/8"
mounting bracket has those 3/16" rivets in double shear which makes them
twice as strong as they'd be with only one channel. ie. to rip the
bracket out of the channels, each rivet must shear in two places on
MAM's design.
Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:

Ken,
I'll make sure they are at least as strong as the single center point
design, but wouldn't you agree that if I use 2 center attach points that
each one will only be subject to half the load of the original design?
Jesse

From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] seat belt attachment
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 19:28:03 -0400

I would argue that from a structural engineering aspect, the side
attachments are effectively "sandwiched" by virtue of 3/16" rivets
fastened into a box structure that is VERY resistant to bending and side
load failure. Similarly much of the center attachment point strength
comes from the channels being boxed into the floor structure. Seat belts
are not something that I would want to guess with considering their
proven effectiveness in a Rebel when done according to the manual.
Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:
you

need

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