The Murphy Builders Site

Randy
Off the top of my head I believe it is somewheres around 3" min up and 2 1\2
down. Stephane gave me the figures but I can't find the exact ones. These
are roughly where they shud be but maybe some one on the list could be a bit
more precise.

Steve W

From: RLSibert@aol.com
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders-d@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Rebel ailerons
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 18:32:11 EDT

Hi everyone, I'm new on the rebel forum and was wondering if I could get
some education on rigging the ailerons on my rebel. I've got them giving
me
pretty close to the same deflection on both sides but it is not near the
amount
talked about in the manual. Where they give a measured distance from the
trailing edge I've been using a smart level. I'm getting 7.5 to 8 degs. up
and
down (no differential). As much surface that's being moved I'm wondering
if
that would be enough? Could someone let me know the deflection they're
getting
and if what I'm getting is not enough maybe some input as how I could get
more
without starting over on the plane!
Any help on this would be muchly appreciated.
Thanks,
Randy


my address is _rlsibert@aol.com_ (mailto:rlsibert@aol.com)




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Hey Steve, thanks for the input. Those measurements are a bit more realistic
to what I'm getting. I must say your info makes me breath a bit easier!
Thanks again for the response.
Randy




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This question reminded me that I had an aileron comment. On the Super Rebel
the flaps are tied to the ailerons to give some aileron droop when extending
the flaps. I have heard comments that it would be nice to not have that
happen under crosswind conditions because the ailerons aren't as responsive
when drooped. I have a roof mounted flap system and aileron droop is
achieved via a servo, separate from the flaps. Looking at the aileron
deflection when drooped it occurred to me that the ailerons should be MORE
effective in rolling the plane when drooped. The problem is that the upward
deflection of the lower wing aileron in a turn is reduced, or even
eliminated when fully drooped, and adverse yaw is not being countered as
much or not at all. This requires more rudder to correct, hence the problem
with crosswind conditions. If the crosswind is strong enough you might run
out of rudder needed to maintain your ground track with the runway
centerline. This should be established on final approach and less flaps or
an alternate airport should be sought. Kinda glad that I can choose whether
or not to droop my ailerons.

Also, except when drooped, I don't see differential aileron deflection.
I.e., normally the upward deflected aileron should be less deflected than
the downward one. When not drooped my ailerons seem to deflect about the
same up and down. When I start flying I may be able to fiddle with aileron
droop to find the sweet spot where the least amount of rudder is needed for
standard rate turns and then I can mark that spot on my aileron droop
indicator. But, if I do that, the ailerons are bound to be drooped a little
bit when straight and level creating unwanted drag. How do you get
differential ailerons without that happening? The only thing I can think of
is that the upper surface of the aileron is angled down towards the flat
bottom surface. That does effectively reduce the angle between the upper
surface of the raised aileron and the relative wind compared to the bottom
surface of the lowered aileron.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
RLSibert@aol.com
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 10:45 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel ailerons

Hey Steve, thanks for the input. Those measurements are a bit more
realistic
to what I'm getting. I must say your info makes me breath a bit easier!
Thanks again for the response.
Randy




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Randy,

I seem to remember extensive discussions on this in the archives
within the past year or so.

John...



At 12:12 PM 8/14/2006, steve whitenect wrote:

Randy
Off the top of my head I believe it is somewheres around 3" min up and 2 1\2
down. Stephane gave me the figures but I can't find the exact ones. These
are roughly where they shud be but maybe some one on the list could be a bit
more precise.

Steve W

From: RLSibert@aol.com
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders-d@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Rebel ailerons
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 18:32:11 EDT

Hi everyone, I'm new on the rebel forum and was wondering if I could get
some education on rigging the ailerons on my rebel. I've got them giving
me
pretty close to the same deflection on both sides but it is not near the
amount
talked about in the manual. Where they give a measured distance from the
trailing edge I've been using a smart level. I'm getting 7.5 to 8 degs. up
and
down (no differential). As much surface that's being moved I'm wondering
if
that would be enough? Could someone let me know the deflection they're
getting
and if what I'm getting is not enough maybe some input as how I could get
more
without starting over on the plane!
Any help on this would be muchly appreciated.
Thanks,
Randy


my address is _rlsibert@aol.com_ (mailto:rlsibert@aol.com)




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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fly too low or too slow and the ground will rise up and smite thee.






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Thanks John, I'll check it out.
Randy




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Will try to remember to measure for you but 3" and 3.5" sounds familiar.
It is in the archives if you can find it. Mine do not have differential
movement and yes it is what I would call a "rudder" airplane especially
with flaperons down. I don't think differential movement would be
realistic when drooped anyway.
Ken

RLSibert@aol.com wrote:

Hi everyone, I'm new on the rebel forum and was wondering if I could get
some education on rigging the ailerons on my rebel. I've got them giving me
pretty close to the same deflection on both sides but it is not near the amount
talked about in the manual. Where they give a measured distance from the
trailing edge I've been using a smart level. I'm getting 7.5 to 8 degs. up and
down (no differential). As much surface that's being moved I'm wondering if
that would be enough? Could someone let me know the deflection they're getting
and if what I'm getting is not enough maybe some input as how I could get more
without starting over on the plane!
Any help on this would be muchly appreciated.
Thanks, Randy


my address is _rlsibert@aol.com_ (mailto:rlsibert@aol.com)

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Thanks for the feedback Ken. I talked to Bob P. today, he helped with some
info and informed me that what I'm trying to find is probably in the
archives. Being new here I didn't intend to open old wounds, but I've been feeling
like a dog chasing his tail. Something's not quite kosher with my push-pull
tubes, bell cranks, or something and I just have to chase it down. While
figuring out what is and isn't believable in the manual!
Thanks again for your
help,

Randy





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Randy
No old wounds or anything applies so keep asking til you're comfortable.
There are a several numbers floating around though and the discussion
has come up a few times. I can't find anything in my personal files. I'm
pretty sure MAM also answers this in their FAQ if it is still on their
web site but not sure that number is accurate either. If you only have
8 degrees (less than 2" of deflection at the trailing edge) you
definately should have more. I know I have at least 3" to 3.5" but I
hate to just guess for you. The up 20* and down 40* mentioned in the
building manual is way more than you actually get in service.
Ken

RLSibert@aol.com wrote:

Thanks for the feedback Ken. I talked to Bob P. today, he helped with some
info and informed me that what I'm trying to find is probably in the
archives. Being new here I didn't intend to open old wounds, but I've been feeling
like a dog chasing his tail. Something's not quite kosher with my push-pull
tubes, bell cranks, or something and I just have to chase it down. While
figuring out what is and isn't believable in the manual!
Thanks again for your
help,

Randy

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Hi guys: - Just to pass along my info from Rebel 652 - built to the book,
this is what I ended up with. - Ailerons - 16 deg up (3.94"), 11 deg down
(2.69"), Flaps - 1st pos. 5 deg (1 1/4") 2nd pos 12 deg (3"), 3rd pos. 20
deg (4 3/4"), Elevator - up 24 deg (5 3/4"), down 13 deg (3"), rudder
right - 23 deg. (5 3/8"), rudder left 24 deg. (5 5/8") Note all dimensions
where from trailing edges measured from a neutral position. This is what I
got after completion and this is what I flew with. All worked great. Hope
this helps. Bob J Rebel 192/731
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel ailerons

Randy
No old wounds or anything applies so keep asking til you're comfortable.
There are a several numbers floating around though and the discussion
has come up a few times. I can't find anything in my personal files. I'm
pretty sure MAM also answers this in their FAQ if it is still on their
web site but not sure that number is accurate either. If you only have
8 degrees (less than 2" of deflection at the trailing edge) you
definately should have more. I know I have at least 3" to 3.5" but I
hate to just guess for you. The up 20* and down 40* mentioned in the
building manual is way more than you actually get in service.
Ken

RLSibert@aol.com wrote:

Thanks for the feedback Ken. I talked to Bob P. today, he helped with
some
info and informed me that what I'm trying to find is probably in the
archives. Being new here I didn't intend to open old wounds, but I've been
feeling
like a dog chasing his tail. Something's not quite kosher with my
push-pull
tubes, bell cranks, or something and I just have to chase it down. While
figuring out what is and isn't believable in the manual!
Thanks again for your
help,

Randy

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Hey Bob, thanks a bunch! It's good to see real numbers from a flying
plane. Now that I've got this info I've got to figure out why I'm not getting
anywhere near these numbers. (for the ailerons that is, elevator and rudder are
fine) So far I'm getting 2" up and down.
Thanks for the info,

Randy




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Roland,

Yes you can cover the ailerons, as done on the Elite. But then you have to
balance the ailerons as well..... so we have aluminum skins = more weight
and lead for balance of ailerons = more weight....... don't think it's quite
worth the extra effort, unless you want to fly heavy.

Cheers,
Jeff


On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 5:32 AM, Roland Kriening <kriening@rogers.com>wrote:

I know this has probably been discussed at length but I just had to ask.
Couldn't find anything in the archives.

I was walking by my uncovered ailerons, and thought to myself - such a
small
area to be left uncovered by aluminum. Has anyone skinned the ailerons in
thin aluminum (.20) as opposed to fabric. I know this is done on the Elite.
Will the weight make them unmanageable?

Roland
R56









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All a personal choice.. like everything.

I bought an aluminum airplane to avoid the hangar rash and cow eating
possibilities!! Mine are aluminum and yes the con is the counterbalance
weights. The .016 covering.. not a big difference compared to the fabric and
it's multi coats of polybrush/polyspray, it's the lead you need to balance
them that's gonna cost you a couple gallons of useful fuel. You can keep
that to a minimum if you get creative with the moment arm.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Micheal" <westcoastkitplanes@gmail.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Ailerons

Roland,

Yes you can cover the ailerons, as done on the Elite. But then you have
to
balance the ailerons as well..... so we have aluminum skins = more weight
and lead for balance of ailerons = more weight....... don't think it's
quite
worth the extra effort, unless you want to fly heavy.

Cheers,
Jeff


On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 5:32 AM, Roland Kriening
<kriening@rogers.com>wrote:

I know this has probably been discussed at length but I just had to ask.
Couldn't find anything in the archives.

I was walking by my uncovered ailerons, and thought to myself - such a
small
area to be left uncovered by aluminum. Has anyone skinned the ailerons in
thin aluminum (.20) as opposed to fabric. I know this is done on the
Elite.
Will the weight make them unmanageable?

Roland
R56









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Wayne: Due to poor fabric woork by a previous owner I must recover
the wing control surfaces. I am considering .016" aluminum. You stated
in your last port "a couple gallone of usful fuel", which would equate
to approximately 12 lb. I relize that you were not speaking literally, but
is that a close estimate of the weight?

Thank you
Keith P. 318R


On 1/26/2010 11:33 AM, oifa@irishfield.on.ca wrote to rebel-builders:

-> All a personal choice.. like everything.
->
-> I bought an aluminum airplane to avoid the hangar rash and cow eating
-> possibilities!! Mine are aluminum and yes the con is the counterbalance
-> weights. The .016 covering.. not a big difference compared to the fabric
and
-> it's multi coats of polybrush/polyspray, it's the lead you need to balance
-> them that's gonna cost you a couple gallons of useful fuel. You can keep
-> that to a minimum if you get creative with the moment arm.
->
-> ----- Original Message -----
-> From: "Jeff Micheal" <westcoastkitplanes@gmail.com>
-> To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
-> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 3:10 PM
-> Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Ailerons
->
->
-> > Roland,
-> >
-> > Yes you can cover the ailerons, as done on the Elite. But then you
have
-> > to
-> > balance the ailerons as well..... so we have aluminum skins = more
weight
-> > and lead for balance of ailerons = more weight....... don't think it's
-> > quite
-> > worth the extra effort, unless you want to fly heavy.
-> >
-> > Cheers,
-> > Jeff
-> >
-> >
-> > On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 5:32 AM, Roland Kriening
-> > <kriening@rogers.com>wrote:
-> >
-> >> I know this has probably been discussed at length but I just had to ask.
-> >> Couldn't find anything in the archives.
-> >>
-> >> I was walking by my uncovered ailerons, and thought to myself - such a
-> >> small
-> >> area to be left uncovered by aluminum. Has anyone skinned the
ailerons in
-> >> thin aluminum (.20) as opposed to fabric. I know this is done on the
-> >> Elite.
-> >> Will the weight make them unmanageable?
-> >>
-> >> Roland
-> >> R56
-> >>
-> >>
-> >>
-> >>
-> >>
-> >>
-> >>
-> >>
-> >>
-> >> -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> >> List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
-> >> username "rebel" password "builder"
-> >> Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
-> >> List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> >> -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> >>
-> >>
-> >>
-> >>
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> > List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
-> > username "rebel" password "builder"
-> > Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
-> > List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
->
->




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I forget exactly what it was Keith.. but that's pretty close.. might be
closer to 14.

That said... the fabric covered flaperons are a tad lighter on the stick
than mine are... I'd have to give it some good deep thought, knowing that,
before I covered them in aluminum again!

----- Original Message -----
From: <kpierson@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Ailerons

Wayne: Due to poor fabric woork by a previous owner I must recover
the wing control surfaces. I am considering .016" aluminum. You stated
in your last port "a couple gallone of usful fuel", which would equate
to approximately 12 lb. I relize that you were not speaking literally, but
is that a close estimate of the weight?

Thank you
Keith P. 318R


On 1/26/2010 11:33 AM, oifa@irishfield.on.ca wrote to rebel-builders:

-> All a personal choice.. like everything.
->
-> I bought an aluminum airplane to avoid the hangar rash and cow eating
-> possibilities!! Mine are aluminum and yes the con is the counterbalance
-> weights. The .016 covering.. not a big difference compared to the
fabric
and
-> it's multi coats of polybrush/polyspray, it's the lead you need to
balance
-> them that's gonna cost you a couple gallons of useful fuel. You can
keep
-> that to a minimum if you get creative with the moment arm.
->
-> ----- Original Message -----
-> From: "Jeff Micheal" <westcoastkitplanes@gmail.com>
-> To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
-> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 3:10 PM
-> Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Ailerons
->
->
-> > Roland,
-> >
-> > Yes you can cover the ailerons, as done on the Elite. But then you
have
-> > to
-> > balance the ailerons as well..... so we have aluminum skins = more
weight
-> > and lead for balance of ailerons = more weight....... don't think
it's
-> > quite
-> > worth the extra effort, unless you want to fly heavy.
-> >
-> > Cheers,
-> > Jeff
-> >
-> >
-> > On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 5:32 AM, Roland Kriening
-> > <kriening@rogers.com>wrote:
-> >
-> >> I know this has probably been discussed at length but I just had to
ask.
-> >> Couldn't find anything in the archives.
-> >>
-> >> I was walking by my uncovered ailerons, and thought to myself - such
a
-> >> small
-> >> area to be left uncovered by aluminum. Has anyone skinned the
ailerons in
-> >> thin aluminum (.20) as opposed to fabric. I know this is done on the
-> >> Elite.
-> >> Will the weight make them unmanageable?
-> >>
-> >> Roland
-> >> R56
-> >>
-> >>
-> >>
-> >>
-> >>
-> >>
-> >>
-> >>
-> >>
-> >> -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> >> List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
-> >> username "rebel" password "builder"
-> >> Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
-> >> List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> >> -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> >>
-> >>
-> >>
-> >>
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> > List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
-> > username "rebel" password "builder"
-> > Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
-> > List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
->
->




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