[rebel-builders] Seats and seat cushions - Again

[Ken]

Gary Gustafson wrote:

I have read the Rebel Archives about seats and seat cushions, but do
not seem to find any consensus of opinion and in the process have
become concerned about my seats. What I found out was:

1. MAM's seat backs break and the rivet hole. There is a suggestion
to put the Aluminum on backwards to prevent breaking from occurring
and then I read that Wayne's seat broke while at tied down. Do
past builders now agree that the Aluminum should be put on
backwards? Mine are not!

If you rivet (not everyone does) I recommend wrapping the material
around the tube and riveting on the side of the tube. the side is not
stressed during for and aft seat flexing. I copied someone else's idea
and am very pleased with Obus forme seat backs instead of foam in the
seatback.

2. The second thing I found out is that there have been two sizes of
seat frames - low and high backs. My plane is #242 and I suspect
that I have low backs. Are the failures from high back or low
back MAM frames?

I believe both have had failures. There are two versions of the lowback
seatbacks and both of those have definately had failures. Early ones
were supposed to be modded with some triangular bracing. Low backs are
rectangular with a horizontal top whereas highbacks are an inverted V at
the top.

3. There is a lot of discussion in about using ConforFoam (3 densities/
3 inches) in the bottom, 2 densities/2 inches in the back. What is the
Foam backing on the MAM leather seats? Does MAM use ConforFoam? I need a
lot of padding and like the idea of different densities to support the
load (no I am not fat, just big).

Confor is mostly beneficial on the seat. It also depends on whether you
live up North or down South as to the densities. In Ontario I used 1" of
one density and 2" of the other rather than 3 densities that is often
recommended in hotter regions. I used pink and blue but no green. Oh and
I added some wedges for thigh support and to keep from sliding out
sideways. Once you sit in a confor foam seat for a day - nothing else
will do!

4. Are the MAM seats about equivalent to the Oregon Aero seats? What is
the thickness of the bottom seats - 3 inches? Are they made up of
varying densities?

5. What sort of bracing (or possibly frame size) have people settled on
for the seat backs to prevent breaking?

I added triangular bracing from the bottom to as high up on the side
tubes as I could.

6. It seams that for the cost that the MAM leather seats are reasonable
If there is enough padding? Any comments.

I don't like leather but I think MAM also has cloth upholstery kits
available. Sheepskin is the very best IMO.
Ken

This is a lot of questions but if one reads the old archives, there seems to
be good cause for concern. I do not want my seat flopping back during
flight. Appreciate any and all comments.

Gary Gustafson
Rebel #242

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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Gary !

Comments mixed in below .....

....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Saturday 20 May 2006 01:57 am, Gary Gustafson wrote:

I have read the Rebel Archives about seats and seat cushions, but do
not seem to find any consensus of opinion and in the process have
become concerned about my seats. What I found out was:

1. MAM's seat backs break and the rivet hole. There is a suggestion
to put the Aluminum on backwards to prevent breaking from occurring
and then I read that Wayne's seat broke while at tied down. Do
past builders now agree that the Aluminum should be put on
backwards? Mine are not!

<I> would NEVER use rivets for the seat - I believe it would
weaken the tubes more than I'd like ! I agree with Ken's suggestion -
wrap the aluminum sheet around the vertical tubes & rivet it to itself.
BUT - better still - DO NOT use aluminum sheet ! It's heavy and hard !
My seats were done by a professional upholsterer who insisted that I
use heavy upholstery burlap to make wrap-around slings for the seat and
back - they were sewn in place with an industrial machine, and are fine,
after 10 years of use, and VERY much more comfortable than aluminum !

The layers of foam are not necessarily Comfor (except for the top
1" or 2" layer) - can be different densities of readily-available,
less-expensive upholstery foam. I DO like the seat bottom to be at least
6" to 8" high, or more - should be above the door frame, to avoid having
the seat belt bracket raise your voice a couple of octaves every time
you get in or out ! ;-) The higher seat bottom also greatly improves
forward vision & comfort.

Definitely DO cut wedges for the sides, on the back & bottom -
the difference in comfort is amazing !

2. The second thing I found out is that there have been two sizes of
seat frames - low and high backs. My plane is #242 and I suspect
that I have low backs. Are the failures from high back or low
back MAM frames?

The high backs have a 'bump' in the middle at the top - no biggie !
I don't notice much of a difference with either - mine are the low backs.
Failures were mostly on early ones that didn't have triangular side braces,
and even then it took some abuse - of course, drilling all those rivet holes
wouldn't help !! ;-) Yours are likely OK - BUT - I would chuck them
if they have a bunch of rivet holes holding aluminum sheet - see above.

3. There is a lot of discussion in about using ConforFoam (3 densities/
3 inches) in the bottom, 2 densities/2 inches in the back. What is the
Foam backing on the MAM leather seats? Does MAM use ConforFoam? I need a
lot of padding and like the idea of different densities to support the
load (no I am not fat, just big).

Believe Murphy just uses upholstery foam. The leather seats in the
factory Moose were comfortable on long trips - like across the country !
I always added a 2 or 3" pillow, though, for more height & improved
visibility --- and I'm about 5' 10" + ..... I noticed that the other
factory pilots continued to use the cushion that I left .... :-)

4. Are the MAM seats about equivalent to the Oregon Aero seats? What is
the thickness of the bottom seats - 3 inches? Are they made up of
varying densities?

Probably not - see above.

5. What sort of bracing (or possibly frame size) have people settled on
for the seat backs to prevent breaking?

You could add extra side gussets, if you want....

6. It seams that for the cost that the MAM leather seats are reasonable
If there is enough padding? Any comments.

See above ...

I prefer a seat with leather or Naugahyde on the sides, with a cloth
center - the Naugahyde for wear resistance, and the cloth for cooler flying !
Not really much more work to make, and really work well. You can have a
Rebel logo embroidered into the cloth to dress it up, too !
Think I put some pics in the archives - if not, I can dig some up.
Don't forget to get extra Naugahyde to make up a 'curtain' to velcro on
at the back of the baggage area. It stops small bits from trickling down
to the tail, and stops noise & drafts too !

Keep rivetting - IT IS WORTH IT !!! :-)

This is a lot of questions but if one reads the old archives, there seems
to be good cause for concern. I do not want my seat flopping back during
flight. Appreciate any and all comments.

Gary Gustafson
Rebel #242




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[Gary Gustafson]

Thanks for the many good responses in regard to seats. Looks as if I
have some more work on the seat frames to increase their strength and
I will start looking for someone to make my seats out of Conforfoam
a website ( http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/msg03273.html )from
a Dave Brown.
Looks to be a good source of foam. Guess I will get some custom made
seats made out of conforfoam or would be interested in finding out what
Oregon Aero charges.

Thanks again for the replies.
Gary Gustafson #242
___________________________
Found a source in Wichita Kansas that seems to have good prices for
Temperfoam/Conforfoam.

Buckley Industries
1-800-835-2779
Ask for Theresa

I bought...

1 full sheet 1"x36"x80" of soft (pink).
1 full sheet 1"x36"x80" of medium (blue).
1 half sheet 1"x36"x40" of firm (green).

Price for foam...$269.00 + @50.00 to ship to FL.

This price worked out to be over $200.00 cheaper than others quoted to me.

This should come close to doing all my seats. They sent the
stuff straight to the guy who does the seats for Velocity in Fla.

I'll let you know how it worked out.

As does many others, Buckley sells more to the big guys. Try to keep calls
limited to mainly ordering. For Conforfoam info see
http://www.seatfoam.com/
This is Jim Fix's site.

Dave Brown

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 11:02 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Seats and seat cushions - Again

Gary Gustafson wrote:

I have read the Rebel Archives about seats and seat cushions, but do
not seem to find any consensus of opinion and in the process have
become concerned about my seats. What I found out was:

1. MAM's seat backs break and the rivet hole. There is a suggestion
to put the Aluminum on backwards to prevent breaking from occurring
and then I read that Wayne's seat broke while at tied down. Do
past builders now agree that the Aluminum should be put on
backwards? Mine are not!

If you rivet (not everyone does) I recommend wrapping the material
around the tube and riveting on the side of the tube. the side is not
stressed during for and aft seat flexing. I copied someone else's idea
and am very pleased with Obus forme seat backs instead of foam in the
seatback.

2. The second thing I found out is that there have been two sizes of
seat frames - low and high backs. My plane is #242 and I suspect
that I have low backs. Are the failures from high back or low
back MAM frames?

I believe both have had failures. There are two versions of the lowback
seatbacks and both of those have definately had failures. Early ones
were supposed to be modded with some triangular bracing. Low backs are
rectangular with a horizontal top whereas highbacks are an inverted V at
the top.

3. There is a lot of discussion in about using ConforFoam (3 densities/
3 inches) in the bottom, 2 densities/2 inches in the back. What is the
Foam backing on the MAM leather seats? Does MAM use ConforFoam? I need a
lot of padding and like the idea of different densities to support the
load (no I am not fat, just big).

Confor is mostly beneficial on the seat. It also depends on whether you
live up North or down South as to the densities. In Ontario I used 1" of
one density and 2" of the other rather than 3 densities that is often
recommended in hotter regions. I used pink and blue but no green. Oh and
I added some wedges for thigh support and to keep from sliding out
sideways. Once you sit in a confor foam seat for a day - nothing else
will do!

4. Are the MAM seats about equivalent to the Oregon Aero seats? What is
the thickness of the bottom seats - 3 inches? Are they made up of
varying densities?

5. What sort of bracing (or possibly frame size) have people settled on
for the seat backs to prevent breaking?

I added triangular bracing from the bottom to as high up on the side
tubes as I could.

6. It seams that for the cost that the MAM leather seats are reasonable
If there is enough padding? Any comments.

I don't like leather but I think MAM also has cloth upholstery kits
available. Sheepskin is the very best IMO.
Ken

This is a lot of questions but if one reads the old archives, there seems

to

be good cause for concern. I do not want my seat flopping back during
flight. Appreciate any and all comments.

Gary Gustafson
Rebel #242

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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Gary !

FWIW, it only cost somewhere between $1,500 and $1,000 CAD for
a complete custom Rebel interior, including seats, door panels, and
a 'curtain' for the back of the baggage area - installed, on site !!
There's a mobile guy here in Oshawa area who drives out & does the
work at your hangar, using quality, colour co-ordinated fabric &
Naugahyde ! There are others here in Southern Ontario - there
must be a few down your way too .... Good luck !

.......bobp
-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Sunday 21 May 2006 06:39 pm, Gary Gustafson wrote:

Thanks for the many good responses in regard to seats. Looks as if I
have some more work on the seat frames to increase their strength and
I will start looking for someone to make my seats out of Conforfoam
a website ( http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/msg03273.html )from
a Dave Brown.
Looks to be a good source of foam. Guess I will get some custom made
seats made out of conforfoam or would be interested in finding out what
Oregon Aero charges.

Thanks again for the replies.
Gary Gustafson #242

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[Drew Dalgleish]

At 02:39 PM 5/21/2006 -0400, you wrote:

Thanks for the many good responses in regard to seats. Looks as if I
have some more work on the seat frames to increase their strength and
I will start looking for someone to make my seats out of Conforfoam
a website ( http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/msg03273.html )from
a Dave Brown.
Looks to be a good source of foam. Guess I will get some custom made
seats made out of conforfoam or would be interested in finding out what
Oregon Aero charges.

Thanks again for the replies.
Gary Gustafson #242

Heres an airplane upholstery 101 for ya Gary

http://www.bitchin-stitchin.com/trimtips.htm
Drew



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