The Murphy Builders Site

As I start work on my ailerons I can't help but wonder, Why an aluminum
and fabric combination instead of all aluminum? Just thinking about it
from a maintenance standpoint, with all aluminum I never have to worry
about a fabric replacement and painting.

Any one tried all aluminum ailerons or have any comments?

Terry

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Terry, to save me typing it all over again I have forwarded info I just
recently sent to another builder! Aluminum flaperons/ailerons must be
balance 100%plus, to avoid the potential for flutter. It is felt that fabric
surfaces are much less prone to flutter and therefore the reason Murphy
designed this way. I covered mine in aluminum in 1994! Have done all
aircraft since with fabric.

Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne G. O'Shea <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: Mike Jones <Mike.Jones@agra.com>
Date: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: rebel aileron covering

Hello Mike,

I used .016" 6061-T6 to cover my flaperons. One full sheet(4X12) sheared
into eight - 1' X 6' pieces allows them to be overlapped and joined at the
center. Don't forget that they must be counter balanced to avoid possible
flutter problems. I didn't want fabric on my aluminum aircraft either and
was the first to go this route. Don't know of any others that have covered
in aluminum to this date! (do you) You do not want to cover until you have
the flaperons assembled to the wing and have the tips and root gap filler

in

place. This is so you can do the overlap at the center hinge and fill the
gaps between the flaperon and the tip and the flaperon and the root gap
filler. No sense loosing any lift!

Now that I have been flying the other Rebel with fabric flaperons, I do
prefer the stick feel with it however (lighter forces). This is probably
only because of the counter weights on mine hanging down into the wind and
effecting the stick forces.(I haven't gotten brave(or stupid) enough to
remove them for a comparison flight) If you can come up with a better way

to

counterbalance (lead in the leading edge of the flaperon maybe) so as not

to

effect the stick forces, I would think the stick forces would be the same

as

fabric flaperons. Also keep in mind that I had to use approx. 8 pounds on
each flaperon to balance 100%+, and the weight is a fair distance ahead of
the pivot point. So I have added 16 pounds, plus the small increase of

using

the aluminum instead of fabric. Also, if you were to put the lead in the
leading edge of the flaperon, it would take considerably more weight to
balance them. Fabric starting to sound good now???? Something to give some
serious thought too, and does not have to be done until the very last

minute

after you have assembled you aircraft.

Time wise, it takes almost the identical length of time to do the fabric as
it does to drill, debur, chromate and rivet the aluminum.

Hope this helps,

Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Jones <Mike.Jones@agra.com>
To: oifa@irishfield.on.ca <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
Date: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 1:46 PM
Subject: rebel aileron covering

Hi Wayne

What tickness of aluminum did you use on your ailerons, i dont want

fabric,

mike

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The reason they're fabric covered is the same reason Mustangs, Spitfires,
and DC-3s had fabric covered control surfaces - you avoid FLUTTER !!
Having your ailerons come off in flight is NO FUN !! ;-)

Seriously, you could cover them in metal, but you must add about 16 lb.
of mass balance forward, which can be ugly, add drag, and be a hazard to
your head on walkarounds ! It has been done - right Wayne ?? :-)

If you apply a good layer of silver dope, you will keep the sun off
the fabric, and it will last forever ....

As you so often see on this list "just build it by the book - you'll
just LOVE the finished Rebel !!"

.....bobp

------------------------------orig.-----------------------------------------
At 08:17 PM 1/25/00 EST, you wrote:

As I start work on my ailerons I can't help but wonder, Why an aluminum
and fabric combination instead of all aluminum? Just thinking about it
from a maintenance standpoint, with all aluminum I never have to worry
about a fabric replacement and painting.

Any one tried all aluminum ailerons or have any comments?

Terry

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That is right Bob,

I have knocked my self out at least twice on the counterweights and awoken
on the hanger floor!!!

(But the aluminum is much nicer in appearance)

Wayne

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 11:43 PM
Subject: Re: All metal ailerons - Rebel??

The reason they're fabric covered is the same reason Mustangs,

Spitfires,

and DC-3s had fabric covered control surfaces - you avoid FLUTTER !!
Having your ailerons come off in flight is NO FUN !! ;-)

Seriously, you could cover them in metal, but you must add about 16 lb.
of mass balance forward, which can be ugly, add drag, and be a hazard to
your head on walkarounds ! It has been done - right Wayne ?? :-)

If you apply a good layer of silver dope, you will keep the sun off
the fabric, and it will last forever ....

As you so often see on this list "just build it by the book - you'll
just LOVE the finished Rebel !!"

.....bobp

------------------------------orig.----------------------------------------

-

At 08:17 PM 1/25/00 EST, you wrote:

As I start work on my ailerons I can't help but wonder, Why an aluminum
and fabric combination instead of all aluminum? Just thinking about it
from a maintenance standpoint, with all aluminum I never have to worry
about a fabric replacement and painting.

Any one tried all aluminum ailerons or have any comments?

Terry

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Archives located at:
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*----------------------------------------------------*

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Archives located at:
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Check with MAM the Elite's are all metal?
Doug in Reno

At 11:23 PM 1/25/2000 -0500, you wrote:

The reason they're fabric covered is the same reason Mustangs, Spitfires,
and DC-3s had fabric covered control surfaces - you avoid FLUTTER !!
Having your ailerons come off in flight is NO FUN !! ;-)

Seriously, you could cover them in metal, but you must add about 16 lb.
of mass balance forward, which can be ugly, add drag, and be a hazard to
your head on walkarounds ! It has been done - right Wayne ?? :-)

If you apply a good layer of silver dope, you will keep the sun off
the fabric, and it will last forever ....

As you so often see on this list "just build it by the book - you'll
just LOVE the finished Rebel !!"

.....bobp

------------------------------orig.-----------------------------------------
At 08:17 PM 1/25/00 EST, you wrote:

As I start work on my ailerons I can't help but wonder, Why an aluminum
and fabric combination instead of all aluminum? Just thinking about it
from a maintenance standpoint, with all aluminum I never have to worry
about a fabric replacement and painting.

Any one tried all aluminum ailerons or have any comments?

Terry

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
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Archives located at:
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Doug Martin
greyghost@powernet.net
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Thanks for the input Wayne and Bob.

Bob, I appreciate your "build it by the book" commentary but I have to
run my ideas out for discussion when they come up. Hate to pass up an
opportunity because I didn't question an idea. (And, I didn't take your
comment personal. Just wanted to let you know where I was coming from.)

Terry
-

you'llbuild it to the book" On Tue, 25 Jan 2000 23:23:35 -0500 Bob

Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com> writes:

The reason they're fabric covered is the same reason Mustangs,
Spitfires,
and DC-3s had fabric covered control surfaces - you avoid FLUTTER !!
Having your ailerons come off in flight is NO FUN !! ;-)

Seriously, you could cover them in metal, but you must add about
16 lb.
of mass balance forward, which can be ugly, add drag, and be a
hazard to
your head on walkarounds ! It has been done - right Wayne ??
:-)

If you apply a good layer of silver dope, you will keep the sun
off
the fabric, and it will last forever ....

As you so often see on this list "just build it by the book -
you'll
just LOVE the finished Rebel !!"

.....bobp

------------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
---

At 08:17 PM 1/25/00 EST, you wrote:

As I start work on my ailerons I can't help but wonder, Why an

aluminum

and fabric combination instead of all aluminum? Just thinking

about it

from a maintenance standpoint, with all aluminum I never have to

worry

about a fabric replacement and painting.

Any one tried all aluminum ailerons or have any comments?

Terry

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
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Archives located at:
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*----------------------------------------------------*

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I agree completely !! That's what this forum is for - we throw out
ideas & all learn something. It's not the first time this suggestion has
come up, and I'm sure it will continue to surface - shows people are
looking for ways to improve the Rebel !!

......bobp

------------------------------orig.-----------------------------------------
At 06:04 PM 1/26/00 EST, you wrote:

Thanks for the input Wayne and Bob.

Bob, I appreciate your "build it by the book" commentary but I have to
run my ideas out for discussion when they come up. Hate to pass up an
opportunity because I didn't question an idea. (And, I didn't take your
comment personal. Just wanted to let you know where I was coming from.)

Terry
-

you'llbuild it to the book" On Tue, 25 Jan 2000 23:23:35 -0500 Bob

Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com> writes:

The reason they're fabric covered is the same reason Mustangs,
Spitfires,
and DC-3s had fabric covered control surfaces - you avoid FLUTTER !!
Having your ailerons come off in flight is NO FUN !! ;-)

Seriously, you could cover them in metal, but you must add about
16 lb.
of mass balance forward, which can be ugly, add drag, and be a
hazard to
your head on walkarounds ! It has been done - right Wayne ??
:-)

If you apply a good layer of silver dope, you will keep the sun
off
the fabric, and it will last forever ....

As you so often see on this list "just build it by the book -
you'll
just LOVE the finished Rebel !!"

.....bobp

------------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
---

At 08:17 PM 1/25/00 EST, you wrote:

As I start work on my ailerons I can't help but wonder, Why an

aluminum

and fabric combination instead of all aluminum? Just thinking

about it

from a maintenance standpoint, with all aluminum I never have to

worry

about a fabric replacement and painting.

Any one tried all aluminum ailerons or have any comments?

Terry

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
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Archives located at:
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*----------------------------------------------------*

*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
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Archives located at:
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*----------------------------------------------------*

________________________________________________________________
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Doug,

They are also both statically and aerodynamically(spades) balanced!

Blue skies,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Martin <greyghost@powernet.net>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2000 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: All metal ailerons - Rebel??

Check with MAM the Elite's are all metal?
Doug in Reno

At 11:23 PM 1/25/2000 -0500, you wrote:

The reason they're fabric covered is the same reason Mustangs,

Spitfires,

and DC-3s had fabric covered control surfaces - you avoid FLUTTER !!
Having your ailerons come off in flight is NO FUN !! ;-)

Seriously, you could cover them in metal, but you must add about 16

lb.

of mass balance forward, which can be ugly, add drag, and be a hazard to
your head on walkarounds ! It has been done - right Wayne ?? :-)

If you apply a good layer of silver dope, you will keep the sun off
the fabric, and it will last forever ....

As you so often see on this list "just build it by the book - you'll
just LOVE the finished Rebel !!"

.....bobp

------------------------------orig.---------------------------------------

--

At 08:17 PM 1/25/00 EST, you wrote:

As I start work on my ailerons I can't help but wonder, Why an aluminum
and fabric combination instead of all aluminum? Just thinking about it
from a maintenance standpoint, with all aluminum I never have to worry
about a fabric replacement and painting.

Any one tried all aluminum ailerons or have any comments?

Terry

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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*----------------------------------------------------*

*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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*----------------------------------------------------*

Doug Martin
greyghost@powernet.net
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Wayne's right !! The Elite ailerons & flaps are COMPLETELY different
animals - there are extra hinge supports, weights in the front, and
large aerodynamic balance horns at the outboard ends.

Again - they added a lot of weight, complexity for building, and
lost roll effectiveness. Why ?? Because a bunch of potential customers
thought aluminum would look more like a "real airplane" - the old
"Cessna did it, so it must be good" thing !!! ;-(
(same reason the Elite was originally a tricycle ...)

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 08:22 PM 1/26/00 -0500, you wrote:

Doug,

They are also both statically and aerodynamically(spades) balanced!

Blue skies,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Martin <greyghost@powernet.net>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2000 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: All metal ailerons - Rebel??

Check with MAM the Elite's are all metal?
Doug in Reno

At 11:23 PM 1/25/2000 -0500, you wrote:

The reason they're fabric covered is the same reason Mustangs,

Spitfires,

and DC-3s had fabric covered control surfaces - you avoid FLUTTER !!
Having your ailerons come off in flight is NO FUN !! ;-)

Seriously, you could cover them in metal, but you must add about 16

lb.

of mass balance forward, which can be ugly, add drag, and be a hazard to
your head on walkarounds ! It has been done - right Wayne ?? :-)

If you apply a good layer of silver dope, you will keep the sun off
the fabric, and it will last forever ....

As you so often see on this list "just build it by the book - you'll
just LOVE the finished Rebel !!"

.....bobp

------------------------------orig.---------------------------------------

--

At 08:17 PM 1/25/00 EST, you wrote: *----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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*----------------------------------------------------*

Doug Martin
greyghost@powernet.net
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Archives located at:
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That's mean that we should throw away the metal skins and couterweights then
install fabric on those elevators and flap. We will get best of both world?

Gaetan Tremblay
E660


-----Message d'origine-----
De : Bob Patterson [mailto:bob.patterson@canrem.com]
Envoy

I think the idea with the tail was that a little extra weight back
there was a 'Good Thing'(tm) :-)

Also, the balance weights and horns REALLY helped the control feel
and response on the rudder and elevator.

I know - the original Rebel had fabric covered rudder & elevators,
and NO balance horns, and I flew it like that !

.....bobp

--------------------------------orig.---------------------------------------
At 12:50 AM 1/28/00 -0500, you wrote:
[quote]That's mean that we should throw away the metal skins and couterweights then
install fabric on those elevators and flap. We will get best of both world?

Gaetan Tremblay
E660


-----Message d'origine-----
De : Bob Patterson [mailto:bob.patterson@canrem.com]
Envoy