The Murphy Builders Site

Mike Kimball wrote:

Forgive my ignorance but I'm still trying to understand this stuff. Many
have said that I should go with the female mold method so that I can build
more than one cowl if need be and also to get a better finish with gel coat.
I'm still trying to figure out how to do that. Unless I have it wrong it
seems like I must complete the project as I had originally planned by
sculpting the shape I want out of foam, using spackling to fill gaps and
finalize the shape, then covering with something like Ultralight (bondo) or
maybe just primer, then a release agent then fiberglass.

Mike I think you have to cover all of the foam with spackling or
something or any resin that touches the foam will dissolve the foam.
Even if paint will seal the foam, you can't really paint foam and get a
smooth finish as far as I know ??

Then if I want to
proceed to the female mold I must remove the cured fiberglass from the foam
structure and use it as the female mold which will require preparation of
the inside of the fiberglass part, adding gel coat, then lay a new layer of
fiberglass inside the original fiberglass part. The original fiberglass
part would need to be reinforced or supported to hold it's shape for this to
work.

Yes that's about right. I removed the sculpted foam and sat it on a
piece of plywood with a sheet of plastic between the plywood and the
foam. Now when you make the mold you just also make a 2 or 3 inch lip
flat against the plywood. That lip is all you need for reinforcing! You
will be able to literally jump up and down on the mold without hurting it.

And I would have to somehow account for the slightly smaller part
that would come out of the female mold so it will fit.

Not sure you grasp this. If you make a mold then the finished part will
be the same size as the sculpted foam. If you do not use a mold then the
finished part will be about 3/32" or 1/8" larger than the sculped foam
depending on the thickness of your mat and any bondo.

To be honest, it
sounds like a lot of extra work. I want this to be behind me as soon as
possible. It's already too hard to get motivated to even enter my shop
knowing that this kind of work awaits me. I have no interest in making more
than one of these dang things. Sure wish I could have found an
off-the-shelf nose cowl that could be adapted.

This is not that big a deal once you get into it. Do it either way you
like. I think the Bingelis books have a few sections that might make you
feel better about this. Make a little part first just to play with and
get an idea how to work with the stuff. If someone is there that has
worked with fibreglass they will bolster your confidence and skill very
quickly. Another option is that there are guys out there (probably local
to you) that will be delighted to make your part for a couple of hundred
$ if you give them your sculpted foam. One fellow offered to do mine. I
think he does a lot of work with boats. I'm the type that has to do
everything myself but it sure slows things down... Someone mentioned
that they like to use disposable brushes and stuff but I found that they
clean up easily with acetone and you will probably purchase 2 gallons of
resin to make sure you don't run short so you will have lots extra to
experiment with.
Ken

Mike

044SR





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Mike,
I wouldn't go to the trouble to make a female mold if I were you. I know
others will disagree, but I think it's a waste of time. To make a female
mold you have to make your foam plug perfectly smooth before you lay glass
on it for the female, and then you have to essentially make two fiberglass
cowls instead of just one (because you are making a female). It's true that
the part you get from the female might have a nice smooth finish on it, but
that's assuming you know what you're doing with gel coat. I personally hate
gel coat. It adds extra weight with no structural value. If you have to make
a repair or alteration to the part you have to sand off all the gel coat in
that area, and unless the gel coat is done right in the first place it can
end up being full of air and voids, and then you will have to sand it off
anyway.
On the other hand, if you just use your foam plug to make the final part you
don't have to spend weeks prepping it because it will create the inner
surface of your cowl which doesn't have to be perfect. You will spend time
on the outer surface of the cowl once all the glass is laid up,
sanding/filling/sanding/filling etc, to get it faired and smooth for paint,
then you're done. Also if you wax the male plug sufficiently there is no
reason you can't use it to make another cowl in the future. If you don't
ever make another cowl off it then there is only one big chunk of
time/material/effort to throw away, and not two like you would have if you
make a female mold. Another thing to consider is using epoxy resin instead
of polyester or vynalester. It is more expensive, but in my opinion it's
worth every penney. It won't toxify the air in your whole neighborhood for
one thing, in fact most epoxies have almost no odor because they don't use
volatile solvents so nothing evaporates. Epoxy is stronger than the other
resins, and it has less shrinkage. Epoxy can be mixed with a variety of
filling/fairing/ thickening compounds to do the finish filling/sanding work,
so you can use the same stuff for the whole project. I actually enjoy
working with the stuff. Ask any Long EZ builder, the whole plane is made
from epoxy, glass, and foam, and there are no female molds used!
Anyway, that's just me, but I wouldn't make two molds to get one part.
Jesse

From: Mike Kimball <mkimball@gci.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: Rebel Builder's List <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: [rebel-builders] Fiberglass cowl - revisited
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:29:23 -0900

Forgive my ignorance but I'm still trying to understand this stuff. Many
have said that I should go with the female mold method so that I can build
more than one cowl if need be and also to get a better finish with gel
coat.
I'm still trying to figure out how to do that. Unless I have it wrong it
seems like I must complete the project as I had originally planned by
sculpting the shape I want out of foam, using spackling to fill gaps and
finalize the shape, then covering with something like Ultralight (bondo) or
maybe just primer, then a release agent then fiberglass. Then if I want to
proceed to the female mold I must remove the cured fiberglass from the foam
structure and use it as the female mold which will require preparation of
the inside of the fiberglass part, adding gel coat, then lay a new layer of
fiberglass inside the original fiberglass part. The original fiberglass
part would need to be reinforced or supported to hold it's shape for this
to
work. And I would have to somehow account for the slightly smaller part
that would come out of the female mold so it will fit. To be honest, it
sounds like a lot of extra work. I want this to be behind me as soon as
possible. It's already too hard to get motivated to even enter my shop
knowing that this kind of work awaits me. I have no interest in making
more
than one of these dang things. Sure wish I could have found an
off-the-shelf nose cowl that could be adapted.



Mike

044SR





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Thanks Jesse. I was planning on using Safe-T-Poxy which I've used before
but it appears that Hexcel doesn't make that anymore. Besides, you need an
expensive pump to get the proper ratio. I will probably use the West System
Epoxy because of the inexpensive metering pumps you can get that makes it
easy to dispense the proper portions of resin and hardener. I plan to use
S-glass for the layup. I consider this to be the easy part. Getting the
foam plug completed is the hard part. I very much appreciate your thoughts
along with the comments from the female mold folks. I'm going with the male
mold. I wanna get this done and get the airplane to the airport for
assembly. Summer's comin' and it's short in Fairbanks!

Mike
044SR

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 2:47 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fiberglass cowl - revisited

Mike,
I wouldn't go to the trouble to make a female mold if I were you. I know
others will disagree, but I think it's a waste of time. To make a female
mold you have to make your foam plug perfectly smooth before you lay glass
on it for the female, and then you have to essentially make two fiberglass
cowls instead of just one (because you are making a female). It's true that
the part you get from the female might have a nice smooth finish on it, but
that's assuming you know what you're doing with gel coat. I personally hate
gel coat. It adds extra weight with no structural value. If you have to make

a repair or alteration to the part you have to sand off all the gel coat in
that area, and unless the gel coat is done right in the first place it can
end up being full of air and voids, and then you will have to sand it off
anyway.
On the other hand, if you just use your foam plug to make the final part you

don't have to spend weeks prepping it because it will create the inner
surface of your cowl which doesn't have to be perfect. You will spend time
on the outer surface of the cowl once all the glass is laid up,
sanding/filling/sanding/filling etc, to get it faired and smooth for paint,
then you're done. Also if you wax the male plug sufficiently there is no
reason you can't use it to make another cowl in the future. If you don't
ever make another cowl off it then there is only one big chunk of
time/material/effort to throw away, and not two like you would have if you
make a female mold. Another thing to consider is using epoxy resin instead
of polyester or vynalester. It is more expensive, but in my opinion it's
worth every penney. It won't toxify the air in your whole neighborhood for
one thing, in fact most epoxies have almost no odor because they don't use
volatile solvents so nothing evaporates. Epoxy is stronger than the other
resins, and it has less shrinkage. Epoxy can be mixed with a variety of
filling/fairing/ thickening compounds to do the finish filling/sanding work,

so you can use the same stuff for the whole project. I actually enjoy
working with the stuff. Ask any Long EZ builder, the whole plane is made
from epoxy, glass, and foam, and there are no female molds used!
Anyway, that's just me, but I wouldn't make two molds to get one part.
Jesse

From: Mike Kimball <mkimball@gci.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: Rebel Builder's List <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: [rebel-builders] Fiberglass cowl - revisited
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:29:23 -0900

Forgive my ignorance but I'm still trying to understand this stuff. Many
have said that I should go with the female mold method so that I can build
more than one cowl if need be and also to get a better finish with gel
coat.
I'm still trying to figure out how to do that. Unless I have it wrong it
seems like I must complete the project as I had originally planned by
sculpting the shape I want out of foam, using spackling to fill gaps and
finalize the shape, then covering with something like Ultralight (bondo) or
maybe just primer, then a release agent then fiberglass. Then if I want to
proceed to the female mold I must remove the cured fiberglass from the foam
structure and use it as the female mold which will require preparation of
the inside of the fiberglass part, adding gel coat, then lay a new layer of
fiberglass inside the original fiberglass part. The original fiberglass
part would need to be reinforced or supported to hold it's shape for this
to
work. And I would have to somehow account for the slightly smaller part
that would come out of the female mold so it will fit. To be honest, it
sounds like a lot of extra work. I want this to be behind me as soon as
possible. It's already too hard to get motivated to even enter my shop
knowing that this kind of work awaits me. I have no interest in making
more
than one of these dang things. Sure wish I could have found an
off-the-shelf nose cowl that could be adapted.



Mike

044SR





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Mike,
The West System is very nice to work with. It's available at marine stores,
and some hardware stores. They have a complete line of fillers as well,
which are great. For surface fairing I like to use a mixture of 406
colloidal silica (gives it a creamy spreadable quality) and 407 low density
fairing compound. Stir in with your already mixed epoxy until you get a
viscosity that is nice to work with.
As for your plug, like I said, if you are only using it as a male mold you
don't have to spend much time getting it perfect, just make sure it is the
shape you want and don't worry about surface imperfections. You could even
just cover the foam with duct tape and wax the hell out of it. When laying
up the glass a squeegee works great to get the epoxy spread out on the glass
quickly. Mix small batches at first until you get comfortable. Warming the
mold surface with a hair dryer or next to a heater BEFORE you start to lay
glass on it will greatly ease the process of wetting out the glass. Wet out
each layer of glass completely and remove all excess resin before you start
on the next layer. You want to get it spread out quickly because big globs
will start to harden first. The technique I prefer is using a small diameter
low nap foam roller. West sells these as well, they are yellow and come in
about 10" sections. I cut them into 2 or 3" pieces. I pour the mixed epoxy
onto a piece of wood or cardboard immediately to use as a roller pan, or it
will heat up in the cup and set up quickly. It can actually catch on fire.
What weight of glass and how many plies are you planning?
Jesse

From: Mike Kimball <mkimball@gci.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fiberglass cowl - revisited
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 12:53:58 -0900

Thanks Jesse. I was planning on using Safe-T-Poxy which I've used before
but it appears that Hexcel doesn't make that anymore. Besides, you need an
expensive pump to get the proper ratio. I will probably use the West
System
Epoxy because of the inexpensive metering pumps you can get that makes it
easy to dispense the proper portions of resin and hardener. I plan to use
S-glass for the layup. I consider this to be the easy part. Getting the
foam plug completed is the hard part. I very much appreciate your thoughts
along with the comments from the female mold folks. I'm going with the
male
mold. I wanna get this done and get the airplane to the airport for
assembly. Summer's comin' and it's short in Fairbanks!

Mike
044SR

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 2:47 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fiberglass cowl - revisited

Mike,
I wouldn't go to the trouble to make a female mold if I were you. I know
others will disagree, but I think it's a waste of time. To make a female
mold you have to make your foam plug perfectly smooth before you lay glass
on it for the female, and then you have to essentially make two fiberglass
cowls instead of just one (because you are making a female). It's true that
the part you get from the female might have a nice smooth finish on it, but
that's assuming you know what you're doing with gel coat. I personally hate
gel coat. It adds extra weight with no structural value. If you have to
make

a repair or alteration to the part you have to sand off all the gel coat in
that area, and unless the gel coat is done right in the first place it can
end up being full of air and voids, and then you will have to sand it off
anyway.
On the other hand, if you just use your foam plug to make the final part
you

don't have to spend weeks prepping it because it will create the inner
surface of your cowl which doesn't have to be perfect. You will spend time
on the outer surface of the cowl once all the glass is laid up,
sanding/filling/sanding/filling etc, to get it faired and smooth for paint,
then you're done. Also if you wax the male plug sufficiently there is no
reason you can't use it to make another cowl in the future. If you don't
ever make another cowl off it then there is only one big chunk of
time/material/effort to throw away, and not two like you would have if you
make a female mold. Another thing to consider is using epoxy resin instead
of polyester or vynalester. It is more expensive, but in my opinion it's
worth every penney. It won't toxify the air in your whole neighborhood for
one thing, in fact most epoxies have almost no odor because they don't use
volatile solvents so nothing evaporates. Epoxy is stronger than the other
resins, and it has less shrinkage. Epoxy can be mixed with a variety of
filling/fairing/ thickening compounds to do the finish filling/sanding
work,

so you can use the same stuff for the whole project. I actually enjoy
working with the stuff. Ask any Long EZ builder, the whole plane is made
from epoxy, glass, and foam, and there are no female molds used!
Anyway, that's just me, but I wouldn't make two molds to get one part.
Jesse

From: Mike Kimball <mkimball@gci.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: Rebel Builder's List <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: [rebel-builders] Fiberglass cowl - revisited
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:29:23 -0900

Forgive my ignorance but I'm still trying to understand this stuff. Many
have said that I should go with the female mold method so that I can

build

more than one cowl if need be and also to get a better finish with gel
coat.
I'm still trying to figure out how to do that. Unless I have it wrong it
seems like I must complete the project as I had originally planned by
sculpting the shape I want out of foam, using spackling to fill gaps and
finalize the shape, then covering with something like Ultralight (bondo)

or

maybe just primer, then a release agent then fiberglass. Then if I want

to

proceed to the female mold I must remove the cured fiberglass from the

foam

structure and use it as the female mold which will require preparation of
the inside of the fiberglass part, adding gel coat, then lay a new layer

of

fiberglass inside the original fiberglass part. The original fiberglass
part would need to be reinforced or supported to hold it's shape for this
to
work. And I would have to somehow account for the slightly smaller part
that would come out of the female mold so it will fit. To be honest, it
sounds like a lot of extra work. I want this to be behind me as soon as
possible. It's already too hard to get motivated to even enter my shop
knowing that this kind of work awaits me. I have no interest in making
more
than one of these dang things. Sure wish I could have found an
off-the-shelf nose cowl that could be adapted.



Mike

044SR





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From building wood kayaks... The west system is great. Others are available
online for a little less (MAS, etc.) If you use the slow hardener (206) or the
REAL slow hardener (West 207) you will have a lot of time to work with it,
and you won't experience the amine blush between coats.You will need a
warm shop though! The foam rollers and the foam brushes work great. Pour or
dab it on, roll it, then use the plastic blade to scrape it nearly dry. Anything
more than the cloth wet-out is wasted weight. Lots of latex gloves, lots of
mixing containers, lots of brushes, and lots of ruined clothes! AND lots of
excess epoxy on the floor!!
On 3/24/2006 1:42 PM, jessejenks@hotmail.com wrote to rebel-builders:

-> Mike,
-> The West System is very nice to work with. It's available at marine stores,
-> and some hardware stores. They have a complete line of fillers as well,
-> which are great. For surface fairing I like to use a mixture of 406
-> colloidal silica (gives it a creamy spreadable quality) and 407 low density
-> fairing compound. Stir in with your already mixed epoxy until you get a
-> viscosity that is nice to work with.
-> As for your plug, like I said, if you are only using it as a male mold you
-> don't have to spend much time getting it perfect, just make sure it is the
-> shape you want and don't worry about surface imperfections. You could
even
-> just cover the foam with duct tape and wax the hell out of it. When laying
-> up the glass a squeegee works great to get the epoxy spread out on the
glass
-> quickly. Mix small batches at first until you get comfortable. Warming the
-> mold surface with a hair dryer or next to a heater BEFORE you start to lay
-> glass on it will greatly ease the process of wetting out the glass. Wet out
-> each layer of glass completely and remove all excess resin before you
start
-> on the next layer. You want to get it spread out quickly because big globs
-> will start to harden first. The technique I prefer is using a small diameter
-> low nap foam roller. West sells these as well, they are yellow and come in
-> about 10" sections. I cut them into 2 or 3" pieces. I pour the mixed epoxy
-> onto a piece of wood or cardboard immediately to use as a roller pan, or it
-> will heat up in the cup and set up quickly. It can actually catch on fire.
-> What weight of glass and how many plies are you planning?
-> Jesse
->
-> >From: Mike Kimball <mkimball@gci.net>
-> >Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
-> >To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
-> >Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fiberglass cowl - revisited
-> >Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 12:53:58 -0900
-> >
-> >Thanks Jesse. I was planning on using Safe-T-Poxy which I've used
before
-> >but it appears that Hexcel doesn't make that anymore. Besides, you
need an
-> >expensive pump to get the proper ratio. I will probably use the West
-> >System
-> >Epoxy because of the inexpensive metering pumps you can get that
makes it
-> >easy to dispense the proper portions of resin and hardener. I plan to use
-> >S-glass for the layup. I consider this to be the easy part. Getting the
-> >foam plug completed is the hard part. I very much appreciate your
thoughts
-> >along with the comments from the female mold folks. I'm going with the
-> >male
-> >mold. I wanna get this done and get the airplane to the airport for
-> >assembly. Summer's comin' and it's short in Fairbanks!
-> >
-> >Mike
-> >044SR
-> >
-> >-----Original Message-----
-> >From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Jesse
-> >Jenks
-> >Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 2:47 PM
-> >To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
-> >Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fiberglass cowl - revisited
-> >
-> >Mike,
-> >I wouldn't go to the trouble to make a female mold if I were you. I know
-> >others will disagree, but I think it's a waste of time. To make a female
-> >mold you have to make your foam plug perfectly smooth before you lay
glass
-> >on it for the female, and then you have to essentially make two fiberglass
-> >cowls instead of just one (because you are making a female). It's true
that
-> >the part you get from the female might have a nice smooth finish on it,
but
-> >that's assuming you know what you're doing with gel coat. I personally
hate
-> >gel coat. It adds extra weight with no structural value. If you have to
-> >make
-> >
-> >a repair or alteration to the part you have to sand off all the gel coat in
-> >that area, and unless the gel coat is done right in the first place it can
-> >end up being full of air and voids, and then you will have to sand it off
-> >anyway.
-> >On the other hand, if you just use your foam plug to make the final part
-> >you
-> >
-> >don't have to spend weeks prepping it because it will create the inner
-> >surface of your cowl which doesn't have to be perfect. You will spend
time
-> >on the outer surface of the cowl once all the glass is laid up,
-> >sanding/filling/sanding/filling etc, to get it faired and smooth for paint,
-> >then you're done. Also if you wax the male plug sufficiently there is no
-> >reason you can't use it to make another cowl in the future. If you don't
-> >ever make another cowl off it then there is only one big chunk of
-> >time/material/effort to throw away, and not two like you would have if
you
-> >make a female mold. Another thing to consider is using epoxy resin
instead
-> >of polyester or vynalester. It is more expensive, but in my opinion it's
-> >worth every penney. It won't toxify the air in your whole neighborhood for
-> >one thing, in fact most epoxies have almost no odor because they don't
use
-> >volatile solvents so nothing evaporates. Epoxy is stronger than the other
-> >resins, and it has less shrinkage. Epoxy can be mixed with a variety of
-> >filling/fairing/ thickening compounds to do the finish filling/sanding
-> >work,
-> >
-> >so you can use the same stuff for the whole project. I actually enjoy
-> >working with the stuff. Ask any Long EZ builder, the whole plane is made
-> >from epoxy, glass, and foam, and there are no female molds used!
-> >Anyway, that's just me, but I wouldn't make two molds to get one part.
-> >Jesse
-> >
-> > >From: Mike Kimball <mkimball@gci.net>
-> > >Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
-> > >To: Rebel Builder's List <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
-> > >Subject: [rebel-builders] Fiberglass cowl - revisited
-> > >Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:29:23 -0900
-> > >
-> > >Forgive my ignorance but I'm still trying to understand this stuff. Many
-> > >have said that I should go with the female mold method so that I can
-> >build
-> > >more than one cowl if need be and also to get a better finish with gel
-> > >coat.
-> > >I'm still trying to figure out how to do that. Unless I have it wrong it
-> > >seems like I must complete the project as I had originally planned by
-> > >sculpting the shape I want out of foam, using spackling to fill gaps and
-> > >finalize the shape, then covering with something like Ultralight (bondo)
-> >or
-> > >maybe just primer, then a release agent then fiberglass. Then if I
want
-> >to
-> > >proceed to the female mold I must remove the cured fiberglass from
the
-> >foam
-> > >structure and use it as the female mold which will require preparation of
-> > >the inside of the fiberglass part, adding gel coat, then lay a new layer
-> >of
-> > >fiberglass inside the original fiberglass part. The original fiberglass
-> > >part would need to be reinforced or supported to hold it's shape for this
-> > >to
-> > >work. And I would have to somehow account for the slightly smaller
part
-> > >that would come out of the female mold so it will fit. To be honest, it
-> > >sounds like a lot of extra work. I want this to be behind me as soon as
-> > >possible. It's already too hard to get motivated to even enter my shop
-> > >knowing that this kind of work awaits me. I have no interest in making
-> > >more
-> > >than one of these dang things. Sure wish I could have found an
-> > >off-the-shelf nose cowl that could be adapted.
-> > >
-> > >
-> > >
-> > >Mike
-> > >
-> > >044SR
-> > >
-> > >
-> > >
-> > >
-> > >
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-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
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