Page 1 of 1

[rebel-builders] moose gear brackets and aileron hinges

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:34 am
by Drew Dalgleish
The original Rebels had AIL-26's made of plain steel. If not well greased,
they corroded, and could lock inside the brass bushing, possibly introducing
a turning moment on the bolt. So most of us used castle nuts.
Later kits have these made of stainless (use a magnet to check). So,
theoretically, if these are properly lubricated, the bolt, if tightly locked
down, will not move.
I now use nylocks on the ailerons and flaps, as the chances of three nylocks
unwinding completely and the flap or aileron falling off is pretty remote.
You MUST use castle nuts on the tail section.
Brian
I think if any one bolt fell out it would be a very bad day. It's only the
centre bolt that's hard to get in and with a little patience it can be done
fairly quickly as well. I'll be keeping the castle nuts on my ailerons.
Drew





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[rebel-builders] moose gear brackets and aileron hinges

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:34 am
by eric.r
Or, you could do as the last certified mechanic did on my certified airplane,
just strip the nut on and bottom it out against the shoulder by not inserting
washers ... Had to drill it out!! I decided to do the obligatory 100 hr aileron
inspection on my Tiger ( with supervision of course), and found eye opening
reasons why not to let anyone work on your aircraft without checking behind
them!
On 3/21/2006 8:00 PM, drewjan@cabletv.on.ca wrote to rebel-builders:

->
-> >The original Rebels had AIL-26's made of plain steel. If not well greased,
-> >they corroded, and could lock inside the brass bushing, possibly
introducing
-> >a turning moment on the bolt. So most of us used castle nuts.
-> >Later kits have these made of stainless (use a magnet to check). So,
-> >theoretically, if these are properly lubricated, the bolt, if tightly locked
-> >down, will not move.
-> >I now use nylocks on the ailerons and flaps, as the chances of three
nylocks
-> >unwinding completely and the flap or aileron falling off is pretty remote.
-> >You MUST use castle nuts on the tail section.
->
-> >Brian
-> >
->
-> I think if any one bolt fell out it would be a very bad day. It's only the
-> centre bolt that's hard to get in and with a little patience it can be done
-> fairly quickly as well. I'll be keeping the castle nuts on my ailerons.
-> Drew
->
->





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[rebel-builders] moose gear brackets and aileron hinges

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:35 am
by rickhm
Brian,
I have the original SR2500 legs and presumable the 309. Any reason I need to enlarge bolt sizes, holes, etc.

Rick Muller
SR70

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Brian Godden" <brian_godden@hotmail.com>

[quote]OK, you guys are scaring me now.
There are basically three generations of Super Rebel/Moose gear brackets.
The original 309 had a groove 1/8" machined in it and took the "c" shaped
310. This was used on the 2500.
The Moose has a gear leg 1/8" thicker, so the 309 was machened out another
1/8" (ie to 1/4") to accomodate it, and I believe given a 700 series number.
It still took the original 310.
After a number of gear failures, and while Doug was building the Bombardier
Moose, he came up with the idea of machining the groove/slot out to the full
7/8" to take the entire gear leg, and capture it with a simple flat bar
stock. The 309 had to be redesigned to keep the rake angles the same, and
was given a "B" designation (bloody confusing!).
You cannot mix and match them!!!
The new set up does indeed require a lot of filing and gnashing of teeth to
make it fit, and even then there is a gap between the flat bar stock (310B)
and the 309B. You take this up with 3/8" washers so no preload is on the bar
stock.

The original Rebels had AIL-26's made of plain steel. If not well greased,
they corroded, and could lock inside the brass bushing, possibly introducing
a turning moment on the bolt. So most of us used castle nuts.
Later kits have these made of stainless (use a magnet to check). So,
theoretically, if these are properly lubricated, the bolt, if tightly locked
down, will not move.
I now use nylocks on the ailerons and flaps, as the chances of three nylocks
unwinding completely and the flap or aileron falling off is pretty remote.
You MUST use castle nuts on the tail section.

If anyone plans to do a runaway trim flight test on a Moose in the nose down
mode, take Bob's advice....don't yard that stick too much......or maybe just
take our word for it.
Brian

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[rebel-builders] moose gear brackets and aileron hinges

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:35 am
by Ted Waltman
Guess I'm in the same boat--original gear, brackets and bolts. I have
about 225 hours on the plane now, with maybe 70 landings during that
time that were at gross weight.

I assme there's no real way to inspect the gear, brackets and bolts to
see if a problem is developing. I assume that you don't know you have a
problem until it--catastrophically--occurs. That being said, I don't
want to start down a path where one over-engineers everything or I'll
have a tank that won't get off the ground.

Al (Pahxia), I know you had a gear collapse. I read the after-accident
engineering report. As I recall, weren't the bolts themselves from a
suspect source?

Is there another plane out there that hand a gear incident? I don't
know of one.

My questions for Brian would be whether it is absolutely imperative to
retro fit the new 309B and 310B brackets.

Ted Waltman
Moose 142SR
www.i1ci.com/flying

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
rickhm@comcast.net
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 9:50 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] moose gear brackets and aileron hinges


Brian,
I have the original SR2500 legs and presumable the 309. Any reason I
need to enlarge bolt sizes, holes, etc.

Rick Muller
SR70

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Brian Godden" <brian_godden@hotmail.com>
OK, you guys are scaring me now.
There are basically three generations of Super Rebel/Moose gear
brackets.
The original 309 had a groove 1/8" machined in it and took the "c"
shaped
310. This was used on the 2500.
The Moose has a gear leg 1/8" thicker, so the 309 was machened out
another
1/8" (ie to 1/4") to accomodate it, and I believe given a 700 series
number.
It still took the original 310.
After a number of gear failures, and while Doug was building the
Bombardier
Moose, he came up with the idea of machining the groove/slot out to
the full
7/8" to take the entire gear leg, and capture it with a simple flat
bar
stock. The 309 had to be redesigned to keep the rake angles the same,
and
was given a "B" designation (bloody confusing!).
You cannot mix and match them!!!
The new set up does indeed require a lot of filing and gnashing of
teeth to
make it fit, and even then there is a gap between the flat bar stock
(310B)
and the 309B. You take this up with 3/8" washers so no preload is on
the bar
stock.

The original Rebels had AIL-26's made of plain steel. If not well
greased,
they corroded, and could lock inside the brass bushing, possibly
introducing
a turning moment on the bolt. So most of us used castle nuts.
Later kits have these made of stainless (use a magnet to check). So,
theoretically, if these are properly lubricated, the bolt, if tightly
locked
down, will not move.
I now use nylocks on the ailerons and flaps, as the chances of three
nylocks
unwinding completely and the flap or aileron falling off is pretty
remote.
You MUST use castle nuts on the tail section.

If anyone plans to do a runaway trim flight test on a Moose in the
nose down
mode, take Bob's advice....don't yard that stick too much......or
maybe just
take our word for it.
Brian

_________________________________________________________________
Scan and help eliminate destructive viruses from your inbound and
outbound
e-mail and attachments.
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[rebel-builders] moose gear brackets and aileron hinges

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:35 am
by Warren & Marg Montgomery
With the same question, as I have only so far upgraded one side from the
2500 standard to Moose standard,
should I stay with Mark II or further upgrade to Mark III?
Warren

Ted Waltman wrote:
Guess I'm in the same boat--original gear, brackets and bolts. I have
about 225 hours on the plane now, with maybe 70 landings during that
time that were at gross weight.

I assme there's no real way to inspect the gear, brackets and bolts to
see if a problem is developing. I assume that you don't know you have a
problem until it--catastrophically--occurs. That being said, I don't
want to start down a path where one over-engineers everything or I'll
have a tank that won't get off the ground.

Al (Pahxia), I know you had a gear collapse. I read the after-accident
engineering report. As I recall, weren't the bolts themselves from a
suspect source?

Is there another plane out there that hand a gear incident? I don't
know of one.

My questions for Brian would be whether it is absolutely imperative to
retro fit the new 309B and 310B brackets.

Ted Waltman
Moose 142SR
www.i1ci.com/flying

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
rickhm@comcast.net
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 9:50 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] moose gear brackets and aileron hinges


Brian,
I have the original SR2500 legs and presumable the 309. Any reason I
need to enlarge bolt sizes, holes, etc.

Rick Muller
SR70

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Brian Godden" <brian_godden@hotmail.com>


OK, you guys are scaring me now.
There are basically three generations of Super Rebel/Moose gear

brackets.

The original 309 had a groove 1/8" machined in it and took the "c"

shaped

310. This was used on the 2500.
The Moose has a gear leg 1/8" thicker, so the 309 was machened out

another

1/8" (ie to 1/4") to accomodate it, and I believe given a 700 series

number.

It still took the original 310.
After a number of gear failures, and while Doug was building the

Bombardier

Moose, he came up with the idea of machining the groove/slot out to

the full

7/8" to take the entire gear leg, and capture it with a simple flat

bar

stock. The 309 had to be redesigned to keep the rake angles the same,

and

was given a "B" designation (bloody confusing!).
You cannot mix and match them!!!
The new set up does indeed require a lot of filing and gnashing of

teeth to

make it fit, and even then there is a gap between the flat bar stock

(310B)

and the 309B. You take this up with 3/8" washers so no preload is on

the bar

stock.

The original Rebels had AIL-26's made of plain steel. If not well
greased,
they corroded, and could lock inside the brass bushing, possibly

introducing

a turning moment on the bolt. So most of us used castle nuts.
Later kits have these made of stainless (use a magnet to check). So,
theoretically, if these are properly lubricated, the bolt, if tightly

locked

down, will not move.
I now use nylocks on the ailerons and flaps, as the chances of three

nylocks

unwinding completely and the flap or aileron falling off is pretty

remote.

You MUST use castle nuts on the tail section.

If anyone plans to do a runaway trim flight test on a Moose in the
nose down
mode, take Bob's advice....don't yard that stick too much......or

maybe just

take our word for it.
Brian

_________________________________________________________________
Scan and help eliminate destructive viruses from your inbound and

outbound

e-mail and attachments.


http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&pag ... DI=1034&SU
=http://

hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
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[rebel-builders] moose gear brackets and aileron hinges

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:35 am
by Wayne G. O'Shea
Have you done the left side or the right side Warren !? Maybe between the
two of us we're done! LOL

----- Original Message -----
From: "Warren & Marg Montgomery" <monty@emirates.net.ae>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] moose gear brackets and aileron hinges

With the same question, as I have only so far upgraded one side from the
2500 standard to Moose standard,
should I stay with Mark II or further upgrade to Mark III?
Warren

Ted Waltman wrote:
Guess I'm in the same boat--original gear, brackets and bolts. I have
about 225 hours on the plane now, with maybe 70 landings during that
time that were at gross weight.

I assme there's no real way to inspect the gear, brackets and bolts to
see if a problem is developing. I assume that you don't know you have a
problem until it--catastrophically--occurs. That being said, I don't
want to start down a path where one over-engineers everything or I'll
have a tank that won't get off the ground.

Al (Pahxia), I know you had a gear collapse. I read the after-accident
engineering report. As I recall, weren't the bolts themselves from a
suspect source?

Is there another plane out there that hand a gear incident? I don't
know of one.

My questions for Brian would be whether it is absolutely imperative to
retro fit the new 309B and 310B brackets.

Ted Waltman
Moose 142SR
www.i1ci.com/flying

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
rickhm@comcast.net
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 9:50 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] moose gear brackets and aileron hinges


Brian,
I have the original SR2500 legs and presumable the 309. Any reason I
need to enlarge bolt sizes, holes, etc.

Rick Muller
SR70

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Brian Godden" <brian_godden@hotmail.com>


OK, you guys are scaring me now.
There are basically three generations of Super Rebel/Moose gear

brackets.

The original 309 had a groove 1/8" machined in it and took the "c"

shaped

310. This was used on the 2500.
The Moose has a gear leg 1/8" thicker, so the 309 was machened out

another

1/8" (ie to 1/4") to accomodate it, and I believe given a 700 series

number.

It still took the original 310.
After a number of gear failures, and while Doug was building the

Bombardier

Moose, he came up with the idea of machining the groove/slot out to

the full

7/8" to take the entire gear leg, and capture it with a simple flat

bar

stock. The 309 had to be redesigned to keep the rake angles the same,

and

was given a "B" designation (bloody confusing!).
You cannot mix and match them!!!
The new set up does indeed require a lot of filing and gnashing of

teeth to

make it fit, and even then there is a gap between the flat bar stock

(310B)

and the 309B. You take this up with 3/8" washers so no preload is on

the bar

stock.

The original Rebels had AIL-26's made of plain steel. If not well
greased,
they corroded, and could lock inside the brass bushing, possibly

introducing

a turning moment on the bolt. So most of us used castle nuts.
Later kits have these made of stainless (use a magnet to check). So,
theoretically, if these are properly lubricated, the bolt, if tightly

locked

down, will not move.
I now use nylocks on the ailerons and flaps, as the chances of three

nylocks

unwinding completely and the flap or aileron falling off is pretty

remote.

You MUST use castle nuts on the tail section.

If anyone plans to do a runaway trim flight test on a Moose in the
nose down
mode, take Bob's advice....don't yard that stick too much......or

maybe just

take our word for it.
Brian

_________________________________________________________________
Scan and help eliminate destructive viruses from your inbound and

outbound

e-mail and attachments.


http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&pag ... DI=1034&SU
=http://

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[rebel-builders] moose gear brackets and aileron hinges

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:35 am
by Mike Kimball
You are not in exactly the same boat as Rick, Ted. Rick says he has the
original SR2500 gear legs. Your plane is a Moose, not an SR2500. The gear
legs are completely different. I'm pretty sure they are the same where they
attach though. What I don't know is if the Moose upgrade includes enlarging
the 5/16 bolts to 3/8. As for the question about whether the 5/16 bolts
need to be enlarged to 3/8, I sent an email to MAM yesterday asking that
very question. I suspect they do not need to be enlarged for a Super Rebel
but I'll let everyone know their response when I get it.

Mike
044SR

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ted
Waltman
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 8:00 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] moose gear brackets and aileron hinges

Guess I'm in the same boat--original gear, brackets and bolts. I have
about 225 hours on the plane now, with maybe 70 landings during that
time that were at gross weight.

I assme there's no real way to inspect the gear, brackets and bolts to
see if a problem is developing. I assume that you don't know you have a
problem until it--catastrophically--occurs. That being said, I don't
want to start down a path where one over-engineers everything or I'll
have a tank that won't get off the ground.

Al (Pahxia), I know you had a gear collapse. I read the after-accident
engineering report. As I recall, weren't the bolts themselves from a
suspect source?

Is there another plane out there that hand a gear incident? I don't
know of one.

My questions for Brian would be whether it is absolutely imperative to
retro fit the new 309B and 310B brackets.

Ted Waltman
Moose 142SR
www.i1ci.com/flying

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
rickhm@comcast.net
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 9:50 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] moose gear brackets and aileron hinges


Brian,
I have the original SR2500 legs and presumable the 309. Any reason I
need to enlarge bolt sizes, holes, etc.

Rick Muller
SR70

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Brian Godden" <brian_godden@hotmail.com>
OK, you guys are scaring me now.
There are basically three generations of Super Rebel/Moose gear
brackets.
The original 309 had a groove 1/8" machined in it and took the "c"
shaped
310. This was used on the 2500.
The Moose has a gear leg 1/8" thicker, so the 309 was machened out
another
1/8" (ie to 1/4") to accomodate it, and I believe given a 700 series
number.
It still took the original 310.
After a number of gear failures, and while Doug was building the
Bombardier
Moose, he came up with the idea of machining the groove/slot out to
the full
7/8" to take the entire gear leg, and capture it with a simple flat
bar
stock. The 309 had to be redesigned to keep the rake angles the same,
and
was given a "B" designation (bloody confusing!).
You cannot mix and match them!!!
The new set up does indeed require a lot of filing and gnashing of
teeth to
make it fit, and even then there is a gap between the flat bar stock
(310B)
and the 309B. You take this up with 3/8" washers so no preload is on
the bar
stock.

The original Rebels had AIL-26's made of plain steel. If not well
greased,
they corroded, and could lock inside the brass bushing, possibly
introducing
a turning moment on the bolt. So most of us used castle nuts.
Later kits have these made of stainless (use a magnet to check). So,
theoretically, if these are properly lubricated, the bolt, if tightly
locked
down, will not move.
I now use nylocks on the ailerons and flaps, as the chances of three
nylocks
unwinding completely and the flap or aileron falling off is pretty
remote.
You MUST use castle nuts on the tail section.

If anyone plans to do a runaway trim flight test on a Moose in the
nose down
mode, take Bob's advice....don't yard that stick too much......or
maybe just
take our word for it.
Brian

_________________________________________________________________
Scan and help eliminate destructive viruses from your inbound and
outbound
e-mail and attachments.
http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&pag ... DI=1034&SU
=http://
hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
Start enjoying all the benefits of MSNR Premium right now and get the
first two months FREE*.




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[rebel-builders] moose gear brackets and aileron hinges

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:35 am
by Warren & Marg Montgomery
Right side is right, Left side was left.........

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:
Have you done the left side or the right side Warren !? Maybe between the
two of us we're done! LOL

----- Original Message -----
From: "Warren & Marg Montgomery" <monty@emirates.net.ae>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] moose gear brackets and aileron hinges



With the same question, as I have only so far upgraded one side from the
2500 standard to Moose standard,
should I stay with Mark II or further upgrade to Mark III?
Warren

Ted Waltman wrote:


Guess I'm in the same boat--original gear, brackets and bolts. I have
about 225 hours on the plane now, with maybe 70 landings during that
time that were at gross weight.

I assme there's no real way to inspect the gear, brackets and bolts to
see if a problem is developing. I assume that you don't know you have a
problem until it--catastrophically--occurs. That being said, I don't
want to start down a path where one over-engineers everything or I'll
have a tank that won't get off the ground.

Al (Pahxia), I know you had a gear collapse. I read the after-accident
engineering report. As I recall, weren't the bolts themselves from a
suspect source?

Is there another plane out there that hand a gear incident? I don't
know of one.

My questions for Brian would be whether it is absolutely imperative to
retro fit the new 309B and 310B brackets.

Ted Waltman
Moose 142SR
www.i1ci.com/flying

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
rickhm@comcast.net
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 9:50 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] moose gear brackets and aileron hinges


Brian,
I have the original SR2500 legs and presumable the 309. Any reason I
need to enlarge bolt sizes, holes, etc.

Rick Muller
SR70

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Brian Godden" <brian_godden@hotmail.com>




brackets.



shaped



another



number.



Bombardier



the full



bar



and



teeth to



(310B)



the bar



introducing



locked



nylocks



remote.



maybe just



outbound



http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&pag ... DI=1034&SU
=http://



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[rebel-builders] moose gear brackets and aileron hinges

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:35 am
by Wayne G. O'Shea
Guess we both have to finish what we started then as I've converted the
right side already as well ! LOL

----- Original Message -----
From: "Warren & Marg Montgomery" <monty@emirates.net.ae>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] moose gear brackets and aileron hinges

Right side is right, Left side was left.........

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:
Have you done the left side or the right side Warren !? Maybe between the
two of us we're done! LOL

----- Original Message -----
From: "Warren & Marg Montgomery" <monty@emirates.net.ae>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] moose gear brackets and aileron hinges



With the same question, as I have only so far upgraded one side from the
2500 standard to Moose standard,
should I stay with Mark II or further upgrade to Mark III?
Warren

Ted Waltman wrote:


a
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[rebel-builders] moose gear brackets and aileron hinges

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:35 am
by Warren & Marg Montgomery
Woke up at 03:40 having spent a week in Seattle so while we're wasting
bandwith... a human factors study found that 80% of the people go to the
right when faced with an equal choice of a left or right turn. If you're
a grocer it applies to how the store is laid out or more usefully, if
you want to avoid crowds at theme parks etc. go left...
I would therefore assume an equal number of right side components were
built first. if not instructed otherwise.
Not sure if this factored right hand drivers or correollis effect down
unda. Actually it 'leaned' toward the higher beta activity.
Gotta find something productive to do now.
Warren



Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:
Guess we both have to finish what we started then as I've converted the
right side already as well ! LOL

----- Original Message -----
From: "Warren & Marg Montgomery" <monty@emirates.net.ae>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] moose gear brackets and aileron hinges



Right side is right, Left side was left.........

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:


Have you done the left side or the right side Warren !? Maybe between the
two of us we're done! LOL

----- Original Message -----
From: "Warren & Marg Montgomery" <monty@emirates.net.ae>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] moose gear brackets and aileron hinges





a



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