The Murphy Builders Site

Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:31 am**

Hi Mike

Remember I'm sure no expert but:
Are you now going to make a female mold or are you making a one shot
final piece. If going for the final piece it only matters that you seal
the foam so that the gel coat and resin doesn't dissolve it as you will
chip it/sand it out later. Use car wax or whatever.

I made a female mold and then the final piece from that. Spackling
compound worked fine for me and then numerous layers of the mold release
wax that seemed identical to paste car wax to me. I wondered about the
numerous layers as my understanding is that one can not build thicker
layers of wax on wax but -hey even I follow directions occasionally. No
biggy as again you are going to again destroy the foam to separate it.

If you are making a female fibreglass mold, the fun part is that you are
right and it was not easy to separate the final piece from that. I used
the mold release wax again. Some sources also recommend spraying PVA on
the mold but I did not as several sources said it was a waste of time.
I'd probably try it anyway if the part is deep. I had to hammer cedar
wedges in to get the two parts to separate. I think it really depend on
how deep the nose bowl is as to how difficult this will be. Oh and I
used some coloring in the gel coat of the final piece to make an obvious
distinction between mold material and final part material.

I was actually pleased to get over some of my trepidation with
fibreglass as I had a few parts that almost had to be made with the
stuff such as an intake duct for engine air. I still avoid it if I can
though ;)

Ken

Mike Kimball wrote:

I'm getting close to being ready to lay fiberglass over my "mold" built in
place for the nose cowl on my Super Rebel. The mold is currently sculpted
foam. I was planning on covering the foam with either wall spackling or
bondo. Then I would sand the mold smooth and cover it with a mold release
agent. Then the glass would be laid up on the mold and hopefully will
release from the mold after curing. I have experimented with wall spackling
because it cures fast and is easy to sand. I have used it to fill gouges
and other mistakes and then I can sand the foam/spackling area nice and
smooth. I don't know if the spackling would be suitable for the final
surface to apply the mold release to. Anybody know? I know bondo works but
it's harder to sand. The other question I have is about the agent.
Aircraft Spruce lists a product called Plastiease 512B which is to be
brushed or sprayed on and also a product simply called mold release wax
which comes in a can that looks like a car wax can. That makes me think
that it is thicker and would be applied like car wax. The Plastiease sounds
easier. Any opinions on the Plastiease versus the wax?

Sure doesn't seem right for this to be a topic on a list for builders of all
metal airplanes but I'll gratefully accept any thoughts.

Mike

044SR

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:31 am**

Mike,

The best 'mold release agent' that I've used is Johnson's Paste Wax.
Every big grocery store has it. I understand that if you use the wrong wax
(silicone bearing) it'll lead to bunches of other problems later on. Again,
my best result was to make the mold from fiberglass, filling with bondo or
microbaloons, then waxing the heck out of it. If you do such and then
encounter difficulty with the separation, inject compressed air between the
mold / part. This does a great job to split em apart and not damage your
part.
Latex gloves, respirator and never even think about cleaning your
brushes or tools. Just use disposable things when working with resin. It
is actually possible to 'make friends' with this stuff, as opposed to
proseal, which is absolutely nasty.

Bill

On 3/16/06, Mike Kimball <mkimball@gci.net> wrote:

I'm getting close to being ready to lay fiberglass over my "mold" built in
place for the nose cowl on my Super Rebel. The mold is currently sculpted
foam. I was planning on covering the foam with either wall spackling or
bondo. Then I would sand the mold smooth and cover it with a mold release
agent. Then the glass would be laid up on the mold and hopefully will
release from the mold after curing. I have experimented with wall
spackling
because it cures fast and is easy to sand. I have used it to fill gouges
and other mistakes and then I can sand the foam/spackling area nice and
smooth. I don't know if the spackling would be suitable for the final
surface to apply the mold release to. Anybody know? I know bondo works
but
it's harder to sand. The other question I have is about the agent.
Aircraft Spruce lists a product called Plastiease 512B which is to be
brushed or sprayed on and also a product simply called mold release wax
which comes in a can that looks like a car wax can. That makes me think
that it is thicker and would be applied like car wax. The Plastiease
sounds
easier. Any opinions on the Plastiease versus the wax?

Sure doesn't seem right for this to be a topic on a list for builders of
all
metal airplanes but I'll gratefully accept any thoughts.

Mike

044SR

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:31 am**

Mike,

This is a topic I can relate to.

Spackling is good, but, it takes a lot of mold-release to get the mold off of it. The reason is the spackling absorbs the mold release and thus you have a bonding problem. The way I do it is to sand the spackling smooth with 320 grit, then spray a primer on it, automotive type, lacquer base if you can find it. Once dry, sand with 400 grit to a smooth finish. Now, spray about 5 coats of PVA mold release. I also use a PVA past wax first but it you do not have the wax it should be OK.
The reason this works is that primer is not water based and does not absorb the mold release. BTW, PVA is water based and if the part sticks, you can use air to blow the mold off of the part , or use warm water, it washes the PVA away.

Let me know how it works.

Mike Kimball <mkimball@gci.net> wrote:
I'm getting close to being ready to lay fiberglass over my "mold" built in
place for the nose cowl on my Super Rebel. The mold is currently sculpted
foam. I was planning on covering the foam with either wall spackling or
bondo. Then I would sand the mold smooth and cover it with a mold release
agent. Then the glass would be laid up on the mold and hopefully will
release from the mold after curing. I have experimented with wall spackling
because it cures fast and is easy to sand. I have used it to fill gouges
and other mistakes and then I can sand the foam/spackling area nice and
smooth. I don't know if the spackling would be suitable for the final
surface to apply the mold release to. Anybody know? I know bondo works but
it's harder to sand. The other question I have is about the agent.
Aircraft Spruce lists a product called Plastiease 512B which is to be
brushed or sprayed on and also a product simply called mold release wax
which comes in a can that looks like a car wax can. That makes me think
that it is thicker and would be applied like car wax. The Plastiease sounds
easier. Any opinions on the Plastiease versus the wax?

Sure doesn't seem right for this to be a topic on a list for builders of all
metal airplanes but I'll gratefully accept any thoughts.

Mike

044SR

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David K. Fife
3D Composite Aircraft Parts Inc.
428 N. Linwood Beach Rd
Linwood, MI. 48634
989-697-3277
Long EZ in progress.

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:31 am**

I recently read an article on this where spackling was used, but then also
fiberglassed. (This was in making a male plug.) It's good to hear that a
primer coat would work too. Much simpler. One of the other things to look
for is that the different materials are similar hardness. I know that even if
molds are made from different blocks of foam glued together, it is impossible
to avoid the glue lines sticking up in the final mold, and then it's even more
difficult if there are some areas foam and some spackling or bondo.
-Ben

Mike,

This is a topic I can relate to.

Spackling is good, but, it takes a lot of mold-release to get the mold off

of it. The reason is the spackling absorbs the mold release and thus you
have a bonding problem. The way I do it is to sand the spackling smooth
with 320 grit, then spray a primer on it, automotive type, lacquer base if
you can find it. Once dry, sand with 400 grit to a smooth finish. Now, spray
about 5 coats of PVA mold release. I also use a PVA past wax first but it you
do not have the wax it should be OK.

The reason this works is that primer is not water based and does not

absorb the mold release. BTW, PVA is water based and if the part sticks,
you can use air to blow the mold off of the part , or use warm water, it
washes the PVA away.

Let me know how it works.

Mike Kimball <mkimball@gci.net> wrote:
I'm getting close to being ready to lay fiberglass over my "mold" built in
place for the nose cowl on my Super Rebel. The mold is currently sculpted
foam. I was planning on covering the foam with either wall spackling or
bondo. Then I would sand the mold smooth and cover it with a mold release
agent. Then the glass would be laid up on the mold and hopefully will
release from the mold after curing. I have experimented with wall spackling
because it cures fast and is easy to sand. I have used it to fill gouges
and other mistakes and then I can sand the foam/spackling area nice and
smooth. I don't know if the spackling would be suitable for the final
surface to apply the mold release to. Anybody know? I know bondo works

but

it's harder to sand. The other question I have is about the agent.
Aircraft Spruce lists a product called Plastiease 512B which is to be
brushed or sprayed on and also a product simply called mold release wax
which comes in a can that looks like a car wax can. That makes me think
that it is thicker and would be applied like car wax. The Plastiease sounds
easier. Any opinions on the Plastiease versus the wax?

Sure doesn't seem right for this to be a topic on a list for builders of all
metal airplanes but I'll gratefully accept any thoughts.

Mike

044SR

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David K. Fife
3D Composite Aircraft Parts Inc.
428 N. Linwood Beach Rd
Linwood, MI. 48634
989-697-3277
Long EZ in progress.

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:31 am**

Hi Dave
Nice to hear from you. How's it going?
I forgot to mention the paint but I did warn that I was not the expert!
And I do now recall that latex was not a good choice ;(
Ken

Dave Fife wrote:

Mike,

This is a topic I can relate to.

Spackling is good, but, it takes a lot of mold-release to get the mold off of it. The reason is the spackling absorbs the mold release and thus you have a bonding problem. The way I do it is to sand the spackling smooth with 320 grit, then spray a primer on it, automotive type, lacquer base if you can find it. Once dry, sand with 400 grit to a smooth finish. Now, spray about 5 coats of PVA mold release. I also use a PVA past wax first but it you do not have the wax it should be OK.
The reason this works is that primer is not water based and does not absorb the mold release. BTW, PVA is water based and if the part sticks, you can use air to blow the mold off of the part , or use warm water, it washes the PVA away.

Let me know how it works.

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:31 am**

Wow, far more great responses than I hoped for! Thanks guys! To clarify, I
am not trying to create a female mold. I plan to prepare the sculpted cowl
in place on the airplane and then fiberglass in place. I'm nearly finished
with the sculpting. I have done it completely using the eyeball method.
When it looks good to my eyeballs, I'm going to seal the foam with spackling
and then paint it as suggested. Enamel paint OK? That's easy to get in
spray cans. Then I'll cover that with the mold release. I'm glad to hear
that one can just use readily available Johnson's wax so that I don't have
to wait for something to come in the mail. Then, if I understand it
correctly, I just lay the fiberglass on top of the waxed mold and squeegee
the resin in. I'm assuming that the dried wax won't interfere with the
resin during the cure. I don't know anything about gel coat. I'm going to
Google gel coat to try and learn about it. Any tips or info about gel coat
would certainly be appreciated. Otherwise, I was just planning on smoothing
the cured fiberglass cowl with microballoons and resin, or bondo. Once that
is done I was planning on cutting the cowl in half with my Dremel. I'm
thinking this will make removal from the mold easier and I want it to be
split anyway for maintenance access without removing the prop. Once the
cowl is on the workbench I can put the finishing touches on it and then
paint it. Thanks again guys.

Mike
044SR

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Kimball
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 8:11 PM
To: Rebel Builder's List
Subject: [rebel-builders] Mold release opinions?

I'm getting close to being ready to lay fiberglass over my "mold" built in
place for the nose cowl on my Super Rebel. The mold is currently sculpted
foam. I was planning on covering the foam with either wall spackling or
bondo. Then I would sand the mold smooth and cover it with a mold release
agent. Then the glass would be laid up on the mold and hopefully will
release from the mold after curing. I have experimented with wall spackling
because it cures fast and is easy to sand. I have used it to fill gouges
and other mistakes and then I can sand the foam/spackling area nice and
smooth. I don't know if the spackling would be suitable for the final
surface to apply the mold release to. Anybody know? I know bondo works but
it's harder to sand. The other question I have is about the agent.
Aircraft Spruce lists a product called Plastiease 512B which is to be
brushed or sprayed on and also a product simply called mold release wax
which comes in a can that looks like a car wax can. That makes me think
that it is thicker and would be applied like car wax. The Plastiease sounds
easier. Any opinions on the Plastiease versus the wax?

Sure doesn't seem right for this to be a topic on a list for builders of all
metal airplanes but I'll gratefully accept any thoughts.

Mike

044SR

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:31 am**

couple more amateur thoughts then FWIW Mike...

With a female mold the finished nose bowl will have the same exterior
dimensions as your foam sculpture. You would paint a layer of gel coat
in the female mold then immediately apply your resin and mat for a
smooth essentially finished nose bowl. You won't see any matting as it
will be under the gel coat. The thing is that if you have a nice smooth
foam sculpture it is easy to make a nice smooth mold and then easy to
get a nice finish on the exterior of the nose bowl. And that nice finish
will be the gel coat. I think some folks can get a lighter part using
this method?? I also liked that I could get a second chance to make the
final piece if I messed up the first one too badly.

The way you are planning it, don't forget to allow for the nose bowl
ending up a bit larger than your foam sculpture. I don't believe there
is any call for gel coat with that method but I have not tried it. It
won't matter though if your foam sculpture is less than perfect as you
will have to fill and sand the exterior to final smoothness anyway.
Bingelis seemed to think that it was about the same amount of work with
either method.

Ken

Mike Kimball wrote:

Wow, far more great responses than I hoped for! Thanks guys! To clarify, I
am not trying to create a female mold. I plan to prepare the sculpted cowl
in place on the airplane and then fiberglass in place. I'm nearly finished
with the sculpting. I have done it completely using the eyeball method.
When it looks good to my eyeballs, I'm going to seal the foam with spackling
and then paint it as suggested. Enamel paint OK? That's easy to get in
spray cans. Then I'll cover that with the mold release. I'm glad to hear
that one can just use readily available Johnson's wax so that I don't have
to wait for something to come in the mail. Then, if I understand it
correctly, I just lay the fiberglass on top of the waxed mold and squeegee
the resin in. I'm assuming that the dried wax won't interfere with the
resin during the cure. I don't know anything about gel coat. I'm going to
Google gel coat to try and learn about it. Any tips or info about gel coat
would certainly be appreciated. Otherwise, I was just planning on smoothing
the cured fiberglass cowl with microballoons and resin, or bondo. Once that
is done I was planning on cutting the cowl in half with my Dremel. I'm
thinking this will make removal from the mold easier and I want it to be
split anyway for maintenance access without removing the prop. Once the
cowl is on the workbench I can put the finishing touches on it and then
paint it. Thanks again guys.

Mike
044SR

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:31 am**

Mike and Ken.

I agree with making a female mold. It gives you a way to make another part should this one not be what you think it should be. Ken in right, the foam parat that you see now will be duplicated with a female mold and then make a part from that.

Regarding Gel Coat, first, you do not have to lay the cloth and resin in while the gel coat is wet. Let it dry, make sure you put at least 3 good coats on it. Gel Coat is a polyester type product, just like polyester resin. Same resin you get at auto store. Uses MEPK as an activator. BTW, all this stuff is bad to breath. I use Vinyl Ester. Same agents but higher impact characteristics. Ok let me get back to the gel coat issue. The resin and cloth will bond permanately with the gel coat, just lightly sand the gel coat (150 grit) prior and it will bond great.

Some people do not have a problem with johnson past wax, some do. What happens is the paint (gel coat) sometimes will not be compatible and you end up with "fish eyes" in the finish. This act like a contaminate and the divits (fish eyes) ruin the finish. By using a PVA mold release, you eliminate this tendency.

This is how I do it, spray primer over plug, lightly sand and make smooth, apply PVA wax and or PVA mold release, let dry. Spray in Gel Coat, let dry, lightly sand with 150 grit, lay of coth and resin. Once dry, blow air between part and that's it.

Do make a mold, other may be calling you for a part or you might need to make 2 for yourself.

Dave Fife
3D Composite Parts

Man, am I winded......

Ken <klehman@albedo.net> wrote:
couple more amateur thoughts then FWIW Mike...

With a female mold the finished nose bowl will have the same exterior
dimensions as your foam sculpture. You would paint a layer of gel coat
in the female mold then immediately apply your resin and mat for a
smooth essentially finished nose bowl. You won't see any matting as it
will be under the gel coat. The thing is that if you have a nice smooth
foam sculpture it is easy to make a nice smooth mold and then easy to
get a nice finish on the exterior of the nose bowl. And that nice finish
will be the gel coat. I think some folks can get a lighter part using
this method?? I also liked that I could get a second chance to make the
final piece if I messed up the first one too badly.

The way you are planning it, don't forget to allow for the nose bowl
ending up a bit larger than your foam sculpture. I don't believe there
is any call for gel coat with that method but I have not tried it. It
won't matter though if your foam sculpture is less than perfect as you
will have to fill and sand the exterior to final smoothness anyway.
Bingelis seemed to think that it was about the same amount of work with
either method.

Ken

Mike Kimball wrote:

Wow, far more great responses than I hoped for! Thanks guys! To clarify, I
am not trying to create a female mold. I plan to prepare the sculpted cowl
in place on the airplane and then fiberglass in place. I'm nearly finished
with the sculpting. I have done it completely using the eyeball method.
When it looks good to my eyeballs, I'm going to seal the foam with spackling
and then paint it as suggested. Enamel paint OK? That's easy to get in
spray cans. Then I'll cover that with the mold release. I'm glad to hear
that one can just use readily available Johnson's wax so that I don't have
to wait for something to come in the mail. Then, if I understand it
correctly, I just lay the fiberglass on top of the waxed mold and squeegee
the resin in. I'm assuming that the dried wax won't interfere with the
resin during the cure. I don't know anything about gel coat. I'm going to
Google gel coat to try and learn about it. Any tips or info about gel coat
would certainly be appreciated. Otherwise, I was just planning on smoothing
the cured fiberglass cowl with microballoons and resin, or bondo. Once that
is done I was planning on cutting the cowl in half with my Dremel. I'm
thinking this will make removal from the mold easier and I want it to be
split anyway for maintenance access without removing the prop. Once the
cowl is on the workbench I can put the finishing touches on it and then
paint it. Thanks again guys.

Mike
044SR

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David K. Fife
3D Composite Aircraft Parts Inc.
428 N. Linwood Beach Rd
Linwood, MI. 48634
989-697-3277
Long EZ in progress.

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:31 am**

Dave,
Does your activity on the list mean you are back in buisness? If so, I would
like to get some wingtips.
Jesse

From: Dave Fife <aircrafttips@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Mold release opinions?
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 20:06:20 -0800 (PST)

Mike and Ken.

I agree with making a female mold. It gives you a way to make another
part should this one not be what you think it should be. Ken in right,
the foam parat that you see now will be duplicated with a female mold and
then make a part from that.

Regarding Gel Coat, first, you do not have to lay the cloth and resin
in while the gel coat is wet. Let it dry, make sure you put at least 3
good coats on it. Gel Coat is a polyester type product, just like
polyester resin. Same resin you get at auto store. Uses MEPK as an
activator. BTW, all this stuff is bad to breath. I use Vinyl Ester. Same
agents but higher impact characteristics. Ok let me get back to the gel
coat issue. The resin and cloth will bond permanately with the gel coat,
just lightly sand the gel coat (150 grit) prior and it will bond great.

Some people do not have a problem with johnson past wax, some do. What
happens is the paint (gel coat) sometimes will not be compatible and you
end up with "fish eyes" in the finish. This act like a contaminate and the
divits (fish eyes) ruin the finish. By using a PVA mold release, you
eliminate this tendency.

This is how I do it, spray primer over plug, lightly sand and make
smooth, apply PVA wax and or PVA mold release, let dry. Spray in Gel
Coat, let dry, lightly sand with 150 grit, lay of coth and resin. Once
dry, blow air between part and that's it.

Do make a mold, other may be calling you for a part or you might need
to make 2 for yourself.

Dave Fife
3D Composite Parts

Man, am I winded......

Ken <klehman@albedo.net> wrote:
couple more amateur thoughts then FWIW Mike...

With a female mold the finished nose bowl will have the same exterior
dimensions as your foam sculpture. You would paint a layer of gel coat
in the female mold then immediately apply your resin and mat for a
smooth essentially finished nose bowl. You won't see any matting as it
will be under the gel coat. The thing is that if you have a nice smooth
foam sculpture it is easy to make a nice smooth mold and then easy to
get a nice finish on the exterior of the nose bowl. And that nice finish
will be the gel coat. I think some folks can get a lighter part using
this method?? I also liked that I could get a second chance to make the
final piece if I messed up the first one too badly.

The way you are planning it, don't forget to allow for the nose bowl
ending up a bit larger than your foam sculpture. I don't believe there
is any call for gel coat with that method but I have not tried it. It
won't matter though if your foam sculpture is less than perfect as you
will have to fill and sand the exterior to final smoothness anyway.
Bingelis seemed to think that it was about the same amount of work with
either method.

Ken

Mike Kimball wrote:

Wow, far more great responses than I hoped for! Thanks guys! To clarify,
I
am not trying to create a female mold. I plan to prepare the sculpted
cowl
in place on the airplane and then fiberglass in place. I'm nearly
finished
with the sculpting. I have done it completely using the eyeball method.
When it looks good to my eyeballs, I'm going to seal the foam with
spackling
and then paint it as suggested. Enamel paint OK? That's easy to get in
spray cans. Then I'll cover that with the mold release. I'm glad to hear
that one can just use readily available Johnson's wax so that I don't
have
to wait for something to come in the mail. Then, if I understand it
correctly, I just lay the fiberglass on top of the waxed mold and
squeegee
the resin in. I'm assuming that the dried wax won't interfere with the
resin during the cure. I don't know anything about gel coat. I'm going to
Google gel coat to try and learn about it. Any tips or info about gel
coat
would certainly be appreciated. Otherwise, I was just planning on
smoothing
the cured fiberglass cowl with microballoons and resin, or bondo. Once
that
is done I was planning on cutting the cowl in half with my Dremel. I'm
thinking this will make removal from the mold easier and I want it to be
split anyway for maintenance access without removing the prop. Once the
cowl is on the workbench I can put the finishing touches on it and then
paint it. Thanks again guys.

Mike
044SR

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David K. Fife
3D Composite Aircraft Parts Inc.
428 N. Linwood Beach Rd
Linwood, MI. 48634
989-697-3277
Long EZ in progress.

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Brings words and photos together (easily) with
PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.

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