The Murphy Builders Site

Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:26 am**

Practice on a scrap piece,,,but some very SLIGHT shrinking should roll the
nose of the door over enough it will sit flat.

Can't comment for sure on Elite elevator need. It's bigger than the Rebel so
I would think that if 25* works for the Rebel it would be more than enough
for the Elite. Can't see the need for more than 12* down.

Glad to hear you making progress again Jeffrey!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeffrey Steenson" <jsteenson1@comcast.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 9:20 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Elite Elevator Travel

Dear Builders,

I was checking the message archives today and found some information on
rigging the elevator -- Brian suggested 10 degrees down and 20 degrees up
would suffice ... Bob suggests 25-30 degrees up.

Without cutting the stick down I can get about 12 degrees down to 25 up
(plus or minus playing with the turnbuckles). Do you this is enough to

get

the nose down for stall recovery?

Almost ready for the procession to the airport and wing attach.

By the way, I built the four-door cowl with the aluminum strip around the
nosebowl. Is there any trick to getting the forward edges of the aluminum
doors to lay down flush? I'm not expert with the shrinker/stretcher.

Jeffrey Steenson
E714

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:26 am**

Nope, you need at least +25 and -15, and you have to cut the stick to get
it. I'm an Elite builder, so not talking from Rebel only experience. When
you cut the stick, you'll find you don't really have enough to get a good
straight grip portion. I solved that by having MAM send me a couple of
Moose sticks with just one bend. I then cut these off at an angle and
welded the tops back on. That way, you get a decent straight grip. The
Moose sticks are chromoly, so easier to weld.

An alternative that I might try if I did it again is to have a pushrod
coming forward from the top elevator horn to a bellcrank just ahead of the
rear bulkhead, The bellcrank would gear the system up about 25%, thus
reducing stick travel. But that might make it a bit too sensive for some,
and is a fairly significant mod to a rather critical system.

Al

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:26 am**

I'm confused Al. Jeffrey says he can get 25 up and 12 down with his current
stick set up. Do you think that getting 3 degrees more down is critical???
What do you use that much down elevator for? The only time I use full down
elevator is to lift the tail up out of the snow, with prop blast, when I am
not running a tail ski..

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 10:58 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Elite Elevator Travel

Nope, you need at least +25 and -15, and you have to cut the stick to get
it. I'm an Elite builder, so not talking from Rebel only experience.

When

you cut the stick, you'll find you don't really have enough to get a good
straight grip portion. I solved that by having MAM send me a couple of
Moose sticks with just one bend. I then cut these off at an angle and
welded the tops back on. That way, you get a decent straight grip. The
Moose sticks are chromoly, so easier to weld.

An alternative that I might try if I did it again is to have a pushrod
coming forward from the top elevator horn to a bellcrank just ahead of the
rear bulkhead, The bellcrank would gear the system up about 25%, thus
reducing stick travel. But that might make it a bit too sensive for some,
and is a fairly significant mod to a rather critical system.

Al

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:26 am**

It looks like I could get the stick grip on the remaining tube if I cut it
down, but it seems kind of drastic. Is this what MAM is suggesting?

Jeffrey

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 9:09 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Elite Elevator Travel

I'm confused Al. Jeffrey says he can get 25 up and 12 down with his
current
stick set up. Do you think that getting 3 degrees more down is critical???
What do you use that much down elevator for? The only time I use full down
elevator is to lift the tail up out of the snow, with prop blast, when I
am
not running a tail ski..

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 10:58 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Elite Elevator Travel

Nope, you need at least +25 and -15, and you have to cut the stick to get
it. I'm an Elite builder, so not talking from Rebel only experience.
When
you cut the stick, you'll find you don't really have enough to get a good
straight grip portion. I solved that by having MAM send me a couple of
Moose sticks with just one bend. I then cut these off at an angle and
welded the tops back on. That way, you get a decent straight grip. The
Moose sticks are chromoly, so easier to weld.

An alternative that I might try if I did it again is to have a pushrod
coming forward from the top elevator horn to a bellcrank just ahead of
the
rear bulkhead, The bellcrank would gear the system up about 25%, thus
reducing stick travel. But that might make it a bit too sensive for
some,
and is a fairly significant mod to a rather critical system.

Al

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:26 am**

Wayne,

What about spin recovery, or flat spin? That extra 3* down elevator might come in handy.

Bruce G

-----Original Message-----

From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
Sent: Feb 26, 2006 11:09 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Elite Elevator Travel

I'm confused Al. Jeffrey says he can get 25 up and 12 down with his current
stick set up. Do you think that getting 3 degrees more down is critical???
What do you use that much down elevator for? The only time I use full down
elevator is to lift the tail up out of the snow, with prop blast, when I am
not running a tail ski..

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 10:58 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Elite Elevator Travel

Nope, you need at least +25 and -15, and you have to cut the stick to get
it. I'm an Elite builder, so not talking from Rebel only experience.
When
you cut the stick, you'll find you don't really have enough to get a good
straight grip portion. I solved that by having MAM send me a couple of
Moose sticks with just one bend. I then cut these off at an angle and
welded the tops back on. That way, you get a decent straight grip. The
Moose sticks are chromoly, so easier to weld.

An alternative that I might try if I did it again is to have a pushrod
coming forward from the top elevator horn to a bellcrank just ahead of the
rear bulkhead, The bellcrank would gear the system up about 25%, thus
reducing stick travel. But that might make it a bit too sensive for some,
and is a fairly significant mod to a rather critical system.

Al

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:26 am**

Sure it might...but 3 degrees! Based on the Rebel recovering from a stall on
it's own with the elevator held full UP. I doubt negative elevator would be
needed at any point, let alone that extra 3*...but I've been wrong before.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Georgen" <bgeorgen@peoplepc.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 12:06 AM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Elite Elevator Travel

Wayne,

What about spin recovery, or flat spin? That extra 3* down elevator might

come in handy.

Bruce G

-----Original Message-----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
Sent: Feb 26, 2006 11:09 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Elite Elevator Travel

I'm confused Al. Jeffrey says he can get 25 up and 12 down with his

current

stick set up. Do you think that getting 3 degrees more down is

critical???

What do you use that much down elevator for? The only time I use full

down

elevator is to lift the tail up out of the snow, with prop blast, when I

am

not running a tail ski..

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 10:58 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Elite Elevator Travel

Nope, you need at least +25 and -15, and you have to cut the stick to

get

it. I'm an Elite builder, so not talking from Rebel only experience.
When
you cut the stick, you'll find you don't really have enough to get a

good

straight grip portion. I solved that by having MAM send me a couple of
Moose sticks with just one bend. I then cut these off at an angle and
welded the tops back on. That way, you get a decent straight grip.

The

Moose sticks are chromoly, so easier to weld.

An alternative that I might try if I did it again is to have a pushrod
coming forward from the top elevator horn to a bellcrank just ahead of

the

rear bulkhead, The bellcrank would gear the system up about 25%, thus
reducing stick travel. But that might make it a bit too sensive for

some,

and is a fairly significant mod to a rather critical system.

Al

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:26 am**

Wayne et al:

To get the travel I quoted, I need to push the stick a good 2 1/2" forward
of the panel, WITH THE WAY I'VE RIGGED THE STICK. Now, the amount of up
elevator you get in practice depends not just on the rear stop position, but
on the seat position, the size of your gut and certain other appendages. My
legs are fairly long (35 1/2" inside seam, won't boast about the other
appendages), so if anything I've assumed the seat might further back than
your average pilot might, though I didn't size it for yours truly only.
Everything then went from that "maximum acceptabe rearward travel" point,
not the maximum geometrically possible. Of course, that point is rather
subjective. As for forward travel, spin recovery is the key position that
you're going to hold for any length of time, but if you stall the airplane
momentarily, you might well want a quick pulse of down, and 12 degrees just
looks like that's getting kind of marginal. Also, when you measure that 12
degrees, am I right in thinking that's with the stick hard against the
panel? What about switches etc. in the entire arc covered by the top of the
stick? And what about the thickness of the grip, your fingers, gloves,
etc., plus an allowance for you not wanting to mash said fingers against
said switches? I bet you're closer to -5 degrees.

Now, my airplane on floats flies around with a fair bit of up elevator,
particularly at approach speed, so in fact I effectively have more down
avalable than -15, though I have re-rigged the stab to try to reduce this
(didn't think to check it when I flew home from the paint shop - too darned
cold). I guess it just boils down to how much you feel comfortable with.
You're sure as hell not going to get the -25 called for in the instructions.
And I'm not about to spin test the thing on amphibs to tell you how much is
enough!

Cutting the stick is not a big deal, though I must admit I'd rather have it
a bit longer in cruise. You tend to fly with your wrist on your knee and
just grip the stick at the top with a couple of fingers. I'd rather have
the stick about 3" above knee level. But fears about over-sensitivity are
not justified, at least with the modified elevator. As I said, if I was
doing it again, I'd put in an amplifier bellcrank somewhere in the system
and live with even more sensitivity to get the nicer feel of a longer stick.
You can lengthen the horns on the control column a little without touching
the floor, and if you raise the pivot brackets, you could do so even more.
That might be enough. But if you do that, you'll have to do some welding on
the colum to beef up the longer horns. So, yah pays yer money and yah takes
yer choice. The only thing I think that has the potential to really bite
you is too little down or up elevator.

Al

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:26 am**

Thanks Al. I was just curious why you'd stated Jeffrey's wasn't good enough
missing 3 degrees down elevator compared to yours and he has the stock stick
set up still. I'm assuming Jeffrey has sat in there to see if he can bring
it all the way back...but if you met Jeffrey you'd know he'll be sitting a
WAY back from where most of us do.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Elite Elevator Travel

Wayne et al:

To get the travel I quoted, I need to push the stick a good 2 1/2" forward
of the panel, WITH THE WAY I'VE RIGGED THE STICK. Now, the amount of up
elevator you get in practice depends not just on the rear stop position,

but

on the seat position, the size of your gut and certain other appendages.

My

legs are fairly long (35 1/2" inside seam, won't boast about the other
appendages), so if anything I've assumed the seat might further back than
your average pilot might, though I didn't size it for yours truly only.
Everything then went from that "maximum acceptabe rearward travel" point,
not the maximum geometrically possible. Of course, that point is rather
subjective. As for forward travel, spin recovery is the key position that
you're going to hold for any length of time, but if you stall the airplane
momentarily, you might well want a quick pulse of down, and 12 degrees

just

looks like that's getting kind of marginal. Also, when you measure that

12

degrees, am I right in thinking that's with the stick hard against the
panel? What about switches etc. in the entire arc covered by the top of

the

stick? And what about the thickness of the grip, your fingers, gloves,
etc., plus an allowance for you not wanting to mash said fingers against
said switches? I bet you're closer to -5 degrees.

Now, my airplane on floats flies around with a fair bit of up elevator,
particularly at approach speed, so in fact I effectively have more down
avalable than -15, though I have re-rigged the stab to try to reduce this
(didn't think to check it when I flew home from the paint shop - too

darned

cold). I guess it just boils down to how much you feel comfortable with.
You're sure as hell not going to get the -25 called for in the

instructions.

And I'm not about to spin test the thing on amphibs to tell you how much

is

enough!

Cutting the stick is not a big deal, though I must admit I'd rather have

it

a bit longer in cruise. You tend to fly with your wrist on your knee and
just grip the stick at the top with a couple of fingers. I'd rather have
the stick about 3" above knee level. But fears about over-sensitivity are
not justified, at least with the modified elevator. As I said, if I was
doing it again, I'd put in an amplifier bellcrank somewhere in the system
and live with even more sensitivity to get the nicer feel of a longer

stick.

You can lengthen the horns on the control column a little without touching
the floor, and if you raise the pivot brackets, you could do so even more.
That might be enough. But if you do that, you'll have to do some welding

on

the colum to beef up the longer horns. So, yah pays yer money and yah

takes

yer choice. The only thing I think that has the potential to really bite
you is too little down or up elevator.

Al

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:26 am**

Dear Wayne and Al,

For sure I can pull it all the way back to the stops, and I can really get
12 degrees forward. I noticed that my control sticks aren't perfectly
symmetrical, and the pax stick hits the panel when there is still 3/4" on
the pilot's side. I did write to MAM today to ask about elevator travel,
and if I get a reply, it will be interesting to compare with what they told
Al.

I appreciate the advice! How about a few stalls on the amphibs, just to see
what is needed?!

Jeffrey
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Elite Elevator Travel

Thanks Al. I was just curious why you'd stated Jeffrey's wasn't good
enough
missing 3 degrees down elevator compared to yours and he has the stock
stick
set up still. I'm assuming Jeffrey has sat in there to see if he can bring
it all the way back...but if you met Jeffrey you'd know he'll be sitting a
WAY back from where most of us do.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Elite Elevator Travel

Wayne et al:

To get the travel I quoted, I need to push the stick a good 2 1/2"
forward
of the panel, WITH THE WAY I'VE RIGGED THE STICK. Now, the amount of up
elevator you get in practice depends not just on the rear stop position,
but
on the seat position, the size of your gut and certain other appendages.
My
legs are fairly long (35 1/2" inside seam, won't boast about the other
appendages), so if anything I've assumed the seat might further back than
your average pilot might, though I didn't size it for yours truly only.
Everything then went from that "maximum acceptabe rearward travel" point,
not the maximum geometrically possible. Of course, that point is rather
subjective. As for forward travel, spin recovery is the key position
that
you're going to hold for any length of time, but if you stall the
airplane
momentarily, you might well want a quick pulse of down, and 12 degrees
just
looks like that's getting kind of marginal. Also, when you measure that
12
degrees, am I right in thinking that's with the stick hard against the
panel? What about switches etc. in the entire arc covered by the top of
the
stick? And what about the thickness of the grip, your fingers, gloves,
etc., plus an allowance for you not wanting to mash said fingers against
said switches? I bet you're closer to -5 degrees.

Now, my airplane on floats flies around with a fair bit of up elevator,
particularly at approach speed, so in fact I effectively have more down
avalable than -15, though I have re-rigged the stab to try to reduce this
(didn't think to check it when I flew home from the paint shop - too
darned
cold). I guess it just boils down to how much you feel comfortable with.
You're sure as hell not going to get the -25 called for in the
instructions.
And I'm not about to spin test the thing on amphibs to tell you how much
is
enough!

Cutting the stick is not a big deal, though I must admit I'd rather have
it
a bit longer in cruise. You tend to fly with your wrist on your knee and
just grip the stick at the top with a couple of fingers. I'd rather have
the stick about 3" above knee level. But fears about over-sensitivity
are
not justified, at least with the modified elevator. As I said, if I was
doing it again, I'd put in an amplifier bellcrank somewhere in the system
and live with even more sensitivity to get the nicer feel of a longer
stick.
You can lengthen the horns on the control column a little without
touching
the floor, and if you raise the pivot brackets, you could do so even
more.
That might be enough. But if you do that, you'll have to do some welding
on
the colum to beef up the longer horns. So, yah pays yer money and yah
takes
yer choice. The only thing I think that has the potential to really bite
you is too little down or up elevator.

Al

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:26 am**

Jeffrey,
With that stock stick, don't you have a problem with the stick in your lap
and trying to put in aileron for a crosswind? or what about when the stick
is full forward, can you get aileron travel with out hitting the panel? I
added to my control horns to make less stick movement and more elevator
travel, and then in the process made the sticks longer with the offset bend
higher on the stick to allow crosswind movement in your lap. I haven't
finalized this plan yet, waiting for a machine shop to make my control tube
extensions.
Mike Betti
771E
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeffrey Steenson" <jsteenson1@comcast.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 8:46 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Elite Elevator Travel

Dear Wayne and Al,

For sure I can pull it all the way back to the stops, and I can really get
12 degrees forward. I noticed that my control sticks aren't perfectly
symmetrical, and the pax stick hits the panel when there is still 3/4" on
the pilot's side. I did write to MAM today to ask about elevator travel,
and if I get a reply, it will be interesting to compare with what they
told
Al.

I appreciate the advice! How about a few stalls on the amphibs, just to
see
what is needed?!

Jeffrey
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Elite Elevator Travel

Thanks Al. I was just curious why you'd stated Jeffrey's wasn't good
enough
missing 3 degrees down elevator compared to yours and he has the stock
stick
set up still. I'm assuming Jeffrey has sat in there to see if he can
bring
it all the way back...but if you met Jeffrey you'd know he'll be sitting
a
WAY back from where most of us do.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Elite Elevator Travel

Wayne et al:

To get the travel I quoted, I need to push the stick a good 2 1/2"
forward
of the panel, WITH THE WAY I'VE RIGGED THE STICK. Now, the amount of up
elevator you get in practice depends not just on the rear stop position,
but
on the seat position, the size of your gut and certain other appendages.
My
legs are fairly long (35 1/2" inside seam, won't boast about the other
appendages), so if anything I've assumed the seat might further back
than
your average pilot might, though I didn't size it for yours truly only.
Everything then went from that "maximum acceptabe rearward travel"
point,
not the maximum geometrically possible. Of course, that point is rather
subjective. As for forward travel, spin recovery is the key position
that
you're going to hold for any length of time, but if you stall the
airplane
momentarily, you might well want a quick pulse of down, and 12 degrees
just
looks like that's getting kind of marginal. Also, when you measure that
12
degrees, am I right in thinking that's with the stick hard against the
panel? What about switches etc. in the entire arc covered by the top of
the
stick? And what about the thickness of the grip, your fingers, gloves,
etc., plus an allowance for you not wanting to mash said fingers against
said switches? I bet you're closer to -5 degrees.

Now, my airplane on floats flies around with a fair bit of up elevator,
particularly at approach speed, so in fact I effectively have more down
avalable than -15, though I have re-rigged the stab to try to reduce
this
(didn't think to check it when I flew home from the paint shop - too
darned
cold). I guess it just boils down to how much you feel comfortable
with.
You're sure as hell not going to get the -25 called for in the
instructions.
And I'm not about to spin test the thing on amphibs to tell you how much
is
enough!

Cutting the stick is not a big deal, though I must admit I'd rather
have
it
a bit longer in cruise. You tend to fly with your wrist on your knee
and
just grip the stick at the top with a couple of fingers. I'd rather
have
the stick about 3" above knee level. But fears about over-sensitivity
are
not justified, at least with the modified elevator. As I said, if I was
doing it again, I'd put in an amplifier bellcrank somewhere in the
system
and live with even more sensitivity to get the nicer feel of a longer
stick.
You can lengthen the horns on the control column a little without
touching
the floor, and if you raise the pivot brackets, you could do so even
more.
That might be enough. But if you do that, you'll have to do some
welding
on
the colum to beef up the longer horns. So, yah pays yer money and yah
takes
yer choice. The only thing I think that has the potential to really
bite
you is too little down or up elevator.

Al

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:26 am**

Hi Jeffrey !

I can tell you for sure that you don't need ANY forward stick to
recover from a stall on amphibs, or wheels, with the Elite !
Just relax, to a bit aft of neutral, and you'll be flying again easily....
Ditto for spins on wheels - - don't know about amphibs, and not toooo
anxious to try !

Might be worth re-bending your pax stick to get back that 3/4" -
might just be enough to give you the 15 degrees negative !

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Monday 27 February 2006 09:46 pm, Jeffrey Steenson wrote:

Dear Wayne and Al,

For sure I can pull it all the way back to the stops, and I can really
get 12 degrees forward. I noticed that my control sticks aren't
perfectly symmetrical, and the pax stick hits the panel when there is
still 3/4" on the pilot's side. I did write to MAM today to ask about
elevator travel, and if I get a reply, it will be interesting to compare
with what they told Al.

I appreciate the advice! How about a few stalls on the amphibs, just to
see what is needed?!

Jeffrey
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Elite Elevator Travel

Thanks Al. I was just curious why you'd stated Jeffrey's wasn't good
enough
missing 3 degrees down elevator compared to yours and he has the stock
stick
set up still. I'm assuming Jeffrey has sat in there to see if he can
bring it all the way back...but if you met Jeffrey you'd know he'll be
sitting a WAY back from where most of us do.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Elite Elevator Travel

Wayne et al:

To get the travel I quoted, I need to push the stick a good 2 1/2"
forward
of the panel, WITH THE WAY I'VE RIGGED THE STICK. Now, the amount of
up elevator you get in practice depends not just on the rear stop
position,
but

on the seat position, the size of your gut and certain other
appendages.
My

legs are fairly long (35 1/2" inside seam, won't boast about the other
appendages), so if anything I've assumed the seat might further back
than your average pilot might, though I didn't size it for yours truly
only. Everything then went from that "maximum acceptabe rearward
travel" point, not the maximum geometrically possible. Of course,
that point is rather subjective. As for forward travel, spin recovery
is the key position that
you're going to hold for any length of time, but if you stall the
airplane
momentarily, you might well want a quick pulse of down, and 12 degrees
just

looks like that's getting kind of marginal. Also, when you measure
that
12

degrees, am I right in thinking that's with the stick hard against the
panel? What about switches etc. in the entire arc covered by the top
of
the

stick? And what about the thickness of the grip, your fingers,
gloves, etc., plus an allowance for you not wanting to mash said
fingers against said switches? I bet you're closer to -5 degrees.

Now, my airplane on floats flies around with a fair bit of up
elevator, particularly at approach speed, so in fact I effectively
have more down avalable than -15, though I have re-rigged the stab to
try to reduce this (didn't think to check it when I flew home from the
paint shop - too
darned

cold). I guess it just boils down to how much you feel comfortable
with. You're sure as hell not going to get the -25 called for in the
instructions.

And I'm not about to spin test the thing on amphibs to tell you how
much
is

enough!

Cutting the stick is not a big deal, though I must admit I'd rather
have
it

a bit longer in cruise. You tend to fly with your wrist on your knee
and just grip the stick at the top with a couple of fingers. I'd
rather have the stick about 3" above knee level. But fears about
over-sensitivity are
not justified, at least with the modified elevator. As I said, if I
was doing it again, I'd put in an amplifier bellcrank somewhere in the
system and live with even more sensitivity to get the nicer feel of a
longer
stick.

You can lengthen the horns on the control column a little without
touching
the floor, and if you raise the pivot brackets, you could do so even
more.
That might be enough. But if you do that, you'll have to do some
welding
on

the colum to beef up the longer horns. So, yah pays yer money and yah
takes

yer choice. The only thing I think that has the potential to really
bite you is too little down or up elevator.

Al

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:26 am**

Well, at least we're having an interesting discussion and we haven't drifted
off topic yet. Mike, how much did you extend the control column horns? Did
you raise the control column axis at all? I tend to share Mike's concern
about the ability to achieve aileron inputs at full travel.

The stall on amphibs is quite benign, and as Bob says, only very moderate
down elevator is required. But these are your typical reduced power stalls
from a cruising attitude. I remember doing a departure stall with a student
in a Mooney executive one day. Wer're talking full power and a high nose
attitude. That produced a quarter turn spin in the blink of an eye
(fortunately I'd chosen to do it at 5,000'), and I was glad of every
available degree of down elevator.

If it gets a little milder, I should go up and see what difference changing
the stab incidence has made. I put an 0.062" shim under the rear stab
attach brackets.

Up elevator travel appears to be lesss of an issue on the Elite than it is
on the Rebel. Mike Wiebe commented that the Rebel tends to run out of up
elevator at low speed on final, and thought we were headed for the bottom of
the lake on his first Elite approach, but we rounded out just fine. I come
across "the fence" at around 55 knots. Might not be so pretty at 45!

Al

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:26 am**

The control horns have 1/2" added to them. I didn't have to raise the control column, the horn just clears. I then added 3" to the stick and raised the offset bends as high as possible. I don't have the final pieces in the plane yet, but I did have mock ups and it looked ok. I think the idea thing would be to move the control column back a few inches.
Mike Betti

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 06:57:44 -0500, rebel-builders@dcsol.com said:

Well, at least we're having an interesting discussion and we haven't drifted
off topic yet. Mike, how much did you extend the control column horns? Did
you raise the control column axis at all? I tend to share Mike's concern
about the ability to achieve aileron inputs at full travel.

The stall on amphibs is quite benign, and as Bob says, only very moderate
down elevator is required. But these are your typical reduced power stalls
from a cruising attitude. I remember doing a departure stall with a student
in a Mooney executive one day. Wer're talking full power and a high nose
attitude. That produced a quarter turn spin in the blink of an eye
(fortunately I'd chosen to do it at 5,000'), and I was glad of every
available degree of down elevator.

If it gets a little milder, I should go up and see what difference changing
the stab incidence has made. I put an 0.062" shim under the rear stab
attach brackets.

Up elevator travel appears to be lesss of an issue on the Elite than it is
on the Rebel. Mike Wiebe commented that the Rebel tends to run out of up
elevator at low speed on final, and thought we were headed for the bottom of
the lake on his first Elite approach, but we rounded out just fine. I come
across "the fence" at around 55 knots. Might not be so pretty at 45!

Al

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:26 am**

Here's a pic of it.
www.mikeselite.com/images/controlhorn1.jpg

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 06:57:44 -0500, rebel-builders@dcsol.com said:

Well, at least we're having an interesting discussion and we haven't drifted
off topic yet. Mike, how much did you extend the control column horns? Did
you raise the control column axis at all? I tend to share Mike's concern
about the ability to achieve aileron inputs at full travel.

The stall on amphibs is quite benign, and as Bob says, only very moderate
down elevator is required. But these are your typical reduced power stalls
from a cruising attitude. I remember doing a departure stall with a student
in a Mooney executive one day. Wer're talking full power and a high nose
attitude. That produced a quarter turn spin in the blink of an eye
(fortunately I'd chosen to do it at 5,000'), and I was glad of every
available degree of down elevator.

If it gets a little milder, I should go up and see what difference changing
the stab incidence has made. I put an 0.062" shim under the rear stab
attach brackets.

Up elevator travel appears to be lesss of an issue on the Elite than it is
on the Rebel. Mike Wiebe commented that the Rebel tends to run out of up
elevator at low speed on final, and thought we were headed for the bottom of
the lake on his first Elite approach, but we rounded out just fine. I come
across "the fence" at around 55 knots. Might not be so pretty at 45!

Al

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Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:27 am**

Wayne---Just starting stab on Elite---what mods did you do to soften pitch
and how much would you add to stab angle to do away with added trim----Roy
Pinner--- Elite #799 thanks

-------Original Message-------

From: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Date: 02/27/06 19:40:28
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Elite Elevator Travel

Wayne et al:

To get the travel I quoted, I need to push the stick a good 2 1/2" forward
of the panel, WITH THE WAY I'VE RIGGED THE STICK. Now, the amount of up
elevator you get in practice depends not just on the rear stop position, but
on the seat position, the size of your gut and certain other appendages. My
legs are fairly long (35 1/2" inside seam, won't boast about the other
appendages), so if anything I've assumed the seat might further back than
your average pilot might, though I didn't size it for yours truly only.
Everything then went from that "maximum acceptabe rearward travel" point,
not the maximum geometrically possible. Of course, that point is rather
subjective. As for forward travel, spin recovery is the key position that
you're going to hold for any length of time, but if you stall the airplane
momentarily, you might well want a quick pulse of down, and 12 degrees just
looks like that's getting kind of marginal. Also, when you measure that 12
degrees, am I right in thinking that's with the stick hard against the
panel? What about switches etc. in the entire arc covered by the top of the
stick? And what about the thickness of the grip, your fingers, gloves,
etc., plus an allowance for you not wanting to mash said fingers against
said switches? I bet you're closer to -5 degrees.

Now, my airplane on floats flies around with a fair bit of up elevator,
particularly at approach speed, so in fact I effectively have more down
avalable than -15, though I have re-rigged the stab to try to reduce this
(didn't think to check it when I flew home from the paint shop - too darned
cold). I guess it just boils down to how much you feel comfortable with.
You're sure as hell not going to get the -25 called for in the instructions.
And I'm not about to spin test the thing on amphibs to tell you how much is
enough!

Cutting the stick is not a big deal, though I must admit I'd rather have it
a bit longer in cruise. You tend to fly with your wrist on your knee and
just grip the stick at the top with a couple of fingers. I'd rather have
the stick about 3" above knee level. But fears about over-sensitivity are
not justified, at least with the modified elevator. As I said, if I was
doing it again, I'd put in an amplifier bellcrank somewhere in the system
and live with even more sensitivity to get the nicer feel of a longer stick.
You can lengthen the horns on the control column a little without touching
the floor, and if you raise the pivot brackets, you could do so even more.
That might be enough. But if you do that, you'll have to do some welding on
the colum to beef up the longer horns. So, yah pays yer money and yah takes
yer choice. The only thing I think that has the potential to really bite
you is too little down or up elevator.

Al

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