The trick for me was to read ahead in the manual, question and confirm anything that didn't make total sense, don't rivet anything in advance until you absolutely have to, and talk to as many other builders as possible during the process. We had a little rag called Rebel Rouser, which was good, too.
The Murphy folks, and many different ones along the way, were always very helpful and fair when dealing with me. Sure, I had to chase them from time to time, but I know they always tried hard and meant well.
Now I realize the Moose is a much bigger and more complex airplane, because it is really an upgrade, and does not have its own manual. So I can't speak from experience there. But when it is suggested that a first time builder can't build a Rebel on his own, I have a little trouble just sitting back and not challenging that statement.
Also, Robin is away right now because of medical reasons, so the impression shouldn't be that he just bailed out.
Walter
----- Original Message -----
From: Brent Blue <brentblue@qwest.net>
Date: Thursday, February 23, 2006 8:45 am
Subject: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders-d] DIGEST - rebel-builders-d
Rob:
There are several things I believe you note ignores.
My serial number is 81. When you say "when I bought my kit",
"when"
are you speaking of.
The manual and factory support is inexcusable. Compared to early
Vans, they both are embarrassing. I have a guy who built a Vans
helping me periodically and listening to him point out differences
in
the manual and support is painful.
Darryl has had so many problems that no one at the company
basically
knows anything about the aircraft. Even Robin has now left. So
calling is useless.
Most significant, Darryl and Murphy Aircraft have and continue to
advertise that the Rebel, SR, and Moose can be built by first time
builders. This is an absolute falsehood. About the only first
time
builders who can finish a Murphy is someone who has a lot of
engineering and building abilities. I freely admit and admitted
to
Darryl and others that I have never build an aircraft nor have any
engineering experience. Darryl had consistent told his sales
staff
(when he had one) to sell the dream, not the product. Well, I
bought
both and for Murphy or anyone else to use the excuse that most
aircraft kit manufacturers are inadequate is like saying that most
doctors don't take time to talk to their patients so don't expect
or
demand more.
A part of the expense I have had to add to the Moose is getting
consultation from experienced folks to fix Moose problems. For
example, as a first time builder with no experience, how could I
possible know the angle limitations for cable runs unless Murphy
states them in the manual. Also, how could I possible know where
and
how to put each pulley. Sure, I could do it but I would be
totally
guessing on locations, etc. Why should I, the first time builder
Darryl advertises to, literally guess on the proper location.
These
are control cables--the kind of things that can cause big problems
if
done wrong--and they want the first time builder to guess on
locations. (Actually, Darryl says the locations in the manual are
adequate but they will not pass inspection from the FAA or CAA.)
As far as my letter, the few changes Darryl has made are ones that
he
has been forced into and even then, he doesn't post them to the
Murphy site. The tail stinger is a classic. And his fix still
isn't
as good as Dale's.
My single greatest amazement on the forum is why in the world
would
anyone defend Darryl and Murphy Aircraft! .
Yes the aircraft idea is good but getting there is more like "here
are most of the parts and an old, inadequate manual--good
luck." That is not what an aircraft company, experimental or not,
should be doing.
Brent
At 05:00 PM 2/22/2006, you wrote:
---------- Digest Message #16 ----------
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 05:36:50 -0800 (PST)
From: robluce1@yahoo.com
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Truth about building and experimental: to Blueraven
The truth that people don't want to hear about
building a experimental aircraft.
I don't read the Rebel list as often as I used to, but
as someone who spent years looking at different kits
before buying a Rebel kit, there are a couple things
that I'd like to point out. These things aren't about
Murphy kits, they're about building airplanes in
general.
What most people forget is that you are -not- building
a plane. You are building an experimental. I don't
care which manufacturer, plans, kit, quick build, all
metal, tube and fabric, composite, or combination, or
all of the above. There isn't a single kit out there
that wont be a challenge, that wont require an
excessive (and I'm saying that word literally,
excessive, way more than what is reasonable) amount of
attention to DETAIL. None of the manufacturers that
I've seen cover all of the bases, that's why they're
EXPERIMENTALS, not airplanes. You're stringing your
own butt into something you built. You are the
manufacturer of the experimental.
Most of the big experimental companies have builders
who exchange ideas over the Internet. Zenith, Vans,
Kitfox, Velocity, Lanceair, Bearhawk (Beartracks) and
Murphy all have very active builders groups. They
-HAVE- to, because none of the experimental companies
make a perfect product. If you go to build ANY
plans/kit/quickbuild, and don't get hooked up with the
builders lists on the Internet, you're asking for
trouble with a capital C, Crash. Every builder will
have a point in the building process of every
experimental where they ask themselves "Is this plane
really safe?" It's nice to be able to talk to real,
live, other builders/pilots of your kit that will tell
you that you're not nuts, the experimental is safe,
and here are the things they did/recommend.
Every set of builders will tell you different things
about their experimental, and the company associated
with it.
If you really want to build a particular type of
aircraft, go help someone build it. It's not hard to
find someone that's building a experimental close to
where you are that's -similar- to what you'd like to
build. Dont stop at one, help several builders. If
the builders seem hesitent to have you help, bring
donuts, I have yet to see that one fail.
I helped someone build a Zenith for years before I
spent any money. I also went and spent hours in
peoples hangers and shops looking at what they were
building (Kitfox's, a Mustang II, a couple RV's, a
Lanceair, a couple Murphy's (Mark Kohut's -very- Super
Rebel 2500 for one (earlier thread)), a couple
different Zenith's), and gave them a hand if they'd
let me help.
Every experimental has warts. You'll find that the
builders know about the warts, point them out freely,
but they don't enjoy feeling as though their
experimental is the -ONLY- one with warts.
With Murphy, Zenith and Vans, I don't care where you
are on the NA contenent, you'll be able to find
someone fairly close by that is building one. Rather
than batting ideas back and forth over the Internet,
put that active curiousity of yours to work and go put
your HANDS on something that is close to your kit,
-while- it is being built.
Also, if I use your math, everything all together,
Rebel Kit, Rotax 912s, all the options (and we bought
nearly all of 'em), was around 28k. There aint -no-
way any experimental will cost the sum of the parts
plus engine. Even if you're a cheap buzzard, you'll
spend a significant percentage more on add-ons,
electronics, and "finish".
Now, specific to the Bearhawk.
If you're getting a kit from Bearhawk Aircraft/AviPro
Ltd, that's a Mexican airplane, not "US". Not that it
means anything, but everything is built, manufactured,
assembled in Mexico using a 100% Mexican labor force.
Ok, cheap shot. :-)
As far as the Bearhawk itself goes, looks like a nice
plane. I'm not a fabric guy myself (I know, the wings
are metal, which is the important part, but still),
but if it fit my budget and my flight profile, I would
have looked harder at it.
As it was, Murphy has been around longer (AviPro Ltd
is a -very- new bird comparitively, not an "American"
company, no real established track record), and in
this business, a company with a longer track record is
worth something. $28k US bought everything, including
engine, for a "real" plane with a 700 lbs useful
(debatably could be higher, and only limited by engine
hp) and an airframe that is rated for an additional
200 lb above that. It'll fly 10+ hours with the
regular tanks, and has a very good track record as far
as safety goes. It's all metal, so no problems
leaving it outside, no long term issues (composite
airframe lifetime or fabric to replace). The kit and
the manufacturer have been around long enough that the
problems have been identified, and the fixes put in
place (firewall etc) or suggestions for improvements
(Ontario mods) are firm. (No, the Moose has not been
around "a long time" like the Rebel.)
The one major gripe that you hear people talk about
the Murphy is the manual. If the Murphy manual is a
issue, then don't look at the Mustang II's. (OMG) :-)
I actually think the Murphy manual is pretty decent,
but they could take a page from Zenith and buy a
digital camera and learn what a PDF is. :-) Most of
the problems would be taken care of if someone got
camera happy at the factory and put pictures (lots and
lots of pictures, digital film is cheap (joke/not a
joke), take thousands) in the manual. The fact is
that the guys working at Murphy are manly men that
don't do documentation. That's for bookworms or
non-manly men that don't build airplanes *grunt
grunt*. (I'm being funny, but it's strangely true,
talk to Stephane, Robin or Darrel and tell me it aint
true.)
As far as Dr. Blue, most of the issues that he's
speaking of were discussed in this email list long
before he bought his kit (remember: excessive
attention to detail). Murphy supports their kit as
well, and in most cases, better than any other
manufacturer. Ask Zenith, Vans, AviPro, Kitfox,
Lanceair (well, Lanceair might do it, for what their
kits cost) if they will write a blank check to their
builders? No company writes a blank check, and before
you buy a kit, you should know just what the kit
manufacturer will do. You are building it, they are
only "suggesting" a design and maybe providing parts,
that's why it's called an experimental. Ultimately,
you buy and build a kit on faith.
Unlimited support/blank checks costs alot more than
$54k US. I simpathize with Dr. Blue, but he knew what
he was getting into before he started. (I might
someday regret saying this, but...) If he didn't, he
should sell the kit now and go buy an actual airplane
like a new Cessna 206.
Rob
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